Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - BatteryDAY Insights

0:00Transcript

0:00Great. Simon, are we waiting for the rest of the team to join? Maybe just give it like 31 seconds or so. And then I think that's good. Sure, not a problem. We're going to do a review on the Better Day, which took place on Thursday. So I'm pretty sure some of you have attended the event and if you have insights, thoughts, or just what you have learned from the event in general, feel free to join us on stage right now. We can have a discussion on the other as well. Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning in. So we're just going to give a couple more seconds for people to stream in. And we'll start today talking about Better Day Insights, which took place on Thursday. So if you have attended the event and have any thoughts, just feel free to join us on stage as well. Great. Great. Simon, do you think it's a good time to kick start? Let's do it. Perfect. So thanks, everyone, for joining us today.

2:26As mentioned earlier, we are going to be talking about Battery Day and review of Battery Day and also some insights that we have learned from the event. So if you don't know what we're talking about, you've missed out a lot. No, but we're going to be talking about Battery Day and review of Battery Day and also some insights that we have learned from the event. So if you don't know what we're talking about, you've missed out a lot. And the team, Simon and the team, has been working tremendously hard on the event. So I hope they had their rest. And we'll be sharing snippets of what happened on the event. And we'll be sharing snippets of what happened on the event. And also some insights we have learned with all the great speakers and leaders from Battery companies. So feel free to join us on stage and talk about it if you were part of the event or you attended the event and let us know what you think as well.

3:31So as always, just some housekeeping rules. This session lasts for one and a half hours. And the session is recorded as well. So it's available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts after this. Feel free to check out previous episodes on those platforms as well. And yeah, feel free to join us on stage at any point in time. I think today's session will be very interactive. And once you're on stage, if you're not speaking, we will appreciate if we mute your mic. And if you wish to speak, just tap the mic twice so that we know you have something to say. And we'll arrange the order for you to speak as well. If you'd like to clap applause to anything, just flutter your mic. And yeah, show some appreciation to the speakers here. So great. Without further ado, maybe I'll pass on to Simon to kick that. Simon to kick that. Simon to kick that. Simon to kick that. Simon to kick that. Thank you so much, Catherine.

4:30And yeah, it's nice because one, as you know, we also have been co-moderating the first panel together, which was really fun in the timeline. I think you can also share some insights on this as well. And also for anybody who doesn't know it yet, we've been running these sessions for 36 weeks now, every Saturday, apart from one quick break. So we've been doing this for quite a while. And it's nice now to also kind of be involved in other events together. So hey, Mark, good to see you as well. Thank you. Good to meet you for now. And then, yeah, maybe just give a really quick overview for anybody who doesn't really know what we're talking about. You can also go on batteryday.info and you can still find, you know, the program, the speakers, et cetera, on there in case you have any questions, for example, about, you know, topics we discussed there. Even if you didn't attend, that's absolutely, really welcome. Maybe I'll just do a really quick overview and sort of a bit of context to kind of start off.

5:25So we kicked off by just introducing ourselves, what we've been doing for the past year as Battery Associates, because one year ago we also did another Battery Day, which was kind of in response to the Tesla Battery Day, one day after to essentially summarize some of their, you know, announcements, et cetera, and try to, you know, make them, you know, like, you know, provide like good insights on them, as well as have a bit of a deep dive on a couple of different topics. That's really what's like the birth kind of in some way for Battery Associates, because that's how many of us met, including, I think, Maiano here and Barath and others who are now very heavily involved also on Battery Day, but also beyond. And so, yeah, we kicked this off and then we had a year on batteries. Maybe Catherine wants to share a bit of light on this later as well. So essentially we summarize some of the biggest kind of announcements from the past year related to batteries.

6:16And of course, it's always very tricky because there's been so much going on. We try to kind of put a bit of light on some of the highlights. But this was really fun and we got a release also, I think, a video on LinkedIn on Monday, kind of posting the video we had there. Of course, there was a bit of a small glitches, but I think it was all good. And then we had a panel on, we called it a battery passport comprehension compliance, or the title we used for the panel at the end was how to maximize the value of batteries. We were talking about how can we maximize the environmental but also economic, you know, economical value of batteries over the entire lifetime or maybe even after life. So cycling, et cetera. And then we had a quick networking break just to kind of get people to mingle. And I think there's some people, I'm not sure, I think right now who was it, but there was some people actually someone I spoke afterwards who was kind of attending the entire networking and also afterwards joined on some Zoom calls because he was kind of still talking to these people he met on the networking session.

