Battery Insiders Reflection - Battery Policy

0:00Transcript

0:00Welcome to Battery Insiders, your podcast providing you insights and the fascinating world of batteries. Hosted by Bhavya Jha and Simon Engelke. And we're back. How's it going, Simon? Very well, Bhavya. It's a beautiful day in Munich. Oh, our poor, poor listeners, they must be wondering. Well, folks, we've now given you the weather report every Saturday for three, no, maybe five months now. So you're really tying it into the climate change theme here. And on that note, let's talk about batteries. So what did you think our last session with Julia Polisca Nova? Yeah, it's really exciting. I think it's a really interesting perspective, you know, from a policy perspective or like for an NGO perspective from Europe and giving some really nice, I think just the introduction was really insightful, you know, just providing a really nice overview of what's going on, kind of where we're coming from, what we are like looking at right now, what are some of the, you know, decisions which have to be made.

1:11And then just, yeah, I think also the audience was very engaged, which was fantastic to have lots of people asking questions. You know, it's always a very good sign. How about yourself, Bhavya? Yes, absolutely. I think, well, first off, yes, super engaged audience, as I have invited folks to join from whom I know, I think they only walk away thinking, wow, people are really engaged in batteries on a Saturday. Who would have thought? I think, one, it goes to show the passion of our listeners. So shout out to all of you. Thank you for joining us so consistently and then for joining us, you know, just one off even when you get time. But I think when it came to Julia's discussion, it was a little bit refreshing, I must say, as someone with the policy legal hat in the room. And, you know, it was also a bit of a validation for me personally, because that was the first touch point that I had with batteries about two, three years ago now.

2:21And so to feel like I knew what she was talking about was one. Great. Yes. I guess, you know, going with our battery insiders theme, I felt like a little bit of an insider on this topic. But she highlighted all of the things that I had in mind, you know, their framework, you know, focusing on Europe. That is totally her area of expertise. But she knows what's going on elsewhere in the world. And I'm so glad that that was able to come out as well. And I think, you know, one thing, the things that I really know about are that the EU battery directive and end of life directive for batteries. And it's interesting people, some knew, some didn't. There was a little bit of conversation about that. But then there were like questions that I hadn't really thought about as far as policy goes. And people really got into the technicalities of things, which I think speaks highly to the importance of bridging science and, you know, these more hard science technical aspects with the policy, which I think Europe does a little bit better, if not best right now.

3:33But she did shed some light on the fact that these things take a lot of time to implement. So, you know, you could start the process now, but the amendment may or may not pass and will only really become to fruition or implemented like two to three years down the line. But I think that is, it's a rigorous process. It takes time, clearly. But, you know, it will, it's kind of one of those things, you know, it's going to get done. Whereas when I look at things in the US, I'm wondering how, what could we do that's similar to that? Or, you know, if we're obviously working in a different socio-political context here, what is it going to take to get to a similar end product in a very different context and in a country that runs differently? So I think folks definitely came in with their country hats as well. You know, we have a really diverse representation in our audience. And I think it was great to see that come out in the policy context as well.

4:35Yeah, I agree. And I think also from, it was interesting how countries, like, you know, how people get inspired by each other, right? And I think, you know, I mean, the South European Battery Alliance, I think how this also was inspired by initiative in the US, you know, and now you have this here and it goes back and forth. And I think, you know, policy, what's really important is, I think, also get positively inspired and also, you know, see what has been working, what doesn't work so well. I mean, I think now, you know, I mean, I think, you know, that's why it's quite useful to also have things to look back on, right? I think there's a lot of now policy examples which have shown to be very effective and others which have been really ineffective, right? And often implying these things that maybe isn't that easy to even predict what are all the knockoff effects, you know, what one policy might does. And I think, you know, it's quite fascinating also to see, I mean, just to give examples I know of, like, for example, the housing market and housing efficiency, you know, in the US, you know, of buildings.

5:34Another one is on emissions from automotive, right, where there have been different vehicles in taking. So, for example, I know in the US and California, they had to, let's say, every year get more and more efficient as a house, you know, and the cars just had, like, like a fixed number. They couldn't get above, you know, from a mission standpoint, which meant essentially plateaued at this number because if engines get more efficient, you can build bigger cars and things like that. And we see similar things now also happening in Europe, right? I mean, funny enough, I was in another session between recording this and the other session on Clubhouse. I was in another session with Julia, and she was also talking there, and it was very interesting as well because there was a lot of other politicians, ministers, and really, like, a bunch of interesting people attending as well and giving their thoughts. One thing is, right, like, it's just a nuance to it, right?

