Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Stationary Energy Storage

0:00Transcript

0:00Also for today, we have the topic of stationary storage and grids, which I think is a fascinating topic. I can also tell you we have next week the session going about energy access. So maybe today we also want to talk mainly also about the grid perspective. We can also talk about topics like B2G, vehicle to grid, so combine some of these things. But the idea every day is to talk about how can we decarbonize our grid and what could be the role of batteries and especially have different viewpoints on this, maybe from different industries. And so today we don't have a fire starter or a conversation starter as we had the last two weeks, as we also have the next week. But this is actually a good platform then allowing us to talk more like the people on stage, but also everyone in the audience. So I would maybe say, you know, maybe we can just do a bit of a fire round. It's everyone on stage right now.

0:46If you, you know, want to just say who you are, maybe what your thoughts are on this topic, and then we can go from there. And again, as an encouragement, especially for the women in the audience to also join us. But of course, anybody here is really welcome to come on stage. As Catherine mentioned, just raise your hand. We're happy to have you on here. Otherwise, you can go to Milo's first. Let's go along the line. Milo's. Milo's. Milo's. Yes, I'm focused on battery and re-electrification. My firm is private equity investment firm focused on this space. So battery and re-electrification and the wider subject of the energy, how it feeds to the energy, including ESS energy storage system. So it's right in my alley. I divide the battery for the three segments or three parts supply chain value of battery. Heart of the battery is battery production, battery technologies. Downstream to electric vehicles, to energy storage systems, and to small battery for the iPhone, iPad, and computer.

1:58But I'm focused on upstream, on the materials for the batteries. And like I said already, re-electrification and energy like the widest subject. I see energy like the largest problem of the world today. Several years ago, we couldn't solve it. Now we have the technologies emerging, and I see it also like largest opportunity in the world today. And battery is the key enabling technology. Thank you very much, Milos, for this intro and your first thoughts. Let's go to Bavia next. Hey, Bavia, how are you doing? Hey. Yes, my name is Bavia. I am with Simon here and involved in Battery Associates as well as an advisory board member. I previously have worked with Tesla and conducted Fulbright research abroad in Europe, focused on battery end-of-life options and policies. So usually I look at things with a bit of a policy or regulatory hat. In the case of stationary storage, I'm always interested at what happens with batteries once they're repurposed or are often called second-life batteries as well.

3:20So I'm really excited to hear what others have to say or what they're working on in this specific battery type. Thanks. Thank you very much, Bavia. Let's go to Nick next. Hi, my name is Nikolai Marknik. I'm a co-founder and CEO WePower. WePower currently operates mostly in Australia. Our focus is on corporate PPAs and behind-the-meters PPAs as well, which recently started to include batteries and behind-the-meter storage, which becomes quite interesting as an approach in how the problems of the grid are being solved, not on the very high level, but by deploying more batteries with clients. Very cool. Thanks so much, Nick. So I think this is a very nice round we can get started with. And of course, if you feel like you just want to listen again, you can of course always go back to the audience as well. That's quite fluid on his. Maybe I can just start off with you, Nick, because I think you mentioned Australia and I think that's one of the most, for me at least, a really interesting place at the moment for grid storage.

4:48Like, you know, I mean, first big Tesla battery storage was installed there and I think, you know, has been a very interesting market, I feel, for batteries. Do you maybe have some more thoughts on the Australian market and kind of where you are standing at the moment? Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Australia was one of the first markets where a large Tesla battery was installed by Tesla and NEO-N a couple years back. So far, the results were very interesting. It's a very good project that, as far as I know, generated quite a lot of revenue for the companies that operate them. The cool thing is, it's actually, yeah, most of the services that are frequency response services right now are being provided in southern Australia by the battery, which really solved their problems. And it's one of the ways how you can do that, definitely. There are more projects like that in Australia. There's one that was recently awarded in Canberra, so in Australia-centered territories.

6:08But there will be more systems built like that. But because there's always, there's also grid constraints that we have there. So with the evolution and more renewable energy being built, most of the new developments of solar energy do include, maybe not from the very start, but there are some that are developing energy battery storage on site straight away. But most of them have battery storage planned down the line because it will be part of the future grid. Recently, and I think was two weeks ago, first community battery was built by Ausgrid, which is an interesting development because Australia today probably experiences more. There's more problems that other countries are not facing yet because of a very long grid. But it's an interesting way how Australia solves those problems. And I would say probably that's the future and for most of the other markets that are not yet at that point. But they can definitely learn and think and learn from Australia how they could manage problems in the future.

7:41Awesome. Thank you very much. We have so many people. We have Animesh, Boris and Rob. Do you have any thoughts on this topic? Maybe this order. Animesh? I just joined in, so I think I'll listen for a bit before chiming in. Sounds good. Rob, do you want to go or Boris? Yeah, sure. Nice to meet you guys. I've been following along here. I work in stationary storage, but I was just curious, Nick. I worked in Australia for most of 2019 on batteries down there. And I was just curious if the, you know, the Gen tailors have started to really pick up with their sourcing of batteries. I mean, for those that don't know the Gen tailors in Australia are typically heavily on the fossil fuels and have been a bit slow to, I think, pick those up. Nick, you may disagree, but that was my take anyway. So just curious if there's been a bit more momentum behind it or if that's still, if the major ones are still a bit of a laggard behind that.

8:39Nothing changed there. Shocker. Yeah, nothing changed there. I would say from, I would say it's not the Gen tailors that are doing most of the work right now. Grid operators like Ausgrid, it's, they're taking a lot of work. They're taking on to put more batteries on the grid. But Gen tailors, not much. Nothing changed. Very cool. Thank you for sharing. Cool. Thanks. And Rob, do you have any, maybe just quickly, what do you do with batteries in the grid sector? I work in, you know, mostly in the U.S. these days, but this is development for, you know, getting battery, for getting utility scale batteries in the ground. So it's a bit of a broad range there, but multiple regions in the U.S. and trying to figure out how to figure out offtake, figure out project development, figure out financing. It's, I think, as you all know, you've all been involved in this industry. It's a pretty fun challenge. So, you know, it's more of the business side at the end of the day, which I can provide any thoughts or inputs there.

9:52I'm happy to, but yeah, just really excited about the stuff you guys are doing and talking about here. It's really interesting. Thank you Rob. And I think it's a very interesting question to come back to, like, what are maybe the biggest roadblocks at the moment for more installations and more effective implementation? Fabian, do you want to go next? Quick intro, what do you do? Oh, hi. So I'm Fabian. I'm also in Australia. So I thought I'd chime in with some comments on the Australian context. I run a software startup that provides modeling services for project developers for solar and battery projects. And I thought that's just comment on the activities of the gen tailors, because we have a few customers who are gen tailors. And I guess we see action in a couple of different areas. So I think they're looking on with some curiosity and alarm at the network businesses rolling out community batteries. And so we're looking at developing their own projects in that area.

