Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Battery Safety

0:00Transcript

0:00Great, perfect. Thanks everyone for joining us back on our Thursday session of Battery Revolution. Super excited to have you back this week and I must say a one-week break, you know, feels a little bit odd given that it's really grown on me to do these sessions on Saturdays. So really happy to see everyone back here today. And today we have Shuram joining us on the topic of battery safety. So as always these sessions are recorded and they last for an hour and a half. We really do encourage everyone to join us on stage as early as possible. So after you know Shuram kickstart the session, we'll start letting everyone on stage. So feel free to raise your hand then. And once you're on stage, as always, we'll be really grateful if you could keep your mic on mute and if you wish to speak, just tap your mic twice like so. If you wish to applaud, just flutter your mic twice. Right, so without further ado, I'll pass on to Simon to kickstart this session and for Shuram to share on the topic as well. Thanks Simon. Thanks so much, Katherine. Yeah, and I could not agree more.

1:11It has been strange of our 30s to be off, but I think it was a good decision as well. It was nice to take a break. And I know both of our sites have been quite exciting as well. We have to speak off and focus on other things. But yeah, even more excited to be back, as you said. Yeah, this has been really nice, you know, to say Saturday activity on both of our sites for the last 30 weeks or so. We have covered all kinds of topics. As Katherine mentioned, the recorders, if you want to listen to any past sessions, you can go on batteryinsiders.com or you can also look at batteryinsiders on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, etc. And that's also in the case you have to drop out or in, you know, there's a CD in an open platform. And yeah, as Katherine said, you know, we highly encourage everyone to join. You know, I think one of the things I really enjoy here is that we have lots of different perspectives, lots of different countries represented. And I think that makes these discussions really vivid. And I think in the last session also, we had lots of, you know, back and forth and different viewpoints. And I think that makes it really fun for everyone.

2:12And yeah, and I'm super excited for today that Sriram with us, you know, talking about the topic of battery safety, which of course is an important one. We had it kind of mentioned a few times in the past. We're very excited. We're going to have a session on this completely. He maybe can also say a few words about himself as his own background from Berkeley, which personally also is really exciting, because I was fortunate to study there as well in the past. So Sriram, we'll leave it to you. And thanks so much for opening the session today. Thank you so much for inviting me over to this battery revolution session. Yeah, maybe I'll introduce myself first. I'm currently a postdoc at UC Berkeley. My background is in mechanical engineering. And I worked in the area of fire science and missions prior to this. And I've been working on batteries for just under a year now, specifically focusing on battery safety and testing for applications in space, microgravity environments where battery safety has not been explored yet. That's my background. As for today, I'm going to be talking about battery safety. We had a short discussion on battery safety towards the end of a previous battery revolution session. And so I think it's definitely pertinent to be discussing battery safety because since then, just in the last few weeks, there have been a few battery safety incidents that have occurred. For example, we had the fire and the Tesla Model S Plaid version. Following that, we had the GM recall of the Chevy Bolt, which is still ongoing. Initially, there was software patch that was sent over to all of the users. We know that that didn't work. And there were further instructions to individual users as to not park their cars inside garages and also not to charge these vehicles beyond 70%. So that recall is still ongoing. We don't know how that's going to go, whether they're going to issue a full recall to replace the battery packs like Hyundai did earlier this year for about 80,000 vehicles.

4:45And we also had safety incidents with grid energy storage. There was an incident at an Invenergy facility that was in operation. And we also had a fire in a Tesla Megapack in Australia. This was a Megapack that was not in operation. It was still being installed. So that's another new scenario where these incidents occur during installation. And we also had a couple of warehouse fires. So batteries that were in storage for a long time. And most recently, just on Thursday, we had Tesla that crashed into a gas station, which is quite weird because you don't expect Teslas to be anywhere near a gas station. So there was an incident of DIW and it required very different responses from the local fire station. And there are certain operational issues in regards to handling these fires as well. Right now, most of the first responders resort to using as much water as possible. I know foams and other powders have been tried in the past, but right now, the availability and accessibility to these novel materials to suppress fires is not available on hand with all of the fire departments. So right now, the strategy has just been use as much water as possible and keep the battery packs as cool as possible and avoid any thermal runaway cascading from one cell to the other.

6:44So these have been incidents that have occurred in the past month or so. But also looking forward, I think some of the engineering challenges are going to change because we have new ideas for how battery packs will be built in the coming years for electric vehicles. For example, the cell to pack architecture that Tesla has been using, UID in China has also been exploring this option with their blade batteries. And the issue with this particular architecture is that suppose you have failure in one cell, the number of other cells that this failure can cascade to is 100% if you have the cell to pack architecture. Whereas if you have the module system, usually the cascading from one module to the next is of lower probability than a cell to cell failure. The second aspect that's also changing in the EV industry is the rush to LFP cells. A lot of the low cost vehicles are going into the LFP side of things. There's a resurgence of LFP.

8:09Even Tesla is using the LFP cells for their Model 3s in the Chinese market. And they just announced or there are rumors that BYD will be supplying some of their blade battery technology to Tesla for their cars in China. And while the BYD blade battery seems to be quite safe in terms of being able to suppress any thermal runaway when penetrated using a nail, there are other manufacturers that will not particularly have access to this chemistry or this architecture. And they also want to go the LFP route. So we'll have to see how they come up with the the necessary thermal management systems to use any of these incidents. And I guess the more novel application that we are expecting in the future is electric aviation. We've got a bunch of startups that are interested in about 20 to 30 minute flights, short duration flights. For example, Joby Aviation, Archer, all of them will be using lithium-ion cells in the near term. We don't know how long solid-state batteries are going to take.

9:32But one of the approaches that they have taken is to use cells that are inherently safe in terms of the flammability of the electrolyte. For example, Cuberg, a company that was recently acquired by Northvolt, claims a chemistry that is completely non-flammable. And there's definitely a premium that electric aviation companies have to pay to obtain these cells. But it's certainly only part of the reason why they are interested in a cell like that. First of all, of course, these cells don't really go into violent thermal runway. But also the fact that they don't need to have any additional weight in terms of their thermal management systems aboard their aircraft. And functional safety is probably going to be a lot more challenging than fire safety. Because if you have any electrical systems failure while in the air, then you need to be able to plan your route in an efficient manner to get back to base really quickly. So that all of the electrical systems of the aircraft are functioning during that period. And I guess looking at the end of the decade when we do expect solid-state batteries, we don't know what kind of safety behavior solid-state batteries are going to have. Preliminary data suggests that the intensity of failure is going to be about 60 to 70 percent lower for solid-state batteries than current lithium-ion batteries.