7:19So I think people really liked that. And then we had a session on, so the first panel actually on was with Luis from Circulor, Inza from Northvolt, Tillman from SYSTEMIQ and Catherine and myself were moderating. And then the second panel we had was on opportunities and battery data analytics. And so here I was really fortunate actually to have four of the founders, four of the battery data companies you might have heard of. So that includes Voltaic, Twice, Acure and Glutica. And we had all the four co-founders from them and they're all also spin outs in a way from national labs. And yeah, so it's kind of from research institutions. So it's kind of cool to also see a bit of their journey. They were sharing on this a bit as well. We had a bit of a surprise guest from Fiona, who's the CEO of Octopus EV, who like dealing a lot with EV, like leasing of EVs. They really care about, you know, how long would the batteries last.

8:17They also do vehicle to grid. They're now also energy provider together with Tesla for southern Germany. And so there's lots of really cool things going on. So this was really nice to jump in. And this also, Catherine was still moderating with me on this. And then we had a bit of a couple of deep dives. And Mayana's also on stage. Maybe we can share a bit more on this a bit later. On the ethical battery rating we're working on with battery sources. We're working group on that. We had another deep dive with Claudius from Politica on battery data analytics. Then we had another deep dive with Tillman from systemic. And circular batteries maximizing lifecycle sustainability of batteries. Then we had a nice networking break for an hour. And then after another welcome, we had another panel on solid-state batteries and materials innovation. So it was together with Dennis from CEO of Polestar, Doran, CEO and co-founder of Storedot, Srinath from Oliver Wyman, and Pooja from UCL.

9:13And Pooja, Srinath and Mariano actually have been co-authors of the white paper on solid-state we released about two weeks ago. And I think that a few hundred downloads in the meantime. So that definitely has been quite of interest in this topic. And then we had the last panel of the day, which was on diversity in training in the battery sector. We have been joined by Crystal. Kay Wallace, who just finished her PhD in Virginia Tech. And Stephanie, who is at ABB. They've been charging there. I also have been in quite a few of these previous sessions here. Dermot from Advances and Partners. So they do a lot of headhunting, recruiting, and some really fascinating stories on this. We also just did a survey with them on battery talents around the world. And then Amandine from Battery Societies, sharing some of the insights also from the work we have been doing over the past year. And some of the outlooks we have. And then we had a bit of deep dives again on battery dev, which is a global battery developer competition with Rahim, who leads this with the battery source.

10:06It's now that we had one on battery sector recruitment, sharing some of these findings from the survey with Julia. And one more deep dive on the battery cycle, which is an open source battery cycle we're developing. And in there we also had Mariano again, who's on stage here, but also Gabriel and Ali contributing to this as well. And then at the end we had a bit of an outlook on what we might can expect for the coming year. And here we have been fortunate to be joined by James from Bloomberg NEV, as well as Anna from the Global Battery Alliance, sharing a bit of some of their thoughts. And it was a nice kind of conclusion of the day. And you might remember James has been on, I think, three weeks ago, four weeks ago, has been one of these sessions. So, yeah, that's kind of a bit of an overview. And I think maybe just one quick highlight from me, I think, was, I think, something which was sad in the battery data session, because there was a question on what's like, you know, some of the hidden truth.

11:00And one of our panelists, I think, Claudius was mentioning that essentially, you know, the costs are reducing of batteries and EVs, you know, the range extending of the EVs that we're seeing, but actually the lifetime is reducing over time, because chemistries are more optimized for range and costs and things. And we have seen some issues for a lifetime. And, of course, it really depends on, you know, chemistry, et cetera. I think it was a bit of in the direction of going higher nickel and reducing cobalt in some of these MNC combinations, et cetera. So I think that was kind of interesting to see, you know, that maybe there's some different trends. And, of course, we have LFP in these kind of chemistries, what we spoke about before, which can also be a bit of counterweight. But, yeah, anyways, this was something for me I quite enjoyed, like, also thinking about what's improving, what's getting worse. And, yeah, and one other last thing, maybe James mentioned really that he expects the coming year to be the year of batteries, maybe for the US, because the past year has been quite a year for Europe, for example.