10:43So this is kind of local neighborhood storage. They're looking at deploying batteries as solutions for their commercial industrial customers. And some of the large gen tailors have announced projects to co-locate batteries at some of their existing large scale generators, as Nick referred to. So both kind of renewables, but also non-renewable generation systems. So I think there's a lot of projects in development in Australia. It's quite a dynamic area right now. So I think there's a lot of projects in the world that are going to be a very interesting project. Can I go next? Yes, please pause. Hey, hello everyone. I'm here on the beach now, in a great day in Ireland. And it's something interesting is because I'm following how is generated energy in Australia. And I'm just saying we like to understand is why the renewable energy penetration is not so high in energy generation. And Nick, if it's a or what plan out there, because I'm really interested in this part and what technologies to store the energy are using there.

11:58It's possible to know. Thanks, Boris. Nick, do you have some thoughts on this one? Sorry, I couldn't hear much. I think I can quickly summarize. I think what Boris was asking is why is there not that much penetration of renewable energies in Australia? And maybe from the energy storage side, like what technologies are you using? I guess whether there's different battery technologies, but also other technologies maybe. It's a question, you know, what the government is looking for in the end. So I wouldn't say it's the penetration in the energy sector in energy in Australia is not high. More than 50% of households have behind the meter solar. So that's one of the largest installed capacity behind the meter in the world for solar. Large scale solar is being developed, but and wind as well. There are each pipeline of projects that are currently in development. But the problem of the grid is most of the countries don't face it. Australia faces whenever you have very good days for solar generation or wind generation.

13:15There are curtailments and for the last year, for the last two years projects that went online, they had their, it probably it's a very technical term, but MLFs, the marginal loss factors reviewed multiple times, which means that basically you have a hundred megawatt power plant built, but in the end you might be only allowed to supply like 75% to the grid if your MLF is 0.75. So there are problems with the grid itself. So now what happens is a lot of new developments go for smaller capacities. That's one route. So now what happens is a lot of new developments go for smaller capacities. So, you know, the new projects are trying to stick more to the places the government would like to have them developed, which are defined in renewable energy zones and where there is more capacity available. So yeah, those are the main issues right now. But again, there's still, still cold generation online that is present. And it has very specific terms defined when those assets will be paced out.

14:45So you cannot, you know, at a certain point in time, you cannot just have more capacity on grid. Plus, everybody knows what happened in Texas, I guess. Similar things can happen in Australia as well, but in the opposite direction. So it gets very hot in Australia, where when a lot of people start using AC suddenly when temperatures go, you know, high 30s. And there's a lot of strain on the energy grid. So a lot of capacity needs to go on very fast. And that's the other reason why there's still quite a lot of fossil fuels online as well. But that is changing. Okay. Thanks for that, Nick. Yeah, the topic about curtailment is really interesting because I think that's something that's specific to Australia that other countries are not facing. For now, I'd like to have William, Mehdi, and Casey who just joined the panel to give a quick intro about ourselves and some topics, some thoughts you have about this topic. And then we can maybe also discuss more about some of the other energy storage systems issues that we have as well.

16:07William, would you like to go next? Sure. Hi, I'm out and about. So let me know if it's too noisy. Yeah, I was just thinking about the curtailments. Super interesting because they're not planned. But you can do it storage usually. You can plan when to charge and when to discharge and move loads over time. But sometimes it's really unplanned, as in Texas is fun. That's interesting. I want to hear more about that. Also, I was on another talk the other day about building or developing a virtual power plant by being able to control loads in the grid. And I want to hear more about how you see that in Australia. And then the final part, what do you guys think about the new warranty thing with Tesla that they don't allow discharge to the grid? They avoid the warranty. They avoid the warranty if that is done. Yeah, I'm here to listen in and get back if there's any comments. And also very nice to meet you all.

17:27I'm happy to help with some comments on those questions, if you like. Yeah, nice. In relation to the curtailment, one of the reasons we see curtailment of solar happening in Australia is actually to do with system lows or minimum system demand. So as Nick was saying, we're traditionally worried in Australia about maximum demand. Hot summer afternoons, everyone's running their air conditioner. But increasingly, we're getting issues with minimum demand because everyone's rooftop solar system is generating. That's taking load off the network and it creates issues with reactive power and voltage on the LB distribution network. And so in places like South Australia and Western Australia, the system operator is looking for the ability to, I would truly switch off people's rooftop solar systems to bring load back onto the network. But there's also, I guess, programs to try and provide incentives to customers to utilise resources like batteries or to increase load at those times to address those issues, which obviously has the benefit of allowing the system to host more solar.

18:28So I guess that's a very interesting trend. And virtual power plants, I guess, are part of the answer to that. So we have some quite well developed virtual power plant projects in Australia where we're using coordinated fleets of batteries to drive market and network services, principally frequency control services, but other services are being trialled. And so, yeah, and lastly, I guess, in the interest in the area of trials, we're doing some number of vehicle to grid trials. So not with Tesla, as you said, there's some opposition to using Tesla systems for vehicle to grid, but Nissan allow it. And so we're having a number of vehicle to grid trials where we're using these bi-directional chargers. So, yeah, lots of innovation happening in Australia. Out of curiosity, thanks for the comment. How vast is your electric grid? I mean, your country is enormous. And in Sweden that I know more of is that like all production is up north and it's distributed south. And it's, yeah, it relates to this, you know, the losses, but also the capacity losses.

19:42How distributed is the electric grid then in Australia? Yes. We have a very long stringy grid growth at the transmission level and at the distribution level. And as Nick was saying, one of the barriers to deploying more large scale renewables in Australia is transmission constraints. And so a number of the state governments are nominating these renewable energy zones and trying to fast track the development of new transmission capacity to enable those renewable resources to be built. But there are certainly issues with congestion on those transmission lines and losses. But we also see issues with the, at the medium voltage level as well. And so one of the interesting trends in Australia is we're seeing networks actually shrinking in some cases. So they're cutting parts of the distribution network, removing the network and deploying stand-line power systems. So in Western Australia where I'm based, we have one of the longest medium voltage distribution networks in the world. And the network operator here has a plan to shrink that dramatically and deploy about, I think it's about 10,000 stand-line power systems over the next five years or so.