11:29But we'll still have to wait and see how these cells evolve. And we'll have to come up with tests to identify what kind of scenarios will be most dangerous in terms of using solid-state batteries. I guess that's all I have for an opening statement. I'm open to questions. Thank you very much. I'm super interesting. I think it's one of these topics where going into the discussion will be really enjoyable as well. And yeah, maybe before I can already see some people raise their hand. I think I'll already put you on. But maybe you want direct questions based on all the things you described. So they're one of the issue of legacy techniques, like you mentioned, for using lots of water instead of some more tailored approaches from the fire safety side. And I think I'm just kind of curious, are you aware of any research looking at all these different technologies? Because you mentioned it's like forms and things like this. I'm just kind of currently thinking, right? Because right now I see the problem that there's just a smaller percentage, let's say, of EVs on the road. But if you look at, as we have discussed in previous session, when we look at 2030, when there's planned 50% of new sold cars going to be electric, or going to be non-emitting, so mostly electric in Europe, and also in the US, similar approaches, 100% from 2035 in Europe. I'm just curious, are you aware of any plans, how to most effectively stop these fires? Or are there like other approaches as well you're aware of?

13:21Yeah, that's a really interesting question. So in terms of using suppression systems, there's two ways to go about it. One is, of course, building something directly into the battery pack. For example, if you do have a safety incident, let's say there's a cell that goes into thermal runway, and it's starting to bend products, and you are able to sense that this failure is actually occurring within the battery pack. Right now, there's very little that we can do, because once a cell has gone into thermal runway, you know, there's not much that the thermal management system can do to reverse that process. So the best you can do at that point is ensure that the failure doesn't cascade to a neighboring cell. And if you do have cascading failure, there's been some research that's done on using fluids like Novik from 3M that's injected into the battery pack to ensure that it absorbs a lot of the heat and the failure doesn't cascade. I think it's most challenging when you already have the battery pack up in flames. Like, you know, if you have a crash scenario, the only people that can attend to it are the first responders. And like you said, we've been relying on legacy techniques by using water. I know there's been some work that's done on using foams and others, but it's not really clear where we're going to go with that because cars come with a variety of technologies, you know, NCM, LCO, NCA, these chemistries behave very differently. And so having a unified approach is going to be difficult because, you know, for the first responder, it's hard to know. It's hard for them to know what chemistry is inside that battery pack. So, you can't really have any chemistry specific containment methods. But yeah, it's an open question. And yeah, I'm curious as to how this will go in the future. Just this morning, I found out that there's going to be a training session following the incident in Austin for all the first responders because they haven't really had an incident in that area right now. So, this was the first incident and it's quite bizarre because this was a crash into a gas station. So, I guess it was, the fire was going to happen anyway. But yeah, I'm wondering what other techniques we could use, you know, whole car submersion of some sort, or if we can enclose the entire vehicle and then purge it with fluids like NOVEC, you know, that could be a containment strategy for first responders.

16:34Thank you, Stigam. Thank you very much. And now I see we have a few people who joined us on stage for this. More people are ready and I'm sure there are going to be more people as well. So, maybe you want to start with, if you have no other thing to add at this point, Catherine. Yeah, I have one question. There is a perception in the public that the electrical vehicle is more dangerous, especially from the fire than ice vehicles. Is that true or if it's not? What is your opinion or what is your knowledge? Which vehicle is easier to catch fire? Electrical vehicle or combustion engine vehicle? So, if you look at the number of fire incidents that we have, you know, and Tesla reports this, you know, they're by far the company that has the largest number of vehicles on the road, EVs on the road. And they do have an incident report every time something happens. And we see that the number of incidents, you know, let's say per thousand vehicles is much lower for EVs when compared to ICEs.

17:48But the issue really here is that the intensity of these events is much larger. You know, if an EV goes into thermal runway, it's going to be a lot more violent than when you have these failures in an ICE vehicle. And one of the other challenges is that if you've seen some of the videos from China where there are bus charging depots, if you have a failure in one vehicle, the failure can propagate to a neighboring vehicle. So, in places like a parking garage in the future where you have electrical vehicles parked next to each other, the failure can cascade very easily from one vehicle to another. Now, I'm not sure that the intensity of this cascading failure is going to be as much in ICEs as they are in EVs. So, I guess public perception is still evolving around this area. We know that adoption in Europe is going to take off pretty soon and it's happening all over. But I think the numbers say that the number of incidents in EVs is much lower.

19:20Thank you, Srikant. My loss was sufficient for now. And let's go to Srikant, maybe next. Yeah. Hi, Srikant. So, my question is basically, Tesla has introduced their 4680 battery cell, the tabless battery. I mean, obviously, they will be having higher energy density because of the silicon android use there. And the main point of the Tesla's tabless battery is about the thermal management. We have, instead of tabs, we have a strip where electrons can flow easily. So, how do you think this will all affect them? They're not exclusively talking about safety in the tabless battery sector. They're only talking about thermal management. The heat, operational heat will be reduced. But what do you think about that? Is it a much safer battery than now? The normal NMC cells, what we are using right now in cars? I would just make one correction, Srikant. We don't know if, for sure, if they will use more silicone in those batteries or not. I suspect they are not going to use more silicone than they are using in the other batteries.

20:41Yeah, that's a great question. That's certainly been in the news recently. I think they are hoping to produce more 4680 cells sometime next year. And we know that the 4680 cells are not going to go into production into any production vehicles this year. But it is true that one of the claims about the 4680 cells being safer from a thermal perspective was presented at the Battery Day event last year. And there's got to be some level of truth to that because, you know, the moment you remove some of your tabs, you eliminate a lot of your thermal gradients. And so it may be possible to manage the internal temperature of the cell a lot more easily. But in terms of thermal management strategies, I don't know how it's going to change when Tesla moves to the 4680 cell. Because if you look at the current battery packs with the 2170, these cells are only cooled on one side. You know, the coolant system runs every two cell rows. And so all cells are cooled just from one side.

22:23The moment you go into a cell that's 46 millimeters in diameter, the total energy that's stored within that cell is massive. So if you do have a failure, it's going to be very violent. So I'm wondering also as to how their thermal management strategy is going to change. Because although they might be able to handle a little bit more of abuse in terms of their operational capabilities, you know, more electrical abuse, use, be able to provide higher power, high C-rate charging and discharging, if in case there is a failure, the containment of that failure is going to be very difficult. And 4680, again, like I said, is going to be most likely used in the cell to pack architecture. So there's all the likelihood that the failure can propagate from one cell to the other cell very easily. I would like to make another small correction, Sri Ram. We don't know if they will not use the 4680 battery this year. They are planning production of their vehicles in Berlin in October of this year.