12:03And if you look at all the announcements of gigafactories, et cetera, so maybe the coming year could be the one for the US. But I guess that's something to be seen. But, yeah, I think that's a bit of my summary. And then maybe, Catherine, you want to share maybe some of your thoughts from the first part where you've been co-moderating as well. And then maybe Mariano and Mark can also contribute, and both of them have been attending as well. Great. Thanks for that, Simon. You basically covered the whole event in about five minutes, ten minutes. So, yeah, you're safe, all these people here, a lot of time, basically. But I would just like to really highlight something. You know, great kudos to the team as well. The event was, I was just reading statistics from Emma Dean, that the event was attended by 1,588 people from 44 countries. You heard me from the wrong sign, but that's a very impressive figure for, you know, the second better day that better day associates have.

13:04So, really a big applause to the team as well. Yeah, my thoughts from the first panel. Honestly, maybe before that, I think the timeline, that was impressive. And I think that's something that I don't see anywhere, you know, like a short summary of what's happened in the year. And we've covered not just from developments from OEMs, we've also covered developments from the policy side, even though, you know, it's a short synopsis that we barely have 30 or 45 seconds for each development. But still, I think putting that in the form of a timeline, that is, that's impressive. And that really shows how fast this space is developing and how many changes there are. And, you know, it's definitely something to just keep updating and keep looking at. And I look forward to kind of seeing how that evolves during the next battery day in 2022. So, you know, once the battery day timeline is up on the relevant platforms, please do feel free to check that out.

14:18I think that's very informative. And that's something very useful personally for me. Yeah, so moving on to panel one, I think we had a really great start with the first panel, you know, like talking about how to maximize the value of batteries. I think that topic itself just covers a lot of things ranging from not just environmental standpoint, also from the economic standpoint, about second life. We also talk about supply chain and especially like what Lewis said about, you know, the linear value chain becoming secular, where recyclers become upstream suppliers. I think, I think, I think that's a very powerful statement. And I especially like that idea. How we looked at second life as well, you know, with people supporting that idea. And also people saying, look, you know, from the economic side, something that we should be concerned of. Will it ultimately be replaced by first life batteries because of the cost that's dropping significantly? And again, from Yumiko, who is also part of panel one, he was just a big bent in talking about second life.

15:32So, so his perspective on that was very interesting as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I think when we talked about, you know, the second panel with all the different CEOs from battery data companies, that was, that was powerful. So we have different perspectives and then we have Fiona joining us talking about, you know, how much data they have for a leasing space. How transformative they will be if data can be collected and used to basically, you know, enable people to switch to EVs as soon as possible. And also to support business models as in these, in these areas. So that's, that's, I think also another enabler for, for, for the industry. And that's when we talked about how battery data has been linked to battery passport, which is the first panel that we're talking about. That's also something that that's very informative and, you know, for me, it's definitely a first. So, yeah, I think there are a lot of key takeaways for me. You know, I really kind of summarize everything at one go, but all in all, I think panel, the first two and a half hours of the event, it was great for me.

16:49It was great moderating, great hearing from all the other speakers and all the distinguished guests that we have as well. And there were so many questions from the audience. And, you know, it's typical of what happened, what happens during battery revolution as well, where we get a lot of questions for the panelists. But that was great. I really liked how interactive it is too. Yeah. So, so, you know, before I continue to ramble on about my thoughts, maybe Mariano, what do you think about the event? And what are some of the key takeaways? Very quiet Mariano. Your turn of the sound. Getting a bit better. Okay. Maybe I have a poor connection. If it doesn't work, tell me, please. Okay. From, from the summary itself, I like all the news because, as Theribs told at the very end, nowadays there are a lot of news from Europe, from the new revolution proposal. And after that also from the CRTL from the sodium-ion and also from China from the regulation stopping and lots of gigafactories in developing and thinking, I think, hopefully, the US also has its own new proposal regulation and also of course, the gigafactories.

18:25From the summary, all its, let's say lots of news and it was not that easy to fulfill the trends more from our point of view, from what is this point of view about the, no, but it's not that easy to fulfill the trends. Every year would be like this, hopefully, with the investment that are coming. So, we can say news and, I think, next year and the coming years, we also offer nice news from the solid-state battery. So, I think, the panel of solid-state was of course, very, very infortim, very nice to see how kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup kup new coming batteries, sorry state, give us the possibility to be better in some of the key points that batteries need to come from many types.