20:46So it's really interesting to see them actually, you know, cutting the poles and wires and moving to solar and battery and diesel solutions to support, you know, remote communities and farms at the end of long stringy distribution feeders. So, may I follow up on that again? With, with, with, and thousands of new power resources, it needs a lot of more intelligence and, and control. Do you think that should be distributed as well? The control or actually the TSO remain as the old, you know, the only, or the DSO in control of the distribution? So, I guess in the case of stand-line power systems, they are kind of isolated systems. So from a regulatory perspective, they're considered part of the distribution network, but they are actually independent systems that will serve, you know, one or two customers. But there's a very big kind of political battle in Australia about who gets to manage and control distributed resources at the LD network level. I guess a battle between the network businesses and, and the retailers.

21:48And at the moment, it looks like the networks are winning and they're all establishing programs to, to create these kind of DSO functions and to try and attract, I guess, more regulated revenue to establish those functions to control distributed energy resources. So I guess this is kind of a tension between, you know, commercial developers of virtual power plants, who want to participate in the markets and see it as a kind of a, a very kind of liberalised approach to managing those resources and, and networks who want to say that we have to have control to stop the network burning down. And that should be a regulated service that we provide to manage these resources. And so I think we're still, we're still exploring what the right model is. Thanks for that Fabian. I think Casey has raised his hand on this point as well, but if, if I could let Maddy give a quick intro about himself and also your thoughts about this topic and then we can move on to Casey.

22:38Sure. Hello guys. My name is Maddy and I work in the investment business for the new technologies and net zero and batteries obviously the interesting topic at the moment in this area. Especially in the next five years when they, we have seen almost a growth in the share. Most in the share of the stocks for renewable assets and renewable utilities, but the next five years is expected that those utility companies are going to renovate themselves, especially with the batteries and a smart grid. And I can see huge growth coming into stationary storage and grid, but I personally was curious about the technologies that can come into the market and take a role in this market. At the moment, obviously lithium-ion batteries are, are used in this market, but curious to hear your views on the other type of batteries and even technologies such as all new, new entrant in this area, such as hydrogen. And how do you see this space can take shape in the next five, 10 years?

23:56Is there any specific technology that you probably have more hope for them to, to become prominent in the storage, a grid storage and stationary storage, or do you see it's going to be mixed? Yeah. Thank you very much. Thanks for that, Maddy. That's a very interesting question. I think I would definitely love to pick that up later as well with regards to other types of batteries that will be useful for stationary storage, also long duration energy storage, which is a topic that is very important recently due to the continuing issues that we see in Australia and other parts of energy storage system that needs to store significant more amount of energy that we will have right now for batteries. So I would just like to pass on the mic to Casey, who had a question earlier about the topic. Casey, would you like to unmute yourself? Yeah, thanks, Catherine. Yeah, I was just clapping before, but thanks for having me on. And apologies, I'm out and about on a beautiful rainy New York City morning.

24:55So there's some background noise, I apologize. But yeah, just to introduce myself, I'm an account executive with STEM. We are the world's leader in intelligent energy storage system. So we are out, I'm out there working with IPPs, utilities, co-ops to deploy energy storage with solar attached. Yeah, very interested in the future about how all of these assets, all these technologies we need to knit together to rebuild our grid, how they're going to work together and be intelligently managed. So right now we're working on a site by site basis. But in the future, as these technologies become gets further penetration and renewables, how are you going to be managing this decentralized grid? Is there going to be entity or system doing that? Or how do disparate systems work together to stabilize the grid and make it more reliable? Thanks, Rob, man. I'll just add to that. This is Rob, by the way. William, your question around distributed grids. Around distributed grids, I think Casey and the team at STEM are probably the most advanced in the world on that.

26:15I've worked in Australia on their distributed grids in the US as well, and I think they have a long way to go. But especially in Southern California where they're operating grids and working with the local utility to provide resource adequacy, which is sort of another version of capacity and do that across hundreds or even maybe at this point, Casey, thousands of sites. So I used to work at AMS, which was a big competitor to STEM and is now sort of bought up by another entity. But yeah, I don't know if you want to touch on that, Casey, but I think you guys are probably doing the most advanced stuff in the world right now on that. Yeah. Thank you very much, Bob. And good to see someone from AMS on here. Yeah, we actually ended up winning the bid for your guys' Southern California portfolio, which was the 340 megawatt hours of storage. It was the single largest transfer of operating assets to a different operating system ever for energy storage.

27:15I think it was the equivalent of the big Australia battery farm, Hornsville, being transferred. So yeah, that was very exciting. We have some of your old work colleagues with us now here at STEM. But yeah, I'm not working on the VPP side. I'm more on the East Coast working in the deregulary markets in Massachusetts and New York. So primarily focused on deploying front of the meter storage. And yeah, as you said, it's not thousands. We have almost a thousand sites under management right now. More definitely in the pipeline. But yeah, it's very exciting time. And thank you for the kind words, Rob. Another question I'd have is just we're seeing these markets are truly driven by policy. So always looking to find ways or what policy roadblocks we can get out to allow energy storage to meet its full potential. Because as many of you know, on this call, every storage is the Swiss Army knife and will be the linchpin to help us deploy more renewable energy on the grid.

28:35But the rules and policies we have in place for design for systems that were in technologies built in the 1900s and 1800s in some cases. So we've got to do all of that very quickly. So thank you. Thank you very much both. I think it's actually quite nice. You brought up two of the topics I was kind of, you know, was thinking we could maybe discuss as well. So you brought up technologies, which I think is a very interesting one. What technologies are out there? What are interesting technologies you think about? You know, we spoke about lithium iron, but also like, you know, other things like flow batteries, hydrogen, all kinds of things also talked about. So it would be interesting to maybe discuss that from different viewpoints as well. What do you think is most likely to happen next five years, etc. And I can see a few people raising their hand. It would be great. And then the second topic I would love to talk about.

29:28And that's kind of touching what you also mentioned, Casey, about, you know, software and AI machine learning, these kind of topics, what is kind of needed for them. And also maybe, you know, what could be like open source development. So you give a quick, quick intro for that. So we running something called battery dev battery.dev. You can see, see my profile as well. I spoke about this before. We actually just ran a competition this week on creating open source code for essentially for electric bus applications. So essentially what we did is we took some data from electric buses and these amazing 33 people around the world. They were developing now open source code, essentially the prediction of state of health of these batteries. So and we're going to build an open source tool out of this. And this is just the first one we're going to build. And we're thinking about building lots and lots of really cool tools, which can be open source and can be used worldwide.

30:17So it'd be interesting to also get your thoughts on what could be a really cool tool. What it be about how to manage a microgrid? Would it be, you know, predictive maintenance, etc. So it'd be interesting to talk about these topics as well. But maybe we can start with the first one about technologies. I think a few people raised their hand as are Milo's and a few others. So and Greg, so maybe we can start with Milo's. Hi, how are you? So I agree that there are a lot of technologies which the companies are working on the development of those technologies, how to how to edit to lithium-ion batteries or some how to store. Many technologies are specifically designed for the energy storage systems for the grid. So like I know about one. But the problem what I see to commercialize those technologies. So in this battery industry for the last 220 years, there are many breakthrough technologies, but most of them never materialized.