23:42So, and as of now, we know that they are going to use 4680 battery in those vehicles. Maybe it will change, but you said that they will not use this year. I understand they will use this year. And like the answer to your question, we don't know the management of the safety management in those structural battery packs. But I suspect they thought it out very carefully and I suspect that they will introduce better safety management in the structural pack than was in the other pack, previous pack. Right. So I don't know if anyone attended the investor call from Tesla a few weeks ago. And I think they mentioned that one of the main success criteria that they achieved recently was that they qualified their battery packs as being saved in a crash scenario. So definitely, they're definitely making progress. I think some of the challenges that they're having with 4680 doesn't have to do with implementing it in a vehicle, but just on the cell production side. So we'll just have to wait and see.

25:11Yeah, I mean, it's really an exciting time because introducing new types of battery and that too in a structural, as a structural battery, it might be interesting to wait and see what happens. And also, I would like to say that, I mean, it is not not only the battery chemistry or the type of battery you're using. I think BMS has many limitations in detecting all the types of faults. Okay, the basic faults can be detected easily, but the problem is thermal runaway usually happens when mostly related to internal short circuit, which happens in many different ways. So for me, the basic things that needs to be done, the basic improvements, what needs to be done, especially for electrical vehicles is early fault detection. And not just rely on battery, I mean battery management system, but other innovative methods like cloud-based monitoring, and all other different new methods coming up where we can monitor the batteries. batteries, just early detection of faults with lots of small, tiny changes which happens inside the battery, which can be really detected properly.

26:28So I think all the improvements need to be coming up together for the next version of their cars, basically. Yeah, I totally agree. One thing I do want to point out here is that the only piece of information in terms of cell temperature that the battery management system gets, or the thermal management system gets is the cell surface temperature. Right? And I mentioned this last time that for a given cell surface temperature, you can have very different internal temperatures. So, you know, detecting those faults in an appropriate manner by using history data, you know, how the cell was discharged or charged, you know, whether it was charged at 4C, was it charged at 1C, because those different scenarios result in very different internal temperatures, but can have the same surface temperature. So that's definitely an open, I mean, it's something that manufacturers have to take into account. And I also agree with the fault detection side of things, because you can't simply rely on cell surface temperature to predict failure, because most of the times are going to be too late.

27:54So it needs to be combined with a lot of the charge or discharge data, depending on what the use case is. And that does make it more challenging when cells fail non-operationally, you know, just cells in storage, cells that have been dormant for a long time. And those are completely different scenarios, but I agree with you. I agree with you. Yeah, I want to point out that we cannot judge the second generation battery on the previous data from the first generation of the battery. Okay. So for the 4680 battery, we need to wait, because we don't know a lot of details from one meeting of the battery days. We cannot judge the technology, how it will be implemented, because, and it's different battery, so from any point of view, so we cannot judge the second generation battery from the first generation data. Because of the��圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈圈 Thanks for your patience. Yeah, thank you so much. So I just want to know about what is the importance of the structural, you know, the part in the battery safety, because now the companies are launching very safety.

29:42The BYD says it's ultra safe blade battery. So the shape determines the safety or what exactly they are mentioning about. Do you have any research or some data which explains about how the structure of the battery, which directly related to the safety, not only with the chemistry, I'm talking about the structure of the battery as well. So do you have any data on it or do you have any views on it? Yeah, so there was a paper that was published recently regarding the thermal analysis of the blade battery, showing that you didn't really need as much thermal management when you go into the, when you use the blade architecture from BYD. But I guess coming back to your main question is, where does this safety come from? If you look at some of the videos from BYD, of course, these have not, these tests have been, have not been validated by other manufacturers, but they are putting it in their cars right now. So it's definitely going to be well validated internally is that these cells are punctured using a nail.

30:57So the safety does not really come from the way this, from the external structure, at least with the blade battery, I suspect that it has all to do with the internal chemistry of that cell. Cuberg also has an electrolyte that's completely non-flammable. So I am definitely inclined to say that the safety comes from the chemistry and not so much the construction of the cell. Okay, thank you so much for the answer. Yeah, I would like to add that we need to judge the, not technologies before they are commercialized, but the battery which is already commercialized in the vehicle. And second, we cannot judge them based on the, like the group of the batteries, because they're all of them today different. So they're, because they're, we don't have standardized batteries today. So basically everybody's using different, different electrolytes, different combination of the, of the things and also the safety management. So we need to judge individual battery and the commercialized, not in the technology when it is, before it is deployed to the vehicle.

32:28Yeah, thank you. And I just want to ask one more question. Recently, CATL is talking about the sodium-ion thing, as Milo's correctly mentioned right now. It's not a good time to comment on it, but I'm curious to know, they are arguing that they can mix the lithium and sodium-ion batteries in the battery packs for the automotive application. Do you think the current battery management system, which we have in the automobile industry are capable of handling this kind of various chemistry of batteries at the same time? Because as on the previous conversation, we heard a lot of fires are happening, even when we have a same battery chemistry throughout the battery pack. Do you think this complex design, the current battery management system can manage? Yes, I did notice that they were offering hybrid battery packs with both sodium-ion and lithium-ion. I think we'll have to wait and see. But one of the main reasons to go in that direction is because you can cut down on all the, some of the thermal management strategies that you have.

33:32And I suspect that the lithium-ion is really going to be used for peaking applications. For example, if you want sudden rush of power or you want to charge really fast, those are the cells that are going to take up a lot of the, you know, a lot of the peaks. And the sodium ions are probably going to be used mostly for stable current discharge and charge applications. So it's at the moment, I think it's more of a BMS electrical challenge to ensure that your cells charge and discharge. Well, from a safety perspective, I don't think it changes a whole lot. I do have to look into the electrolyte composition and the flammability of the electrolytes in the sodium-ion chemistry. So I can't comment on that, but if you've got lithium-ion cells, those challenges remain only that there are a number of cells, lithium-ion cells that you've got right now are going to be lower in number. And they're also going to be spaced out, you know, separated from one another, you know, smaller modules that are going to be spaced farther apart from each other.

34:47So if you do have a failure in one module, perhaps it won't cascade to a different, to a different module. And you can use suppression to ensure that you maintain functional safety for the required period of time. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Hey everyone. Um, I just have a question on the, from the perspective, uh, you know, EV charging networks. So we touched on, you know, the increasing trend of, uh, you know, battery, battery energy density. And I was wondering if you have any advice for companies that are operating EV charging networks on, you know, given the current trend in battery development, what are things they should be, uh, concerned about, or they should be working on in terms of, uh, making sure, you know, the charging networks are working safely with EVs. All right. Sorry, Ben, we had a order. Oh, sorry about that. Yeah. Sorry, Ben. Um, usually we go in the order that we see here on the screen. So after Bira, I feel it'd be Vimal, uh, but let's take that question, um, on hold and let's go to Vimal.