20:05Another point that I like, of course, that Catherine told is the sustainability, the battery passports, the whole thing about the circular economy, second life, traceability of the circular. It was also informative because nowadays one of the key points for having the sustainability with the traceability of the blockchain that the circular offers, I think is one of the points that cover also the new regulation proposal from Europe. And after that, one of the points that I cover with the team, for the ethical battery rating, with lots of questions from Roger Atkins, Mark, you are here, and Tania, also geologists. It was very, very interesting how this topic, this design was leading because we explained in the very first all the regulations, all regulations of social coin of new and the new regulation of new and of care from one year, and there's a lot of news coming from the site of batteries because we need to do it, let's say, with social activity in mind to have no problems in seven, eight, nine, ten years when the batteries, let's say, new batteries coming, when it's renewable and you have this deconize facility or recycling.

21:46Okay, then on the topic of the audit, I want to share some insights. Let's say two insights from the ethical battery rating. One insight would be the perspective of the consumer that is needed from our view to have the ability of the battery insights. Let's say for us, we think that it's very important that every consumer knows the ability of his own battery that they have to use, the same as when you buy, let's say, a refrigerator or other kind of… Yes, nowadays, you can see this rating, also when you buy Apple or some… From our perspective, it's very important to have this view, the easy view, and for the consumer also. And it would be also very, let's say, revolution from our side, also for the OEMs, because the sustainability is need to go ahead, you know, to have the news and to achieve that in 10 years, we have no problem with the batteries. And also, we have the new new that we want… We plan to have a course on supply chain management next year, Battery Associates, and that day, and Thursday, Battery Day, we put in place this possibility.

23:31And the idea was very welcome of all the colleagues that were there in the EBR deep dive. And we are, let's say, nice. Our team was with a lot of energy because it was very interesting for us from the EBR perspective. Okay, I go after that. I want to explain also the other details I was involved. It is the battery cycler, open source battery cycler. And for that, we present the idea that we want to have this open source battery cycler as cheap as possible, with the topics, with the specs that we think, and we have the information from the industry that, let's say, are the range medium high, but not very high, no, over engineering the battery cycler to keep the battery cycler as cheap as possible. And we explain how well… And we explain how… Who was the challenge, the actual challenge from the battery cycler specification. And we… Because if you… One of the challenges I can tell that is the business plan challenge because all open source, it's not easy to have this traceability from business.

25:02But as Simon has done lots of information from battery cycler, we have now… We are lucky now to have nice companies that want to be the early adopter of the battery cycler. We want to have the first version before December, before January, let's say in December. That was for academic perspective point of view. And the thing is that we have there a newsletter. If you want to have the news… To know the news of the battery cycler, you could go and click on the battery cycler news in the website from battery sources. Okay, if… That's… From my side, maybe I speak too much. Thank you. And hopefully, I have a nice discussion. Great. Thanks so much for that, Mariana. Let's have Mark who has joined us on stage a while back. Mark, were you part of the event? Mark, are you there? Mark, are you there? Yeah, hey. Yeah, I had some thoughts about the event. You know, it started here at 4 a.m. my time in Reno.

26:31And it started out with a bang. You know, it started out with the first panel was very strong. I was very impressed with the level of expertise by the people involved. And I realized that the focus of this event wasn't for even specifically recycling, but a lot of the questions came up involving recycling because people are curious. People, because of, you know, the value of sustainability of lithium-ion batteries, how are we going to reuse them? How are we going to find supply? And, you know, they answered them reasonably well. I realized that not all of them, that was their expertise. But I was really impressed that people are very interested in this area. And, of course, that's my area of expertise here in Reno. And the questions, the answers they gave were good. I liked their answers, even though that wasn't their area of expertise. And, again, I want to thank the people involved in this event. You know, there are not many people putting out events with 500-plus people that are free for eight hours.

27:34I don't think there are any regarding emerging fields, specifically the battery field. And I was really glad to have that available to me. Some of the other thoughts, I'm just going to quickly go through the event. I really enjoyed the networking, you know, between sessions. There was, you know, you could connect with people from different continents and different fields. And I really learned a lot. I connect with a lot of people on LinkedIn, people that I just would have never met in any other situation. And I was very helpful. And I hope we have more events with that type of round-robin connection with people. I certainly ask some questions. I'm always very, you know, I always, as when people talk about ethical battery, ethical this, I just really, seeing the supply chain, really honestly saying, oh, this is ethical. I'm always very hesitant to believe these things. I just, because kind of from the mind background, I know how things appear and disappear and claim to be this.