31:19They never they were never commercialized. So basically, some of them, they are close to commercialization. Some of them are far away from commercialization. Some of them are far away from commercialization. Like I know about one particular technology, liquid metal battery. Dan Sadoway is working on that. It's one material science scientist from MIT. So this technology is very close to commercialization. And it's specifically designed for the grid. Cheaper, safer, but heavier technology for the grid. Yeah, I can't if I can't go next. It's a I think I can say here is is my company is we are working to solve this problem is I think the problem is because the producer technologies are not ready to put in the market this technology. And in my company, we are working to make up of that. And this is exactly that we want to do is to try all these technologies to make the electrodes of these technologies and to commercialize a more lower cost because our machines are way more efficient.

32:41And I think the problem of that is because when I write the technologies to the real five real even six, the problem is. When they want to start to commercialize, they have to spend huge a fortune in assets that are not efficient to produce these batteries. And then all companies are stuck there because they can't or they can't find an investor to buy this kind of asset just to start to try. And with our company, we want to start with repainting how to make the electrodes more efficient. And I hope over the next year I will have a great news about that. And everybody have my contact in the email bio. And we are looking for people, companies that they have these chemistries that they want to try is with our technology. And hopefully we will find the path to commercialize. Thanks for that, Boris. Speaking about the topic about energy storage system, I was wondering if anyone would have any idea about Energy Vault, which was the company invested by SoftBank in 2019.

34:00They were all over the news back in 2019 about using kinetic energy to store energy. I'm curious if anybody has any thoughts to that. But before we launch into it, I wanted to pass on the mic to Greg, who just joined us on stage. Greg, would you like to give a short introduction about yourself and your thoughts on the topic? Greg, thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Catherine and Simon, for having this excellent room. And for I think you said you're at number seven. So congratulations and keep up the good work. Excuse me. So in brief, I'm a consulting civil engineer in Ontario, Canada. And I will say, I believe from 2011 to 2014 was the term I served on the board of directors with the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers. And my perspective is not from like those that have spoken already in yourselves as being deep in the battery space. Mine is as an I'll say an informed observer to the space.

35:03And I would say the perspective is an interesting one. I didn't catch the gentleman's name that spoke a few minutes ago. But what I've seen is that the ability to shape and change innovation is very fundamentally key from the point of view of policymakers and subsequent legislation and any regulatory that comes out of that. And that's true, I think, in most North American jurisdictions, if not all. And certainly, I assume the same is true in Europe, Australia, and so forth. So I guess I just wanted to jump to the point of saying that, you know, I'm learning the space. I'm learning what's going on more so from what it means to my point of view in the world, which, you know, doing land development, doing city building, doing, you know, transformation type projects in the world, not the electrical kind, the metaphorical kind of transformation. This is a very important area of interest on the, as you've said in this, the grid scale for battery storage.

36:13So just to conclude that, the last thing I would offer, and I'll pass the mic, is simply to say that I just this morning completed the audio book of Bill Gates' latest work, which is how to avert a climate disaster, I believe, if I got it, or how to avoid one, if I got the name right. Which I think is a great call to action book and a great introductory subject matter book for people like myself who might, you know, understand it on a more scientific or even general level without having the deep knowledge that others here do. So I just wanted to say my bit there and thank you again for allowing me to speak. Have a good session. Thank you, Greg. Also, Laura, who's just joined us today, would you like to give a short intro by yourself and your thoughts on the topic? Hey, Laura. Hi. Yeah, thank you so much, Catherine. It's really cool to hear everyone speak about this because I think batteries is our, it's the biggest thing, right, that we really need to make wind and solar work.

37:17So I'm in Canada, and I host a sustainable radio show at Ayrs Coast to Coast and available on podcasts, Zero Waste Countdown. And I see kind of a big issue with wind and solar here with our cold, cold, cold weather. My solar panel, I'm always trying to get the snow off. Today, it'll be covered in snow as well. And then, of course, the batteries seem to decrease in the really cold temperatures when we get up to the minus 20, minus 30 Celsius. And so, yeah, with battery, it'll be really cool. And lately, I've been exploring nuclear as well for a backup. So thanks for letting me join in on the conversation. It's really great to hear that so many people are interested in cleaning everything up and getting some good storage. Thanks. And I would like to put on here is in China, they are using other chemistries to store energy. But this technology, anybody know why this chemistry is like a, it's a, I forgot the name.

38:31I don't know. I don't know. LFP batteries. LFP batteries. LFP. Yeah, yeah, yeah. LFP. No, no, no, no, no. Phosphate, no. LTEUs? LTEUs, yes. It's a half way more. Of course, it's less energy density. But I think to a storage energy is not necessarily high in the density. It's necessary high cycles. And these batteries have up to 20,000 cycles. And I don't know why we are not using that. And just we can see here in the state that they commercialize storage, like power wall or something like that with lithium-ion batteries when the lithium-ion batteries are not the same to storage energy. It can work to storage energy, but I think the cycles of these batteries are really low. And I'm just, they said, we'd like to understand why not we are using these technologies that are available. And we can start to use tomorrow. Does somebody have some thoughts on this one? I mean, William? I'm not sure here. But the supply chains are very much controlled by quite a few number of companies and countries and areas.

39:51And I just want to put it out there, whether this is related to just being able to tap into the supply chains for these technologies. I think the Western strategy to really be a player in the battery ecosystem is to launch through the vehicles. And they've not really focused on looking at stationary storage where different technologies and chemistries are viable. So I think it's just a focus of industry on other technologies. And this is Rob. I was actually going to build off your point, Mylos. I was kind of curious, and maybe you can answer this. I just wanted to ask the question. I would have brought in Boris's one. But, you know, as someone who's on the business development side, you know, I think about commercialization. And usually I'm pretty skeptical and have been for a while. I knew better technologies and that's just my jaded personality, but from working in it for a while. But just curious if people think there is a new technology on the horizon.

40:55And, you know, typically the way I think about it is, you know, what can I sign a warranty against the 20 year warranty against that a bank will feel comfortable with? That's the that's my benchmark. And so I'm just curious if there is anything on the horizon people think is truly going to get there within the next three to five years. That could be, you know, whether it be incremental on the kind of NMC and LFP batteries we have today that are lithium-ion based or whether it be kind of game changing. Just interested to hear your thoughts on the people who think are much closer to this than I am. Yes. So I will try to answer both of your questions, Boris and Europe. So LTO batteries using titanium like the material instead of graphite. Again, it's a new technology, but titanium is much more expensive than the graphite and much less available than the graphite. You need much bigger batteries for the ESS systems.