36:06Uh, thank you, Catherine. Uh, thank you, Simon, uh, Sridam, uh, it was a wonderful, uh, uh, presentation what you are giving. Um, my name is Vimal and I am not anywhere associated with electrical vehicle charging and other things. And I also thought six months before I'm not connected to all of this battery problems because it's someone else problem. It's, uh, electric vehicle or it's a mobile cellular, uh, cell phone manufacturer. But then as we started accelerating our industry 4.0 projects, uh, which I was spearheading. Um, and then like, I had so many problems at the beginning, uh, in which I thought it was a major issue for me. We started attacking and then finally we end up the battery is the biggest problem for us. Like, uh, right from the safety when we started shipping large, massive amounts of IOT equipments. And that's when the shipping department stopped me. Hey, you heard manifest says there's a lithium-ion battery inside this, all of this shipment.

37:15I need the safety data. And then like, it was eye opener for me from the safety perspective. And also, uh, the battery itself, it's like, uh, the batteries life of battery and, and the operating environment safety. Um, and even from the storage perspective, and these are all not huge battery packs, but it's 3.6 old, uh, batteries, which powers those IOT devices. My question for the panel, uh, the moderators, I see your profile. You have a very interesting profile. Um, is there is anything like we need to be like a safety standards. We need to, from the beginning follow so that we can make sure that our subcontractors and vendors, uh, can follow that. I think those safety standards of today are based on the 30 years old technology. So the safety standards, needs to be changed, uh, to today's tech class. Yeah, that's right. Um, um, really interesting question, um, as far as, um, shipping and storage is concerned, there's been a lot of work from underwriters, laboratories, uh, and prescribing and, uh, providing, uh, providing, um, uh, companies, a lot of instructions and, uh, guidelines on how to do that safely, you know, how to arrange yourselves and what kind of holdages to, um, uh, maintain and how long, uh, these can be stored, et cetera.

38:58So I would encourage you to look up some of their publicly available, um, documents that, um, that provide these guidelines. Um, uh, I think, uh, you know, one of your, um, your question also gave me, um, other aspect that I've been thinking about is the use of, uh, battery cells in their second life, the used cells being repurposed for applications in, um, other areas. For example, um, picking, uh, cells that have been used in EVs and using them in, uh, stationary energy storage applications. Now, the main challenge I think is really not a prediction of life or, um, um, or, or their, uh, charge discharge characteristics really going to be the state of health of the battery and, um, the safety because some of my preliminary experiments, um, here at the university have shown that, uh, the thermal, um, characteristics of a battery change quite a bit the moment you move to aged cells, a cell that's gone through 300, 400 cycles, um, heats up a lot differently and a lot more quickly than a cell that's, um, that's gone through 10 cycles and, uh, using them in their second life.

40:21I think the primary challenge is going to be safety and not so much, uh, other aspects. One follow up question, Sriram. Um, uh, so typically we use this devices on the surface of machines, uh, industrial equipment, uh, we come under the category of industrial IOT. Um, obviously the surface temperature of the equipment also raises and these devices even detect them. Uh, so do you think if there's a safety, uh, the battery, uh, can fail or there's a safety issue when the equipment is becoming hot on the surface? Yeah, certainly. Um, I, given that, uh, you were talking about edge devices, I also suspect that, um, there is not a lot going on in terms of thermal management, actively, um, controlling the temperature of the cell. So, uh, depending on the size of your battery, uh, battery packs, um, I would encourage you to look at, uh, you know, small, um, thermal management systems that are a little bit more sophisticated than just air cooling, um, and, you know, exposing your cells to the ambient available to these, uh, edge devices.

41:44Of course, that does require, um, additional energy consumption in, you know, in order to operate your, um, battery cells. But, uh, I think there is a possibility of using, uh, thermal management as well in, by using dielectric fluids and using a submerged system. Um, um, that could be one possibility, but certainly, you know, temperature management, um, it's going to, it's going to be critical, not just from a safety perspective, but also from, um, a performance standpoint, because, you know, if you're operating at a non-optimal temperatures, then, uh, your cell is going to, um, age a lot more quickly. And, um, after this. Yeah. Trust me, they, they die pretty fast in some cases. This is one of the pressing problem. Yeah. Um, for us. Yeah. I would like to, uh, add some views to your question, Vimal. That's true. You know, the battery is completely dynamic. Uh, there is a case study where if you take a car and ride throughout America in different states, the batteries, you know, the life will decline because it's purely depends on the temperature.

42:58For example, let me take an Indian scenario. If you take a battery car, if you go to Kashmir, the, the, the capacity or the lifetime of battery is different. If you take a car and go to Chennai and use it for some time, the capacity is different. It's purely depends on the, you know, temperature and also the environment. So I would suggest you, you can have a consulting or somebody else who can specifically work on your IOT devices, because there is no standardized protocol, especially for, there's a, some generic protocols available in the industry, but unfortunately it may not be helpful for you in your cases. So I would prefer you to have a very precise study to your IOT devices, because you can't use a liquid cooling system in IOT device because it's, it's, it's, you know, it's quite expensive also, but, uh, even a cooling system is not used in three wheeler or two wheeler batteries in Indian market. So it's quite tough to find the right solution, but with the right person to consult or with the right guy to help you, I think you can find some, uh, uh, uh, you know, solutions for your problem.

44:02Yeah. It's a very trusting problem in the industry. Thank you guys. Uh, I think I got some points and I will, I may reach out to some of you guys offline. Uh, okay. Thank you. Yeah. Just, uh, I just want to add, uh, to what Barit said. Um, I think, uh, some of the challenges, that you have with these edge devices is going to be, um, it's not going to be as severe as using it in, in an automobile application because, um, your energy, uh, use is going to be quite stable over time. You're not going to have pulses in energy requirement, uh, either charging or discharging. So, um, I think you will have, um, some data on, you know, what your energy use profile is like. And, uh, I'm sure more, you know, there's plenty of models out there, or you can conduct simple experiments to find out what your, uh, temperature profiles are going to be, and then, uh, try to, uh, combat the issue, um, as simply as possible.