6:28For example, let's say, you know, people talk about, okay, you should get a, you know, you get a smaller car or something, but it doesn't mean actually, I mean, like, you know, maybe you can also have a very inefficient small car, right, kind of thing, right? I mean, to really look at efficiency rather than maybe just always at size. And of course, these are often connected, and this makes sense. But I think to really understand the complexity which is needed to do good policy. I think only if you're well informed and understand the topic well, you can actually do, you know, good policy. So I think it was quite interesting to have to do some perspectives, and I hope these dialogues also help, right, to inform each other and learn from each other. Right. I agree. I think the complexity is really where the answer lies, but I think the hardest aspect of, I mean, it's the meat of this. I think it's the hardest to tackle.

7:18So, but it also is like not a problem that is only with batteries, you know, like governments are creating policies about all kinds of new inventions. But I think there are like some, that I have seen, there are some avenues in the US through which, you know, experts can get involved and are brought on to influence or give their opinions. But I think ultimately, when it comes down to it, the policymakers, it's like, you know, it's kind of hard to just, I can see how it's hard or why it's hard to build this bridge between policymaking and the like scientific knowledge that may be required in this case. You're also like balancing interests of science and sustainability in the case of batteries with, you know, the economics that comes up every conversation that we have. And it did come up, I think, I believe on Saturday. So, you know, when are you, you know, the questions of second use and recycle and what? These are all going to ultimately be driven by policy.

8:30So, and they already are in Europe. The question is, how is policy going to continue to change, not only meet the needs, but also meet other goals? Like I know in Europe, circular economy has become the thing. I feel like it was the buzzy word by the time I left Europe and it continues to be. So there are a lot of interests that have to be balanced that make policymaking so, so tricky. But I would, I would like to see, you know, just a more comprehensive framework. I think if someone were to say, what would you want it to look like? Well, I want it to account for full lifecycle management. You know, is, is there, should there be any kind of like design requirement? Of course, like end of life requirements. You know, who, and of course, I think the biggest question mark, who is responsible? Customer, OEM, another vendor. So I think these three things really pop out to me is like things that would, you know, comprise a good framework for a battery policy.

9:39Yeah, no, I think it's very true. And I think, yeah, it's, it's often tricky, right? Because, you know, don't want to like open up the, the hydrogen can, let's say, right? And I think it also came up a lot, let's say in a session again. And yeah, so I mean, that's, I mean, also understand, right? There's, there's many different interests and, you know, there's good arguments, you know, of, you know, people. And I think transparent environment has been very effective also to communicate some of these challenges, right? Like from efficiency standpoint. But it's also interesting to see how different countries, you know, have different perspectives as well. Right? I mean, like in Germany, hydrogen is a big topic still because it's pushed by some, you know, players and other countries. It's not the same thing with many other technologies, right? I'm also connected to their, to the industry. So, yeah, you know, just where it's interesting to see how policy also has to be like, you know, how policy is shaped by this as well, because of course it's, you know, in a democracy, right?

10:38It's, it's shaped by the, you know, ideas that's shaped by the people voting for. So, yeah, so I find it also quite interesting to, to think now that, you know, you mentioned Europe, but Europe also has lots of individual countries, right? Also doing their own kind of strategies as well. And it gets just super complex. So I think it's just really fascinating to see. Oh yeah. That was the most fascinating part when I was there. Understanding, starting in Brussels, understanding the, you know, comprehensive umbrella policy and then connecting with people on the ground locally in other countries where they were like, yeah, we're still working on how, figuring out how to implement that in our country. You know, not all these, yes, it applies to Schengen and at the time the UK, but, you know, it takes time and how is that even regulated? You know, there's, that, yes, we need a separate topic just for EU management of batteries. But yes. But maybe one small thing on this one is right now there are, so there's this new law, it's right running now, I think, undergoing the process in, in the EU, you know, to get, yeah, through the different channels relate to batteries.

11:53I'm actually sure you know more about it. I just want to say, you know, encourage, I think there's quite a lot of, quite a few events and a lot of things happening at the moment and lots of politicians and ministers asking for input. So if you're in this space and you're listening to this, interested to get involved, either, you know, for free to reach out to us or also have a look online. I mean, there's, there's, now it's a really good time to, if you're interested to kind of like, you know, have your say as well and show your perspective. Now's a quite a good time as well to get involved in the process. So there's quite a few ways to get involved. Yeah. Well, great. And I think with that, we can call it for today. I feel like it's been a nice little reflection and maybe has led to some more questions that we can address or have discussed in future Clubhouse sessions.

12:38Absolutely. And next week we actually, or this, the one coming up is on battery industrialization and the week after is on Second Life. So I'm sure you're going to be quite excited about this one. Oh, more to come. Okay. Well, that's very exciting. For those of you listening, thank you for joining us and we will see you next time. That's good. See you then. Bye-bye.