41:51So basically, I don't know if that will be via feasible technology for ESS. I guess not because of the cost of this battery and because of the scarcity of this titanium like the material we are using for 30 years graphite like the material. And it's already this material is already perfected for the lithium-ion battery. And for like for Europe, like I already said, the largest problem with those technologies commercialization. So there are a lot of issues for the why those technologies are not getting commercialized. And that's the problem of the battery for from the time when they were invented in 1800. So basically a lot of breakthrough breakthrough technologies, but they never commercialized. Why? Because battery is complex chemical. Not complicated, but very complex chemical process and one battery pack like the car for the car or even more important for ESS systems. It's like one chemical plant combined in one container for the ESS. So complex chemical plant you are building for in one container.

43:21Thanks for that, Milo. So just to echo with what Milo was saying earlier, LTOs is typically more expensive than what we the other lithium ions that we see out there in the market. And LTOs actually have really high discharge rate, which means it can discharge a lot faster than the other lithium-ion types. So for energy storage systems, the discharge rate is not as high as compared to the EVs, for example. This is assuming that we are not using energy storage system for automatic frequency control to the grid, of course. But for the other type of scenarios that we are looking at, generally energy storage systems have lower discharge rates. So just sharing some statistics here. Wood Mackenzie recently published a report last year, December, about how LFP batteries is poised to overtake NMC as the dominant stationary chemistry within the next decade. So we're actually seeing an increase in the usage of LFP batteries, and that will come predominantly from China being some of the larger manufacturers like CATL, for example, in batteries are the dominant leaders in LFPs.

44:31So with regards to more mature battery chemistries, we are seeing the rise of LFPs overtaking NMC, at least for dominant stationary storage systems. But the other types of batteries could be interesting to look at, such as hydrogen, because a lot of countries are actually looking towards longer duration of energy storage, especially in countries where the proliferation of wind and solar is actually pushing for this. So I'm curious to also hear what the panel has to say about what kinds of chemistry or what kinds of better technology could be used for longer duration of energy storage systems. 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program about it and it was very interesting to me especially when you put it in the context of cost and the efficiency of the battery and the ability to build it alongside a wind farm for example that you just put on a tower and that that tower with the 80 efficiency that they're claiming and the cost that's cheaper than any other battery in the world at the moment uh it is it's going to be a very promising technology and especially in terms of when you're building a wind farm you can just build one of those alongside of that uh when you have a construction it makes it very attractive but going back to your point i don't know why nobody's talking about it that much that that that's that that's something i i don't know you know it's a very interesting technology energy walls and probably worse uh people who are interested in topic get a look at that and see you know if they see that some some future for that uh in future uh you know in going forward absolutely thanks for that maddie um any much would you do you have something to add uh oh yeah thanks katherine so i think my first point was about lto but i think uh milos and you you yourself um answered it quite well uh the second bit was a bit of a high level question so i'm not an expert on like grids by you know any stretch given especially given you know the kind of um experts that we have on the panel but when you talk about it my mind goes back um you know uh in the let's say the start of the 2010s we saw the whole thing you know with you know pv cells how the cost how the cost went down how that led to increase in you know proliferation of solar around the world how new industries were set up how the gradual rollback of subsidies led to the further consolidation of the industry and we're seeing something sort of similar with the batteries right now so i'm really curious to like you know uh to get some inputs or insights on you know uh what are some of the i would say the most prominent macro trends in the industry that we're seeing right now especially given how assuming like you know the lithium lithium-ion based batteries continue to be the status quo continue to be the dominant i would say chemistry that is being used what are some of the macro trends of where you know the battery or the battery cost can curve can take us what are the you know broader uh policy trend policy trends that are taking place uh yeah thanks for that so just to quickly answer that question um we are we have seen last year that the battery pack cost could be as low as less than 100 per kilowatt hour so definitely cost is a big driver to the rampant adoption of energy storage systems especially for leading ion and i think going forward um because of the chemistry that's in LFPs we'll probably see that more often in energy storage system um given that it is less costly for as compared to NMCs um i'm more i'm also interested to find out more about the novel technologies that's involved in batteries such as hydrogen as i mentioned earlier or any other types of um chemistries that may help to uh you know really speed out the process and also be more useful for a longer and a duration energy storage system or modularization of energy storage system which is also a trend that we're currently seeing um so i would love to hear the panel if anyone has anything to add to this topic and i think casey you may have raised a hand earlier to to add on to something and then we can follow by boris and milos yeah i forget what it was now at this point um so yeah i mean i'll just touch on a few things um definitely see LFP as being um like a dominant technology going forward we're already starting to see that but we want to the problem is just finding to rob's point finding bankable solutions from tier one high quality suppliers is a big issue oh so having to be able to find technology that you can get a 20-year warranty to put to deploy and put on a project that someone's going to be able to finance um is a big issue for any energy vault vault i haven't heard much in a while um in theory i love it because the duration of that battery is theoretically like infinite you can build a tower and let it sit there for hundreds of years uh until it topples down but um yeah i just would like to learn a lot more about that sort of technology and we talk about this all the time um within my company but thinking about life beyond lithium so what's coming next uh lithium is great right now because we have decades of track records of lithium-ion batteries working well in electronics um trying to find a solution a new technology that will have that sort of track record as well as have the economies of scale in uh tertiary applications like electric vehicles or uh smartphones computers you name it um is really what's going to be needed to drive down those uh the learning curve costs so like yeah we we're going to get lithium-ion batteries very cheap but they may top out at about uh 10 about 10 hours of duration to get uh like a hundred percent decarbonized grid if that's even possible we're going to need energy storage that can last uh weeks months even years so that's where technology is greatly needed and to commercialize that um a lot of uh federal policy i think is going to need to play a role and we've seen with the biden administration some very good signals um stephanie granholm was just uh uh appointed uh uh sorry approved by the senate this week and biden has already announced uh ambition to i think it's quadruple the uh does r d budget um over the next 10 years to and part of that to build out new battery technologies and help commercialize commercialize them we even saw it last year before biden was elected that the bipartisan support for for additional energy storage research as well as executive orders this week focusing on supply chains for critical uh materials particularly around energy storage so i i would just add very briefly to casey's comment too and i think casey you will know this but um on the energy vault side uh i do think it's and this is true for any new emerging technology i think you really have to take a close look at what it's going to be doing and you know i'm not sure i don't have clarity on like the energy vault and what its capabilities are but you know for example if it's just doing energy shifting from long periods of time you know for like hours in the morning to hours in the evening or something i think you know you may have some some help there but i suspect that if you're trying to do like you're trying to participate in frequency regulation or you know short short term operating reserves spinning reserves um it may run into issues there or trying to you know the wind turbine wind farm uh you know suddenly drops you know they need to pick that up really quickly i think those kind of renewables firmings uh i'm not sure what the capabilities are but it's it's uh even if it's cheap you need to understand if it can meet whatever the requirements are of how you're going to use it um potentially multiple requirements i think that's probably not lost on anyone here but i suspect that's part of the reason why energy vault is not as we talked about recently but um uh yeah that's a that's a good point rob uh uh i think uh you know energy vault probably is going to be a winner when it comes to uh curtailing curtailment if you like uh for the the renewable generation that are connected to grids rather than providing grid services but uh some of the reason that you would need those grid services is the the extra or intermittent nature of the the renewables anyway i think it's interesting to see how the panel is um very positive about technology um and perhaps a hybrid could be possible i think that's just something for us to all think about so uh i think earlier milos raised your hand and part of like boris and animesh yes so uh i think the future uh is uh tailor-made uh technologies for the specific use like tailor-made technologies for the ess systems right now we are using the lithium-ion battery for almost everything so um i would pay attention to those technologies which they are close to commercialization because it takes long time to commercialize technology and the risk is the that high risk is there that they will never be commercialized so i would pay attention to those new technologies which are tailor-made for the ess systems like i already mentioned one um company it's called umbri they are very close to commercialization and it's a liquid metal battery so basically these these technologies tailor-made for the for the ess systems like i told you in the beginning my firm is private equity investment firm so we are looking for the investment for opportunities to those technologies including to those technologies so there are many other technologies but like you already mentioned katrine the lithium there are many kinds several kinds of the lithium-ion batteries the two established ones are uh LFPs and uh and uh NMCs but those are those are the LFPs is uh already commercialized so here is the question how we can deploy more LFPs to a ess or add less NMCs maybe also thanks minus maybe just one thing quick thing to drop in there as well right i think one thing to be aware of is you know like you meant ampere and a few other companies as well and i think also it's just you know it's it's kind of uh you know it's kind of highlights also how complicated this to actually make these things work and especially at the price point which is attractive vitamin amperee and a few other companies they've been announcing but they're very close for a long time right and i think the big issue you can see is that was mentioned before also the price point right if you want to now bring in let's say new technology in the past it was enough to say my technology gonna be let's say 100 dollars right or something you know and um but now we're already hitting 100 with lithium-ion right so um i think a lot of these targets which have other technologies like also redox flow etc right which they could use let's say to say you're gonna hit this price point and that's why we're much cheaper than lithium-ion because at the time let's say lithium-ion was at 500 now it's like you know close to 100.