45:03Thanks everyone. Let me just quickly reset the room. So we have got about, um, 30, a little more than 30 minutes left in this session. Um, I will, you know, if anyone here in the audience will have any questions or thoughts to the topic, feel free to raise your hands now and join us on stage. Um, without further ado, maybe let's move on to Gary. Hi, yes. Uh, good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening to, uh, all, um, thank you for that presentation. Sure. Um, it was a very, uh, insightful. Um, I just wanted to, uh, I guess, give a slight, uh, clarification correction with regards to Tesla dealing with, uh, with the BYD for the blade battery. That was a rumor that, I guess, propagated, uh, through several sources, uh, about a week and a half ago. And BYD in this past week has sent out a tweet denying that rumor that they were, um, working with Tesla. Uh, that being said, uh, my question is with regards to the CATL announcement regarding the sodium-ion technology.

46:15Um, I know you'd covered it with regards to the, uh, that previous question regarding mixing, but, uh, could you just sort of elaborate on the safety of sodium-ion as an ionic process, uh, uh, itself? Because we all know that sodium and water is not a very good mix, uh, um, for, um, fire suppression. So, um, if you could just sort of elaborate on sodium-ion and its safety properties. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much, Gary, for clarifying that. I hadn't come across that piece of news. And I, I think I mentioned in my initial opening, uh, remarks that, uh, it was a rumor. So, um, uh, I think, um, uh, it was a quite a departure from, um, cylindrical cells going to the blade, uh, batteries. If, if that rumor was true for, uh, Tesla, but I guess, uh, not really going in that direction, but some of those, um, uh, uh, tendencies towards going to, to LSD, uh, uh, are still out there.

47:21And I'm sure, um, the manufacturers have different ways of getting there, but in terms of, uh, the sodium-ion batteries, I don't think I have too much to say at this point, uh, because I do have to, um, do some more reading on what the exact chemistry and the components are. But I will say that, uh, uh, from, um, just in terms of comparing this to lithium-ion cells, a lot of the safety really comes from having non-flammable electrolytes. So that's where your safety is going to come from. Uh, not so much the, um, transport of the ions. So perhaps, uh, I, I suspect right now that, uh, um, there's going to be non-flammable electrolytes when you move to the sodium-ion, um, chemistry. Uh, that's why it may be safer. Great. Thank you for, uh, indulging my question. Yeah, thank you. Thanks. Let's move on to Ben. Ben, I know, uh, you had the questions asked earlier about, um, charting infrastructure, but, you know, just quickly summarize that for, for everyone's sake.

48:39That'd be great. Yeah. So my apologies again for my ignorance of the rules. Uh, I, it's, it's my second time joining this. Uh, so sorry again. Yeah. So, uh, my question is basically from the perspective of investors in charging networks, uh, you know, given the recent trend in battery development, increasing the energy density and different ion form factors. Um, so what are things that charging networks can do in order to, you know, uh, minimize the risk of, you know, battery related, uh, safety incidents, uh, mostly from the, you know, protecting, uh, basically, you know, liabilities and so on. So if you could comment on battery safety and charging networks, that'd be awesome. Thanks. Yeah, that's an interesting question. Um, I don't have a direct answer to that at the moment because we know that, um, you know, charging, um, depending on how, how well that goes and, um, can sometimes trigger, um, safety incidents, uh, from, from a fundamental perspective, a lot of these failure scenarios stem from, um, defects at the cell level.

50:06So unless there's something that's really wrong with the charging profile at these charging stations, I don't see them as being a source of, um, uh, of safety related incidents, uh, unless there, unless there's something faulty with the instruments themselves. Um, I know we're going towards, uh, uh, 350 kilowatt, uh, charging pretty soon. You know, high voltage architectures are coming up with EVs, um, that allow for really high, um, charging rates. And I think that could be a source of, uh, safety incidents in the coming, um, in the coming years. Um, but I, I, I'm not sure what exactly charging stations can do, um, directly to avoid, um, safety incidents. Yeah. Uh, I would like to add some points on, on, uh, explaining the, improving the safety in the charging station, because as rightly mentioned by Sriram, he, uh, he told that, right, most of the safety issues is happening because in the cell level and the battery structure, but also the quality of the manufacturing of the charging stations is important because of the shortage of chips and something like that.

51:19If you rely on a very quality, let's say a first tire manufacturer, then it would be very nice to have a very constant charge for a long time. But if you replace it with a cheap manufacturer, uh, which has poor quality of electronics inside the charging station, inside the charging mission, definitely it would be problematic. So if you want to have a very clear, uh, you know, output, very standardized and neat output, you want to concentrate on the, uh, power electronic system, which, where you want to source from and how quality your chips and the process you're going to have it inside the architecture. So that's what my comment on improving the efficiency of your product. That means the charging, uh, mission or charging device. Yeah. Hello. I would like to address, um, this charging issue also. So, um, just a really quick concern for like current charging facilities. There are actually quite a lot of like, um, safety concern out there, especially like most automotive company, they are aiming for fast charging.

52:28So, um, let's go for fundamental of charging. Like let's say a vehicle, it's basically over 300 volts. And like, even a lot of like, um, Porsche or European vehicle, they are going for a 800 volt standard. So under that kind of voltage, you are connecting like hundreds of sales all in series. So we all know that like charging battery is all about like balancing and that could affect battery lifetime. So imagine if you are just inputting a particular voltage and power from the charging station to the pack, but the pack itself, it's not balancing or it's not balanced well by the BMS. And in that case, like if the charging station just inputting power constantly, then the vehicle will just will blow up once like it reached the final CV condition of the battery sale. So that's why like a lot of issue happens for charging standard. So there are like many standards out there with like connector port and communication. So like the most common one, it's made by Chaudemo and it's like a, um, communication platform through cane to talk between the BMS and charging station.

53:49So, um, this kind of safety issue comes from like conventionally charging station. It's like a dummy power input. So it only knows like you want to input constant current or constant voltage under the battery, like I'm charging scenario. But, um, let's say the only thing that knows how battery behave is the BMS. So a lot of challenge comes from how, um, the BMS communicate with the charging station station to tell the station that you have to stop inputting power or I will blow up. So that's the main challenge up there. So this is like just conventional charging. But if we talk about fast charging, then it comes to another factor of thermal management. So, um, if we are going to charge the battery, especially supercharged under 30 minutes, then it could cause a lot of like heating issue. And, and, and ironically, some of the battery cell, you cannot do fast charging unless you heat it up to a certain temperature because the impedance will be lower when battery reach, let's say, um, 30 to 40 degrees Celsius, but you cannot make it exceed like, um, 50 or 55 or you will blow up the battery.

55:09So those are like temperature control, balancing impedance. Those three factors are like the main factor of fact taking the charging safety for the overall system. And that's why like, um, current charging station need to get more intelligent and need to communicate more with the BMS because actually like when you are charging, you are inputting energy into the vehicle. So that's actually like the most dangerous part for, um, the overall vehicle operation. Well, that was very insightful. Thank you so much. Um, and I was wondering just a follow up question. Is there any sort of international standard on the communication between charging networks and the BMS? Yes, there are. So it's a ISO standard, but I need to verify. So, um, but basically if you check up like charging and ISO standard, there should be like one for European and one for us. And the other one like comes from Asia, especially for China. But, um, the charging communication platform, it's quite standardized, but the issues always come from like the Ken cameras, communication and the ID definition.

