Battery Insiders Reflection - Energy Access

0:00Transcript

0:00Welcome to Battery Insiders, your podcast providing you insights on the fascinating world of batteries. Hosted by Bhavya Jha and Simon Engelke. And we are back. Hi Bhavya, how are you doing today? It's a wonderful Saturday. How about you? Very good as well. It's actually a very sunny day. Yes, very happy about it. And yeah, we just had a nice session again on this week, energy access, which I think is a really important but also really fascinating topic. There's lots of challenges and lots of opportunities. Maybe just I'll go quickly first, just saying we had a really cool conversation started this week called Harini Hira Devaj. And yeah, she has been working with Mkopa in the past and she has lots of experience in bringing energy systems to sub-Saharan Africa and other places. So what's just really fascinating to hear, I think, from her talking a bit about some of the work that I've been doing and some of her thoughts on this kind of area of energy storage to bring it to developing countries and bring it to places many other people don't think about maybe because they will just focus on how can we electrify like mobility and these like mobility, et cetera, in some Western countries.

1:18What are your thoughts on today's topic? I think the main takeaway I had today was energy access will be possible once we streamline. And that means a few things to me. First off, everyone, a few people actually talked about, you know, simplifying design, standardizing the batteries and making sure that, you know, the infrastructure is there for these technologies to enter different regions of countries and across the world. I think that this is going to play a big role. I also don't think that this isn't already happening. I think countries have taken matters into their own hands and are looking for not only new technologies or creating them, but also are, you know, figuring out ways to get the right resources. The two things that I thought were interesting or, you know, that kind of changed my perspective today is that one, the conversation often revolves around batteries. And personally, I'm guilty of that, but there are other alternative energies. And what do those imply for energy access?

2:31Those were some of the questions I walked away with. And then two is what is actually the country's need and how do the regional differences, how do the regional needs differ? I think, again, I have always defaulted to batteries having worked at Tesla and, you know, just ever since having worked on lithium-ion batteries and researching them and, you know, working abroad in Europe on them. It's the technology that's always been at the forefront of my mind. But what about hydrogen and what else is there? I think these were some of the gaps and questions that I walked away with. Yeah. And I think that hits some really good points. And I think also kind of, you know, what was also mentioned today, right? I mean, if you look at lead acid, right, which was the main kind of, you know, energy storage technology in many, you know, many countries for a long time. I mean, even, you know, even Europe. But I think also lead acid, you know, like, I mean, I, you know, I know these stories and we're also at this today, right, in India, right, where a lot of households would have lead acid batteries as a backup power system, right, because the grid wouldn't be that stable.

3:39Also, you know, in these kind of, you know, more remote locations, a lot of lead acid, which kind of created its own industry, right? People would kind of know how to kind of refresh some of these lead acid batteries. I've seen fascinating videos, you know, where people, you know, have been kind of developing this really like, you know, artesian way of working with less asset batteries. And now you kind of have, you know, this new technology, like lithium-ion batteries, which have many advantages, right, from, you know, from like stability and how long they last and, you know, like much more modular, much smaller, many advantages. But I think now kind of how to integrate this into the local industries, you know, be it, you know, reuse of them, you know, different use cases, being maintaining them, like, you know, in the grid, be it recycling, which is also mentioned today. Yeah, I think this was just really fascinating. Maybe also one thing I found fascinating today is, you know, this discussion about how long battery lasts, right, because, you know, I think Harini also mentioned that, you know, there's often these batteries only last for like two to five years or so in these use cases.

4:37And I think there are different reasons for that. One is we talk about small energy storage systems, right, like maybe let's say one kilowatt hours or so, similar to what we know from scooters, you know, if you're used to electric scooters, something of this range, and actually having a smaller battery allows, you know, less, there's this, you have less balancing, you know, in the battery, like the BMS, et cetera, the cooling, all these kind of things are less present, and you have less opportunity to, to kind of like, you know, balance the cells, which allows you to last them to last longer, which on the other hand is quite different, right, for large energy systems. So, you know, what we are now used to kind of, you know, like mobility, where we have these big batteries, which last much longer than what people ever expected. Actually, if you look at smaller energy systems, actually here, it's, they don't last as long, you know, as these larger batteries.

5:21So they're more kind of in this direction of, you know, what we know from our phones, et cetera, which, you know, lose their capacity quicker. So, yeah, for me, it was just a thought, like, you know, how to deal with this, how to take this into account, how to build the supply chains for, you know, these other use cases where you are based on smaller batteries rather than larger batteries, which last longer. Yeah, you mentioned the warranty that they come with. And I didn't realize, I think one thing I didn't realize is that they are different across regions, too. So here in the U.S., often we say eight to 10 years or maybe even 12. And other use cases or other companies or countries are saying, you know, shorter timelines. And that got me thinking, well, huh, that means that. And then, well, someone else also then mentioned, do we have enough raw material for batteries to be the only way? And, you know, this is something I've thought about a lot, having researched repurposing and recycling.