57:55so i think that's also makes it even harder right for some of these technologies to really you know come on the market um so i'm quite curious to see actually which is going to survive and maybe just one thing also to to mention is redox flow batteries right is i think one of these things often brought up you know which where you can decouple essentially power from capacity which is of course quite attractive for a stationary use because as katherine mentioned you don't need maybe the high power you know for some of these applications but even here it would be quite interesting right i mean i've been visiting many of these installations or quite a few and the problem i've been observing is that all of them were always shut down because they had some maintenance problems which was interesting to me right because i mean some of these technologies are kind of highlighted for being super stable and theory they are right like the chemistry itself could be but then just it makes it more complex right like you know maintenance with pumps and all kinds of things so i don't want to say you know this won't happen but i'm just saying it's you know it is quite hard to you know compete these days because of the cost but also from the maintenance perspective yes like you said simon the it's relatively easy or it's difficult to make the one first prototype of the technology and to make this battery work but it's at about thousand times more difficult to build the factory and produce it in in the commercial scale it means that that's the problem that's one of the factor of the problems of with the commercialization of those technologies yes they can work they can work in theory but in practice they are not working and now is uh because uh the project that uh we are we want to to set it up a pilot line in england and now we are making a possibility study with one guy that they have open source hydrogen technology and we are making a project together to power with hydrogen our pilot line and and look that is totally possible and we can and we will make that and i hope to succeed with this experiment that that we will do i will take risk but i will try to power my pilot line with hydrogen that is it's currently possible thanks boris william do you have something to add yes to what mills uh i mentioned the two points when the tailor-made uh technologies uh for the right application i think really is uh is key here uh there's so many different aspects of the battery that really uh decides where it should uh or could be used and it's everything the chemistry is one thing but then you can look at the structure of of the anode and the cathode and you can look at the thickness of it and look at the electrolyte and there's so many different combinations and that i think will make it different difficult to scale or commercialize the perfect battery for the perfect uh application and i wonder if any one of you have any experience with how easy it is to it is to um to to it or to change the design when the factories are already up and running that's one thing and then then i just want to f yeah emphasize the the my standpoint on the it should be the right technology in the right application also on a on a wider base looking at hydrogen is super in some applications and batteries the same but i think they all have to work together and and nothing is really being a silver bullet here thanks thanks for that william so just really quickly on this point um definitely agree that tailor-made um solutions would be would be good for the applications themselves but uh theoretically practically speaking it's actually it's actually quite difficult and um it's interesting that last week when we're talking about evs and battery swapping uh people are actually pushing for standardization um across the ev so that's just something interesting to look into um i think we have casey and animash who've also raised their hand on this topic casey would you would like to uh do you have something to add here oh no i was just um uh clapping and all right just clapping chuckling at myself and william's question that how easy it is to change uh factories once they're up and running it didn't sound easy at all but i don't have anything else to add um and just uh what i mentioned i did my uh pieces uh at Northvolt um the battery company here in sweden soon launching up in the very north and uh and i i've been in the factory and it's i'm not i'm not a process engineer um i was looking on the recycling side but it certainly looks very difficult to to tailor make it tailor make batteries after um yeah commercialization of yeah absolutely i think um animash probably has something to add on topic of customization for um and i think and the technology uh thanks katherine yeah so when we talk about like you know different batteries i think simon kind of touched upon it uh you know uh aside from the anode of the cathode design if you're looking at you know traditional like variations of a lithium-ion battery there's a lot of you know beyond lithium as well and this is not just you know on a lab scale or a pilot scale um there are a a number of startups or even larger companies that have you know smaller product lines of products which are already been deployed um so obviously vanadium flow or you know different kind of redox flow batteries is um one aspect of it the advantage as simon mentioned is you know able to decouple power and capacity and also that uh you really don't have to worry about too much you don't have to worry too much about how it degrades uh given that you know you're constantly pumping out um the electrolyte or whatever you know the liquids that are inside and you can keep it running for a long time at the same time if you're looking at something like you know um i had the opportunity to speak with some people who work with you know off-grid like you know uh energy storage in the sense that you know setting up small units on on an island or really really far off you know and these are small um energy storage units they're obviously setting up a reliable redox low battery is not practical so even if they have to pay a premium in terms of total cost of ownership um they typically go for lithium-ion battery packs because they're easily more transportable and beyond that like you know i had the like um there are some companies that are even looking at something more niche like zinc air batteries which they are deploying for things like um uh mobile towers um so and i would say in southeast asia and i would say in indonesia and malaysia there are actually a smart uh there are a handful of i would say companies which make these mobile towers uh which have these uh you know the operation of these antennas and so on obviously it's a very niche application but their only like zinc air battery seems to have made a comeback so in terms of when you look at linear customization it's not just a you know play of lithium-ion or variations and capacities or you know uh variations in how pack design or how you configure these modules it's a like sometimes you look at entirely entirely different chemistries entirely entirely designs all together thank you adamish okay to be a different point yeah and actually thinking a bit more on this now um i would say i would almost go the other direction in that customization of the battery um like the cells themselves i'm not sure how important that is as it is to have cells or modules that are widely applicable to multiple different use cases i mean what we need right now is to drive down the the cost the cost of these systems to then deploy them further we need as i've mentioned before multiple applications like lithium is great because we've got electric vehicles um NMC is is great energy density for that use case LFP will probably take over but learn a lot from NMC manufacturing um hydrogen i see a lot of different disparate use cases as well if we try to focus too much on like customizing the perfect battery for the perfect application if we're talking about like cells today um i definitely see like in terms of manufacturability um and size weight all those factors reducing raw materials um i'm i'm not sure how like customizable we need as far as we just need to be able to put out the best batteries possible right now so lowest lowest cost uh highest energy density like smallest footprint uh um and then everything else can can flow from that in the future it's a very f f powerpoint easy well said yeah and and these batteries like they can do dozens of different things and and really where we need the innovation