56:33So, um, the, the main difference between like, um, IC vehicle, electric vehicle on the communication, it's the complexity of like, um, Ken signal. So Ken, it's like a, a, a simple platform for like sending signal all around. So you can imagine like, like it's quite, it's almost the same thing as like what your, um, computer will communicate through like wifi or with like your server, but it just like the signal type, it's different. Um, um, um, there's like a high low kind of like for Ken, but basically for Ken communication, you need to define the ID. So it's kind of similar to data labeling. So, um, the issue almost come from like, let's say if you are sending a signal, but you are not labeling it correct, then like, um, two of the communication could not be synchronized. So currently like there are ISO standard, ICE standards, and also like, um, China, I think they do have like some of the standards. So, um, it just a matter of like to, to commonize most of those standards.

57:48I hope this like answering your question. Well, thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for that. Uh, summary Gigi. Really, there are definitely lots of sources of, um, um, uh, incidents, um, in terms of safety, uh, while charging. I think you also mentioned some of the charging protocols. Uh, I think we're seeing, um, you know, most, um, our charging networks be open to, uh, manufacturers from, um, uh, all kinds of manufacturers. Even Tesla is going to open up its, uh, charging infrastructure to other vehicles. Uh, soon, uh, starting with Europe. Um, so, uh, I'm sure these protocols will be communicated to all of the manufacturers to ensure that, um, um, they can make the best use of, um, all of the, um, uh, all of the capabilities that these charging, um, uh, ports allow. I think, uh, if I can add, uh, the charging, um, uh, challenges of fast charging are going to become, um, very pronounced the moment, uh, we talk about electric aviation because, uh, the plans that, uh, Archer and Joby have presented rely heavily on, uh, supercharging or really fast charging in between flights.

59:15So that's about, you know, within 10 minutes, 15 minutes, uh, while the passengers deplane and alight the flight, um, they're going to be charging, uh, supercharging, uh, these, uh, aircrafts to, um, to beyond, uh, 80%, 90% of their, uh, capacity. So, uh, repeatedly charging and discharging, um, their, uh, vehicles and, uh, making sure that their, uh, charging infrastructure can keep up with all of those, um, uh, uh, conditions is going to be, uh, a challenge that, uh, they'll have to solve pretty soon because they don't have any of these, uh, ports or, uh, um, charging infrastructure set up yet. So, uh, we'll see how it goes. Yeah. Thank you. And also just to like add on the standard, I just check it up. It's like ISO 15118. So this one, that's the most common one internationally. So I hope this is like, um, more, um, understandable. Yeah. Thank you so much. Oh, thanks. Everyone. Dorothy, do you have a question for sure? Yes. Um, hi everyone.

1:00:38Um, yes, I, I, I have a question, um, about like startup versus established companies say, um, because startups, they are pretty good at innovating in certain aspects. Um, they can be, um, just very creative. If some startup, they, they are very, they have very good safety, um, tag, or they are very fast charging. when it comes to EV battery. Um, do you think they can occupy a niche market and gains are market shares, or do you think established companies like Tesla, because they have more money, um, to be spent in R and D and marketing? Um, do you think the future EV market will be dominated by existing player? Or do you think innovative startups will gain some niche market? Or do you think the big players will eventually just buy those smaller players? And then my second question is relating trade, um, trade conservatism. Uh, if I remember correctly, like U S band Chinese made solar panel, am I right? Do you think what it comes to EV battery?

1:02:04Uh, it's potentially possible that, uh, America, my band Chinese made, um, batteries. Yes, Liz is me, I'm speaking. Thank you. I can, if you don't mind, I can answer the first question very easy, very quickly. So, uh, it's not, uh, um, electrical vehicles are not the, uh, some novel things or environmental things. We are going to, uh, through technological disruption and each technological disruption in last, uh, 10,000 years in during the civilization. There is this, there are disruptors and there are disruptees. So basically established companies almost, uh, all, you know, almost all technological, uh, uh, technology driven disruptions. They are going out of the business. So Tesla is not established automaker. Tesla is disruptor. And there are going to be many other disruptors. So existing companies like the Mercedes, Ford, BMW, uh, uh, General Motors, they are, uh, most of them, they go out of the business. Period. I mean, recently they had a meeting in the white house with the president Biden and they were committing like, we are not going to produce CO2s, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1:03:29They are not going to be producing CO2s because the bankrupt companies cannot produce CO2. Yeah. I just want to say that, uh, I think the marketplace has space for everyone at the moment. Uh, there are startups. Uh, uh, I mean, Tesla right now is pretty big, you know, it's about 40,000, 50,000 people. So certainly one of the, uh, uh, the people that's going to have a large market share, um, in the EVs, uh, segment in the coming future, but we also see other startups, um, in that area. Um, and, uh, the legacy automakers are also getting in on it. So, uh, it's just going to become the norm, uh, pretty quickly. And, uh, there's going to be space for everyone, um, you know, legacy automakers as well as, um, startups. Um, and it's going to be room for lots of partnership as well. For example, Vivian and Ford, um, having a lot of their, um, uh, partnerships and, and, um, yeah, so. Yes, but, yes, but Vivian is not yet the automobile company.

1:04:45They didn't produce any vehicles yet. So, it's, uh, they need to prove themselves first. And, uh, and I don't understand your arguments of how the, uh, how the, uh, uh, established automakers, legacy automakers will survive. I didn't hear your argument why they would survive. Um, well, I don't really have an economic analysis of, uh, why they're going to survive, but I think, uh, they are taking steps there, uh, um, to, to get there. Um, we'll just have to wait and see. Uh, I think, uh, just in terms of manufacturing capacity, um, legacy automakers do have, uh, the capability to put vehicles on the road, uh, pretty quickly. You know, startups, uh, certainly have, that hill to climb in terms of getting their manufacturing facilities set up. Um, and, and that's what I think the partnerships are going to become really important, uh, where legacy manufacturers can use, uh, some of the technologies developed by startups and, uh, provide the manufacturing, um, expertise on hand to deliver these vehicles.