28:39I know with, say, for example, with diamonds, there was this ethical, you know, diamonds for a while. It turned out that it was basically a failure. All the problem diamonds were ending up in places they shouldn't have and become ethical again. The unethical became the ethical. And so I'm just very hesitant to believe when people say this is ethical and we see it's ethical. But, you know, you're using a product that came from China, which came from, products came from Rwanda or Sierra Leone or, you know, DRC. So that's my question. I like some of the more technical discussion. You know, Mariano had a discussion he led. And, you know, I really like the overall layout and the organization and looking forward to more of these. And thank you. Those are my thoughts. Thank you very much, Mark. Thank you very much, Mark. Actually, it was great to see you also in the networking itself. It was nice to see you there. Maybe also one thing I should just say, because you might be wondering how could we make this for free, right?

29:49Because you said it was like an eight hour event. It wasn't a proper platform and lots of other work, lots of, you know, work went into this. But it's also possible because we actually had a bunch of really amazing sponsors. So I just quickly mentioned them. So we had like Circulo and a Scotland sponsor. So they do like traceability for batteries. Then we had Voltaic and Politica, like Gnostics are sponsors. So both battery data companies and Storedot work on, you know, fast charging materials, et cetera. Several sponsors, and then we had bond sponsors twice. And Acure, both also battery data companies as well as Avens as partners, recruiting and systemic from consulting as bond sponsors. So I just want to quickly mention that because that's also really, you know, crucial to kind of get these partnerships. And maybe as a quick addition, one year ago, we also did the same event and we also tried to find sponsors. And at the time, I think we had an envy got one booth sponsor.

30:39So it wasn't much money. It was quite a money loss to be honest, a year ago. But this time, you know, it was better. So, yeah, that's also maybe one thing. It's from our side, you know, we're quite glad about it. And I think next year, you know, we have some even more ambitious plans. Maybe they're also in person come home and we can see. But we always want to keep it definitely also online first, because I think that's what enable most people to see it. And, you know, we can really bring this global groups of people together. And I think that's really what we enjoy doing and trying to make it as inclusive as possible. But that's maybe just a few cents on the organization for and how we could make this happen. And then there also was a project and VIP ticket for people who want to get the recordings as well as VIP ticket to get some VIP networking opportunities. Great. Is somebody anybody else here in the audience have any thoughts on this?

31:29You can also get any of the topics we discussed. It doesn't have to be about the event itself. We appreciate that. No, not everyone could be there. So that's absolutely fine. But if you have any thoughts on any of the topics we covered on, or even just kind of thinking, you know, what we might see by the next year, because that has been the one question we asked every single panel. What are you hoping for in a year's time? What are you hoping or expecting to see in a year's time? And I think there were lots of interesting ideas. And I'm sure many people in the audience also have some. But if I can explain my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, If we think about it, it's not that easy for developing the batteries.

32:48The need of data is there, but it's not easy to have a company to have, let's say, to sell the product, let's say the data. And with that, to have open source for other companies also to take advantage of the data. It was a nice discussion with Twice. And also, other topic that was, let's say, also interesting from my side, this was when Storedot, in the solid-state battery, told, when you asked him, Simon, the topic about how they could grow with, let's say, how they could grow exponentially, Storedot. And he told one point that's interesting from a startup point of view, let's say, that was when they acquired the big players. The players, Storedot told that normally it would be acquired, let's say, a startup. And in time, the big players coming with the news that the startup have, let's say, with a new battery or new technology on WhatsApp. That was another point that was interesting to see, what was the idea from Storedot for himself.

34:27Okay, if I could say more on the battery day, because it was nice in Symphony. The carrier was, for me, also the diversity, the diversity, the details was very, very nice. It was one hour of speaking with, I think, three women speaking with Stephanie from MBB and Crystal. It was, of course, Amandine, and it was amazing to see the needs of the woman in the battery field, because Stephanie itself, she is looking for some colleagues to give the opportunity to work with ABB, and let's say women colleagues, and it's not that easy for her to, Fabina. Let's say it's important that also we give the possibility to all the women to come in the battery field, and let's say to keep in contact, not thinking that the battery field is only for men. Of course, diversity is one of the topics, very topic also for battery associates. As someone all times mentioned, the BatteryMBA. Hopefully, we keep 50-50, and that is also very, very important, because diversity is one of the biggest topics in general, not only in the battery field, of course.