6:14And then I thought to myself, huh, well, if they are, you know, if the lifetime is two to five years, then you'll be getting these materials back sooner. But obviously, those also support smaller systems. So it kind of is like a, you know, human behavioral question here, too, of like, what is the type of technology and, you know, energy power that we're used to from massive cars and trucks and whatnot? And how could, how might the changing landscape of urban mobility also, you know, make energy more accessible through, like, smaller batteries or, and, you know, more readily available materials as things tend to become more circular? Yeah. And I think it also goes in this direction, right, of, of even availability and supply. Right. I think today it was mentioned, like, you know, where do you get your batteries from, right? Mm-hmm. And for different use cases. And I think we can even see now in the EV space, right? I mean, there's going to be, it looks like there will be quite a lot of shortage coming up.

7:11There already is some for some use cases. And I think, you know, how, how to make sure that there will be enough batteries for these energy access purposes as well. And I think it was mentioned today, right, that, you know, the, the people present, they got their batteries from China, you know, and have like them shipped over there and cetera. And I think it will be quite important also in the long term, right, for, for like a sustainable model to have like a local battery industries, right, in these countries as well. And I think there's so much growth potential, you know, to, to really have these local industries, one on the, you know, you know, on the battery could be production, but could also be reuse, could be recycling, et cetera, to really, you know, have local availability and local use of them most effectively. Yes. I think that goes back to like the infrastructure point, whether it's localizing. I, I, I think ultimately you have to localize management of the life cycle of the technology, whichever clean energy technology it is.

8:07And this is where I put my policy regulatory cap on and think, well, what's going to drive that? And how can these frameworks that exist or need to be modified, make that more possible? You know, we see that in the EU with the battery directive, at least a hint of it. I think in the past couple of weeks, people have mentioned China's and India's policies where batteries are leased, not sold or owned. And, and of course, in the US, I see a lot of area and room to work on this. And then there are all the regions far, far and in between that I'm, I'm sure either have addressed this or, and if they haven't, they all, they are working on it because the conversation has become quite universal. But, you know, in, in, in California, I experienced as a, like, as a resident living there, I, you know, learned that there are policies in place at the state level, not at the national level that can incentivize people to not only purchase, um, sustainable technologies, but also offer some, you know, financial benefits on an annual basis, whether that be through tax returns or some subsidies.

9:18I think that it'll be interesting to see what types of different schemes emerge. Um, I don't know if you know of any already, but what, how are we going to make this financially more possible for the consumer? Um, that's something I am definitely also keeping an eye on. And I thought about during today's conversation too. Absolutely. And I think, you know, that's, that's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really important to have these discussions as well and have these, you know, these, you know, to make it inclusive, right. And I think we're quite concerned with, to have this as a, you know, sustainable, but also inclusive energy transition and for this to be successful, I think we have to, you know, make sure that these different perspectives are also represented. So I'm also very excited. You know, I think today we're really fortunate to actually have, we had people from Nigeria and we had people from, I think, Malaysia and China and, you know, US and Europe, et cetera, lots of different places, you know, and I think what was quite apparent is right.

10:12Like a lot of people care about this topic, um, especially, you know, from an, from an access standpoint, I I'm quite touched also by some of the stories of, um, I'm talking to where it's about, you know, I mean, there's so many billions of people don't have energy access and, um, it's also internet access. And that's often quite connected, right? Because if you don't have electricity, you know, you can't have essentially connected to the internet, right? You don't have any devices to power. So, um, things like that, I think there's a lot of, you know, things connected. And I think there is some, some really great work already out there, but there's so much more, I think, which can, what can be done in the future. Yes, absolutely. I'm excited to see how the conversation continues to grow. We've luckily seen some familiar faces now over the weeks and hopefully this community will also grow. I think I appreciated today that someone called out, okay, let's talk about the global South because I think these conversations and, um, can, you know, often focus on Western countries and those that have really just been on different trajectories, um, from other countries that are trying to solve the same problem.

11:18And so it's really nice to have these voices coming together who, you know, are involved in the field in their respective regions of interest, but, um, you know, are able to come together and talk about the problems and the gaps, um, as the industry evolves and scales. So, yeah, I think it's a very exciting topic and I'm excited for next week as well. Absolutely. Same here. And maybe just one last thing, right, to mention is, so, you know, this conversation we're just talking about, right, it happened on Clubhouse, which is unfortunately not open for Android, et cetera. And it's of course also time zones and all these things are restricting in some way, but actually when you listen to this podcast now, you actually, as a function, be hosting it through Anchor and actually you can go on the website and you can actually submit any audio yourself, you can, you know, um, provide some, you know, some commentary, let's say an audio form. So if you want to do so, please go ahead and, you know, we can maybe see, we can include this in future sessions as well.

12:15So, you know, let's start this dialogue, um, for free to reach out to us, you know, we're really happy to, to, you know, have these different voices represented as well and, you know, make this as an open and inclusive conversation we can. Yeah. We're looking forward to having others join us for sure. Brilliant. Perfect. Yeah. With that, let's close it. Let's keep it short in here. Um, if you want to hear the long version, I'd say one of ours, people can go this to a clip after, but yeah, we're looking forward to next week's conversation and I wish you a wonderful weekend and week. Bye. Same to you, Simon. See you next time. See you then. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you.