1:05:57uh, uh, respectfully, respectfully, I disagree a hundred percent. Uh, uh, uh, the electrical vehicles are not ice vehicles with the batteries. So there are new vehicles, uh, and they becoming digital electrical vehicles. And basically digital electrical vehicles are, uh, uh, uh, replacing ice vehicles, uh, during the economic, uh, creative destructions. And, uh, that's how it was done in the, uh, for over the last 10,000 years. when the iPhone, uh, they replaced the phone, when the car replaced the horses and everything else. So, um, uh, the, they have the capacity, legacy automakers, they have capacity for ice vehicles, but they don't know, they don't know to produce electric vehicles. I would like to add something which is a similar scenario, uh, in many of the cases. Example in India, we have a very great company called us ether energy. Uh, they are the first shot of, you know, two wheeler manufacturers, electric two wheeler manufacturers in India, but they do not actually manufacture their own batteries.

1:07:12They used to import their batteries from some manufacturer from, uh, I think overseas, not in India. So, yeah, I think the battery manufacturing industry will be dominated by the players, like the battery players, like CATL or the tire, top tire industries and something else like that. But startup will play a major role in implementation or maybe utilizing the batteries and develop some solutions like power wall solutions, two wheeler, uh, electric vehicle, two wheeler, something else like that. But I don't think startup, uh, can build a very big, uh, organization as its own. As, as Sriram said, partnership may help them, but I think more than 50 to 60, maybe 70, 70 to 80 percentage of the market will be dominated by the existing battery makers. I think so. It's my view, but it can change if a revolutionary technology comes to a place overnight, maybe. Yeah. I was not talking about battery, battery, uh, battery is different, uh, segment. Yes. And the battery is the key for electric vehicles, but Dorothy's question was, uh, electric vehicles, not battery.

1:08:18Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I, if I could ask something to you that I, I see this as a fundamental manufacturing problem. Um, it's cool to design prototypes that work, uh, that perform very well, but it's another, you know, scale of, uh, difficulty when you want to make batteries and vehicles at the type of scale, build at the type of scale that is, uh, you know, while maintaining profitability. So, and I see ice vehicles as that for every electric vehicles made by GM, they lose about, I think $2,000 net loss for the Chevy boat. So every EV they sell is cannibalizing a profitable gasoline vehicle. So I, to be honest, I have to agree with, uh, that I don't see how legacy manufacturers can, survive the evolution. Hey, I just want to add a point to that. Yes, it is true. Uh, the pace at which a company like Tesla are innovating. Um, it's difficult for the legacy auto manufacturers to catch up, but don't underestimate the legacy auto manufacturers, uh, manufacturers, uh, logistics, uh, presence in the market, brand recognition, and the penetration in the market.

1:09:49So, um, yes, there will be a lot of startups who will be talking about the tactics, but, uh, uh, strategically, um, and, and logistically, they still do going to be dominant player. player. And, and there will be, there will be some player will, players will be there and succeed. Uh, that, that is what my opinion on this topic. Thank you. You know, the logistics, what you are talking about, you mean mostly the established channels, how they are buying the components and how they are, uh, uh, distributing their cars. That's exactly being this trap. So, uh, uh, uh, their, uh, dealers, it's their problem. Their, uh, suppliers of the parts is their problem, not advantage. Because of that, they will go back. Uh, most of them, they will go bankrupt. I estimate like 80% of them, uh, will go bankrupt and, uh, only 20% will survive. But my estimation, I, uh, are very high. It may be 99% will go back. That's interesting. So that's everyone.

1:11:05Yeah. Great discussion. I think, uh, Catherine and Simon, I think, uh, we have, uh, um, the seeds for a future battery, uh, revolution, uh, topic. Absolutely. Uh, just making sure that everyone gets their questions in, um, uh, if they had anything regarding, um, battery safety. Yeah. So we have Mariana and Crystal have just joined us on stage. We may have 13 minutes left. Let's move on to Mariana. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. The topic from the OEMs and legacy, uh, maybe they want, they concentrate in the future as Stellantis does now. Maybe they need to concentrate to hope. Uh, also the electric, uh, revolution is not only electric. It's also software revolution. We would see like allians and concentrate. Uh, let us see how he, how it comes. But, uh, somehow there are, Volkswagen group has more than a hundred, uh, industry manufacturers. In one case that it's, uh, for them, it's the possibility to manufacture and not only in one country, there are in globally.

1:12:21And that's one point that from one, one hand, it's, it's good because you have the possibility to develop and to manufacture EVs. But in this, uh, industry, in this revolution, they need to go, uh, quick. Uh, maybe they would concentrate, uh, as I mentioned, but I think legacy manufacturing would rest, concentrate, but rest because of all the, the capital expense, capital, uh, needs that, uh, for, for doing new, uh, factories. Of course, if you have, uh, uh, uh, old factory and you don't, uh, good expense on them, then you have the problem from the, the old manufacturing. You need to, to, to act quick and to, to build new manufacturers as a legacy also. But if you built a new and you have the, the, the good software points and of course, the new, uh, batteries and all of this, uh, and you have a vertical integration, that's the, the trend and you need to do this. But I think maybe they, they concentrate, but they put, uh, remain.

1:13:32Thank you. Thanks, Maruna. Crystal, do you have any thoughts or questions to add? Um, hi. Hi, Catherine. Um, I think that with the discussion, like there, first of all, the part where we brought up the, um, what's going to happen with the, um, auto OEMs. I think that's like a, that's a very profound question. Um, I work for an auto OEM and, uh, it's hard to say. I think the strategy and like the, the mindset is different, you know, like companies that have been around for like many years and then like Tesla. So it's just like a different type of mentality, I think just fundamentally. So it'll be interesting to really figure out. I mean, we just have to see, I think, um, I think from like a beyond like a startup perspective, just from like a engineering perspective on the battery safety, specifically fire safety. Um, I think the issue is just very simple that batteries are just new. So a lot of the regulations, um, haven't really been written out yet.

1:14:45And we have, and it's hard to have like, um, to have a very robust set of regulations at the local level, like within service territories. And, um, because we haven't seen enough data given how recent the technology is. Um, so I think what it comes down to, uh, a big part of it is like the partnership and the relationship building between the existing infrastructure, like at the utility level. and with the, uh, the companies that are developing these projects. And I think there, we're going to really start to see, um, the different aspects of these projects being constructed. Like what are, how should the regulations be written and how can we have it in a standardized form? Uh, and I think that is also a crucial element to, uh, addressing the safety aspects of, um, battery technologies. Yeah. Thank you so much for those, uh, points, uh, Crystal. Um, I also want to just, uh, make a note, um, regarding what Mariano said is that, um, you know, there's going to be lots of, um, communication between legacy automakers and, um, and, uh, startups, um, or, you know, companies that are just, uh, smaller and a little bit more agile.