is like just the imagination new business models new policy to like enable these new technologies to one compete on an even uh footing with traditional technologies and then figure out what else we can do um it i often uh make the analogy where our electrical grid is a corded telephone from the 1960s whereas energy storage will enable us to have a grid comparable to a smartphone today where like yes you can call you can text but you can also do a million different things and the value you can get from that and what people use them for are as disparate as like you're like only limited by your imagination thank you casey i think that's that's a very good point um maybe just one thing also to kind of bring to the other point which i would like to talk about um because we don't have too much time left anymore maybe casey also have some thoughts but maybe also other people and that's exactly like also from the you know from the software side and automation right i think we're now looking at a very different grid um you know like like low of decentralization is happening from production you know solar wind etc but also you know consumption always has been i guess distributed and low base but i think um you know kind of how you run this very efficiently you know we have models you know like google of course hyped it up you know that built something but i guess also your company does and a few other companies do maybe just to kind of if you have some thoughts on um you know what kind of like how can we like technically you know build these grids in an efficient way what would like let's say what would like a grid of the future look like um in your opinion uh i think this was directed to me samon yeah okay um yeah i mean i'm probably not the best person to answer this but i mean i see these technologies we have now are a lot cheaper and a lot more decentralized than they were in the past so we're gonna like we're not gonna have the old model of large centralized generators and miles and miles of transition we're gonna have a distributed grid and with that uh with just inherently from that uh design and from the technologies we're deploying it's a lot more variable it's a lot a lot different operating um characteristics you're we're gonna need to get a lot smarter a lot faster um and that's where stem like we're we're technology agnostic we just want to make sure we're providing the best best hardware out there that's available um we're really a software company at our heart um and i'm not a software guy so i can't be speak to that um as intelligently but we batteries in themselves are are kind of dumb they just sit there there's bricks that can charge and discharge what you do with it and the intelligence and how to use that and use it uh to like its highest capabilities that's really where uh i think the future is going um and as these cost curves come down it eventually we can get to the point where uh batteries are being commoditized just like um solar panels are and and here and just briefly touching on the data here is you can either look at the behind or in front of the meter one where you can actually um use loads um you know developing this uh virtual power plant to keep the grid stability but then on the other hand you can use uh on the other hand you can use storage as a smarter way to just keep energy local you don't have to to transmit everything everywhere um and and being able to balance be behind and in front of the great uh uh behind the meter and in front of the meter uh distribution i think is uh is key as well but i'm leaving you now thanks simon thanks a lot so for today thanks william cool let's just also maybe have 15 minutes left so we have two new people um joining joffrey and moe do you maybe want to quickly say hi and what your thoughts are about this topic hi yeah um so i'm i'm a clean energy consultant in canada in montreal and uh we do a lot of work focusing on evs but also energy storage stationary but also batteries used for electric vehicles um i guess i just joined in not really sure what the context is but i can say uh the work that we're doing uh here i'm quite interested in looking at sort of the supply chain for batteries and how that can sort of enable price reduction and also you know figuring out economic development opportunities for canada but i think also what we what i've seen here with some of the research happening in quebec related to uh solid-state batteries and um yeah i'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on on that on the solid-state side of things and how if that's going to enable uh you know further uh deployments of storage i've seen some assessments by bloomberg new energy finance that solid states are expected to be cheaper than regular uh liquid electrolyte batteries so yeah just kind of like uh this quick brief introduction of who i am but i'm not i just joined in so i'm not really sure if we're trying to answer a specific question here thanks more maybe just to reset the room really quick um so we're talking today about stationary storage and grids um and of course you know how batteries and different energy storage devices are playing a role in this we actually had a session on um station sorry on solid-state i think two or three weeks back uh we're going to post this also on our podcast so hopefully maybe we can listen to this might be interesting as well but i think you know and also the topic of battery change is a very interesting one i think we should definitely address this in a future session but just from today we really look at the stationary angle and yeah so that's just as i said to everyone get up on the same page um joffrey do you want to go next yes sure um thank you simon for inviting me uh this is jeffrey mutawazi i'm uh the founder of charge core uh technologies in uganda so uh charge core is a startup that focuses on setting up um uh public paper use charging stations for mobile phones but we're also looking at the electric vehicle ecosystem and you know looking at ways you can add value to that though it's still a growing market uh in uganda and east africa where we are best so um i would like to basically add some value to this discussion by saying so in in terms of the future of grids we are definitely looking at solar panels um coming in more as a construction material the same way you come with a roof you i mean you put a roof on your house and you know all the walls i mean panels will have to be part of that because they're not that complicated to add however storage is one of the most well one of the difficult parts of um of you know this whole discussion so i'm looking at maybe you know if every house had its own panel where it could generate its own electricity um and does like a community based um battery that's operated by a particular service provider and is you know subscribed to buy the whole community so that that particular subscribe i mean that particular company or service provider would be maintaining this battery uh making sure it's running making sure they you know they have the right battery it's taking on the right load and you know keeping in touch with you know the community's energy needs because the biggest challenge is okay you're going to buy a battery for your home but when you start off maybe you need let's say 10 kilowatt so you get like a tesla power or two but then your energy consumption or your energy needs grow and you maybe need a 20 kilowatt battery then you know five years down the road need a let's say 30 kilowatt battery be able to keep up with your needs guess what's going to happen you're going to have to let's say the battery lasts say 10 or 15 years uh you're going to have to buy a battery you know every five years because your your needs are not keeping up with the battery and the capacity also also reduces over time so that's too much hassle compared to panels which are more predictable last longer can be integrated into the building and can directly supply your house with electricity and then you know this battery thing could be a subscription that you don't have to worry about something that you know that you don't have to think about too much can i add something to previous discussion the to finish the technologies i think that for this decade there is no competing technology to the lithium-ion battery technology because what we need to build is not only technology what we need to build is the whole supply value chain and we need to build it fast so we are already in the process of the building supply value chain and in the same time uh improving uh lithium-ion