1:16:12And I think we're seeing the beginning of those, uh, in the remark and, uh, Bugatti partnership, you know, Bugatti has a really long history, uh, very storied, um, uh, legacy. And, uh, remark is, uh, is, uh, you know, a company that's barely about five or six years old. Um, and, uh, they're, they're, they're targeting a market segment that's in the exotics and supercar segment. Uh, but you can see why, why they went for something like that is because, you know, uh, remark brings all of the technology and, uh, knowledge, uh, in being able to build electric vehicles. And Bugatti brings all of the brand, uh, uh, visibility and, uh, the capability to manufacture these, um, of exotic vehicles at, um, uh, at scale if necessary. And ensure that, uh, they have a market that they carve out a market for, uh, for themselves. And I think, um, just like other, uh, big companies, uh, uh, you know, they're, they're always looking to, uh, um, you know, take over, uh, small companies, uh, for their technology.

1:17:22And I think we'll see a lot of that, not just in the EV space, but also generally in the battery space, the battery, um, uh, data space and cloud compute, uh, you know, cloud, uh, data storage and, uh, predictions, uh, side of things as well. Yeah. Can I answer this question? Um, not this question, this issue, the Bugatti didn't acquire Remar. Remar acquired Bugatti. So basically, uh, why Remar acquired Bugatti? Because, uh, uh, and it's only in the very small niche, uh, market of the cars because of the brand. They don't want a combustion engine of Bugatti. They want brand of Bugatti. So basically, uh, uh, this case, it would be like Tesla would acquire general motor and, uh, they would discontinue general motorized cars and they would buy it only because of the brands, which will not happen because the Tesla doesn't need to buy the other brand. But I'm saying Remar is the, uh, electrical vehicle, uh, supercar and, uh, Bugatti is combustion engine, uh, supercar.

1:18:33So now Bugatti will be one brand of Remar. Maybe one quite also additional, right? I think it's a joint venture. So I understand. So as we might get 55% and before she gets 45%, uh, uh, uh, Simon, 55%, uh, uh, control by Remar means that Remar controls Bugatti. It's a joint venture. It's a joint venture for sure. It's not joint venture. If you check up the news online, the news are misleading. The news are fake news. 55% if some company owns 55% of the other company, the other company subsidiary is not joint venture means that Bugatti subsidiary of the Remar. I I'm not talking about structure of the Remar. I'm talking about who controls whom Bugatti doesn't control Remar, but Remar control Bugatti. But they're both staying independent as well. So there's a joint venture between both, but they're also Bugatti and, um, Remar also stays on entities. So as I can tell, and also Porsche has about 24% of Remar as well. But I mean, yeah, we don't have to go into all those details.

1:19:52you are right. Maybe just, you are right. You are right. I didn't talk about who controls Remar, but I'm saying that Remar for the, for this, uh, discussion, the electrical vehicle company controls the, uh, combustion engine company, uh, vehicle and why they did it because they will change Bugatti to the, um, eventually they will change Bugatti, but it's only very small to the, uh, electrical vehicle company. So, uh, do you have in, uh, your mind doubt that the Bugatti will become the electrical vehicle company? I don't have my doubt. Well, I guess we just need to wait for a press release in the coming, uh, months and years and see if that happens. But, um, yeah, just, uh, checking if anyone, there were any other questions, uh, on the battery safety side of things. I know we talked mostly about EVs, uh, but of course, um, batteries are used in a whole, um, you know, whole array of applications. So, um, it's going to be an interesting space.

1:21:00Um, cell manufacturers usually, um, invest, uh, quite a lot of money, uh, in being able to produce a particular type of cell for a period of time. So, um, changes are going to be, uh, not as, um, quick as, uh, some people may expect. And, uh, we will see, uh, the tendency towards, uh, manufacturing, uh, cells, uh, that are safe at the chemistry level, uh, in the coming years. And, uh, eventually that will lead to solid-state batteries at the end of the decade. And we'll see how, uh, those pop up. Yeah. I would like to make a comment about that. A general comment about that. We have, uh, many, uh, kind of, we don't have standardized market for the cells and we don't have standardized market for the, uh, battery packs. We have, uh, many cells, uh, from the, from the danger risk and from the safety, uh, management. And we have even more techs, uh, from the danger level, uh, uh, danger risk and also safety, uh, management.

1:22:08So basically it's very difficult to judge, uh, like the group of the companies. If you have thousands of the variations of the safety or, uh, danger risk. Gary, please go ahead. Oh, um, I guess Catherine, you're going to be wrapping up soon. I just wanted to say thank you to Shuram for visiting, uh, this week in, uh, and offering, uh, such, uh, sensitive sites. Um, it's, uh, a very well done, uh, session today. So I also congratulations to Catherine and Simon. Thank you. Uh, Hey Gary. Absolutely. I feel very common as well. So thank you so much for joining us today. Gary for your question. Uh, I just want to say, I will try to follow up with you on the sodium-ion stuff. Um, I made a note. I'll try to follow up with you on that. Thank you. Yeah. I sent you a follow too. Thanks. Thanks Catherine and Simon. Thank you. Thanks everyone. So that wraps up today's session. Uh, uh, you know, feel free to connect with you offline and, um, connect with him on LinkedIn.

1:23:17I'm pretty sure everyone will have learned a lot from these sessions and, um, look forward to having all of you back next week as well. Yeah. Thanks so much. Yeah. Thanks so much. Also from my side, um, and everyone who joined us for today, I just want to say a quick teaser for maybe for next week as well. So next week, we are supposed to have James with us from, um, BloombergNEF for like Bloomberg new energy finance. He's the head of energy storage there and has really fascinating insights as well. We just have to 100% confirm him because he's just come back from his holiday. But hopefully it's going to work out. Otherwise we're going to have another session. And yeah, as I said in the beginning, you know, if you're interested in this topic, the free to have a look also on battery insiders.com or like on Spotify and Apple podcast, as well as some of these discussions, of course, also taking place in other formats, for example, like the BatteryMBA where Catherine also has given an excellent lecture on management.

1:24:10And we had, um, multiple lectures also in the past on energy safety. And I think it's one of these topics, which is really important. And I can just highlight, and I encourage everyone to, to keep it on their mind. Cause we have seen one thing is, you know, talking to lots of OEMs. Um, you know, that's, that's definitely one of, you know, the really important things to figure out right now. Cause of course, one thing you also didn't talk about too much today, the regulation, you know, from the government side, um, becomes also quite strict on it. Um, we can see, you know, I think you have to kind of in Europe, you have to essentially your car has to warn you a few minutes in advance, before you have a total runaway and things like that. And these kinds of things are super challenging and super exciting. And yeah, I'm sure there's many people are going to have really exciting and features in the space as well.

1:24:50Because of the regulations.