battery technology so other technologies maybe they are uh going to be commercialized in niches market but we have the now 200 giga plants in the pipeline we are building the mines we are building the processing plants we are building the and we are re-electrifying everything i mean electrical vehicles energy storage systems so we need we need to build a supply value chain in the huge scale going from 200 gigawatt hours production last year uh of the lithium-ion batteries or batteries uh itself to if tesla is right 20 000 20 terawatt hours of the uh of the production in 2030 so i don't think that uh considering all those all those factors there is other technologies which they can they can beat lithium-ion battery i mean maybe in the best case scenario they can capture like uh five percent of the uh of the market shares but 95 percent or 90 percent of the uh of the battery in the future in the uh 2030 will be lithium-ion battery casey did you have something you want to say or did you was it clapping i was clapping but i think meals is exactly right lithium-ion has a couple decades head start on any new technology we're trying to develop now um and it's also kind of related to the supply chain issue um i'm not sure if we talked if this was brought up earlier or on a different podcast um battery recycling i know we're running out of time here i'd love to hear more of the panelists thoughts on on that uh and or if it could be taken as a topic for another discussion another day we actually spoke about this two weeks ago um on second life and recycling and yeah we're still gonna post uh recording of it but yeah it's definitely a topic and i mean that might be topics you're going to bring back but actually which is maybe also a nice segue for us i'm just looking at the time katherine to kind of maybe talk about um next week's topic as well and i'm happy to introduce our conversation starter as well for next week what do you think katherine yeah absolutely um i would just like to tidy up kind of the conversation that we have here so it's really great that casey ended up on the note of battery recycling because i think that relates to something that we mentioned earlier about um standardization or tailor-made battery cells earlier and how you know if we potentially tailor tailor make battery cells for all these different applications then how this how would that help in battery recycling and currently a lot of the energy storage systems are actually using recycled battery cells from vehicles so i think it's about how do we maximize the potential of using the battery technology for different applications and potentially you know fully maximize the value of the batteries so that we are not leading to more wastage which is what we're initially trying to prevent for you know adopting cleaner energy sources to power our vehicles homes etc industries so yeah with that um i think that would conclude our session on stationary search um next week we're having a very exciting and first our speaker as well i'll leave it to sam and to introduce in our topic for next week thank you katherine yeah and in a way like you know next week is really um like also building on today's topic in some way so next we're going to be about energy access which of course is you know its own kind of stationary topic but it's you know it's really about you know um essentially like you know for for place like you know essentially creating like you know energy systems and other places and we are really we're really fortunate to have harani heva divaga with us who was the battery research lead of m copper solar and she is which is a market leader and pay as you go solar home systems and they've been providing energy access to one million households across sub-saharan africa and yeah so she worked with the energy team which was leading there the battery research team and it's super fascinating you know i think some of the aspects we can talk about are maintenance questions right kind of how can you build systems which are going to last and we spoke about this before right especially with new technologies it's quite challenging like you know we have as battery associates we work with people from over 20 countries you know and we have so many stories where you know there will be a really nice you know intention let's say a government would sponsor you know like a nice energy system to you know to some place and essentially after a few years it's all breaking down because it wasn't really built in a way that it would last um and it couldn't be really you know checked on from the distance so there wasn't any predictive maintenance something cool which those have been doing with mcorp and a few other companies and we can hopefully get some more together as well as they've been working and they've been working on predictive maintenance so there's some really cool research they've been doing obviously university of oxford and we're talking to them as well and really trying to predict you know when are these battery systems going to fail and that includes you know that asset which is kind of you know you could say the previous generation but still widely used in many of developing countries especially but also you know lithium-ion you know like how can you how can you predict when it's going to fail because you know you know then you have to essentially send something in place right to replace that so next week's really going to be about all these really interesting topics of how can we know essentially i think there's three and a half billion or more people don't have energy access right now so how can we bring energy to them um what technologies you know exist which can be scaled what's the role of batteries and all of this and yeah it would be really amazing to have you all back next week at the same time um always at 3 p.m ct um 10 p.m well i think 10 p.m right in singapore time yeah and very early in in the us i'm always really appreciative of everyone who spends their morning with us 9 a.m 9 a.m brilliant in new york time right yeah um and yeah i think west coast it's it's super early so um yeah so i think you know as katherine mentioned we also applied for a club so as soon as we have that we also want to you know create some different rooms for different time zones so that's something we're definitely excited about but till then we're going to stick to this time because it works for you know for for most people involved wonderful katherine do you want to have any closing remarks yeah thanks for that simon so uh we are also looking for fire starter speakers every week and we're really trying to invite more women to join us as far as our speakers so if you're interested or working in anything related to evs stationary storage or just batteries in general just feel free to follow me and simon and give us a ping on linkedin or our instagram or social um social media handles and we will really love to invite you um to speak on the topic and just to kind of you know kick start the conversation and as always we're very thankful for everyone who joined us the regulars um on on the panel so yeah feel free to follow uh all of us here right um on on stage if you would like to be notified uh about the session next week and um yeah with that thank you all very much simon would you like to um add off anything or just one just one quick thing is you know because few people have been asking because there's this little podcast sign on top so we're recording this because we want to share this more widely um especially with the android users you know to make sure um you know they can access this as well so we're going to put us on batteryinsiders.com you can see there's this little battery ba um next to us catherine myself um so we both part also as battery associates and bavia and a few others as well and um to essentially you can just go on there actually bavia and i we're going to jump on another call right after this and going to record also a bit of a reflection um so like a like a short snippet and yeah we're going to upload this all on batteryinsiders.com and yeah and if one of you doesn't want to be part of this please let me know and i'm happy to cut you out um you know it's it's not super easy but i'm happy to do so so please let me know maybe you know on linkedin or so soon so i know i you know should remove something but other than that you know super grateful to have you all involved it's always i learn a lot every time um it's really wonderful to you know to build the community and yeah just you know other guests we can say till next time