36:06But it was very nice details to see two great women, three great women, let's say, and coming with very nice news, because Stephanie, I know her from the battery colleague of BatteryMBA, and it's wonderful to see the new formula cars coming from L-E, and it was amazing. Thank you. Thank you for sharing, my honor. Yeah. No, also for me, it was really nice, this panel. And also, I mean, Stephanie also was amazing to just see how everyone is doing their amazing work, and I think so many important initiatives I take from all around the world, and it's just, yeah. So it's really nice to see and kind of see how they're all growing and developing further. And as you say, also, it's kind of, it's a little about capacity building as well, I think, you know, because at the end of the day, as you said, you know, the more kind of people go up in their leadership, you know, the more hiring they have to do and kind of find the right people, et cetera.

37:13I think for this, also, these events, it can also be helpful because, you know, you always find new people and meet new people. And who knows, maybe at some day, you know, you want to, you're looking for someone who can work with you on something, and you maybe already know them. So that's, I think, also quite useful. Fantastic. Any other thoughts? Anybody in the audience? I know some people are busy or walking around. That's not an issue at all, but just, you know, anything else you'd like to talk about. Or otherwise, also looking at the time, you know, I think maybe today we keep it to an hour or so to keep it brief because I always have to go on a train to Berlin pretty shortly afterwards for another conference. But because also Catherine and I were just thinking about what kind of the next topics we want to cover. I think we have about six, seven, eight or so people already kind of, you know, to be scheduled at some point.

38:03And we probably will now start doing this a bit more again when we have done the battery day, which took a lot of our energy, I think, to just organize and arrange. But I think now we want to kind of go maybe a bit back to the regular program of having, you know, a conversation starter once a week on a different topic. So also if any of you has any ideas, you know, what are some of the topics you might want to cover in some of the future weeks, please, please share this as well. And if you cannot speak, be free to also send a message to Catherine and myself. And that's also, of course, possible. Thank you. I think one of the topics that it's one of the main concerns and also Milos told, let's say every week it's the supply chain management. I think it's one of the topics that we need to cover more and more because supply chain in the battery field with exponential needs.

39:08It's, let's say, crazy to keep a regular and with the big players without a problem. Let's say if the big players have all over, let's say it's supply chain, one of the topics that we, in my opinion, we need to think about. Maybe Milos, you can come and you can stay. You can say something. Yes, I can say something. What do you mean about supply? How important is to build a supply chain? Yes, I can talk obviously about it. We need to build massive supply value chain, especially materials. Basically, we have in the world right now more than 600 models of electrical vehicles. But they cannot produce them if they don't have batteries. We would have enough battery giga plants because we are building them very fast, like the mushrooms. We have more than 225 now in the pipeline. But those batteries are only giga buildings, giga real estate if they don't have materials. So we need to build batteries for, we need to go from last year production of more than 200 gigawatt hours to about 20,000 gigawatt hours, means 20 terawatt hours.

40:52That's how much there is demand per year for the batteries. It means that we need to build 100 times more mines, 100 times more processing plants, and 100 times more active material manufacturing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I mean, the first is the size of the supply value chain, and then comes also this localization of the supply chain. Because right now, these materials are going from Africa to China, from China to Japan, from Japan to Korea, and from Korea to United States, let's say. So that's the road of the materials only for the battery. And so obviously, there is a lot of efficiency which can be achieved. So to think how we are going to build the supply value chain or how we are going to optimize the supply value chain is also important, but that comes after that. Because first, we need to build mines and we need to build processing plants. And then, but at the same time, basically, we are also thinking where we are going to build them, like processing plants.

43:10Mines, in many cases, we don't have choice because there are some deposits in those countries. Well, nice that you mentioned all this localization, let's say, breath, because one material could have more. I see some information about how many miles and how many kilometers the materials before coming to the gigafactor or before coming to the cell manufacturing. It's incredible, no? That's one of the topics that we want to cover in the EBR, in the ethical battery rating, to mention that there are best practices. You could have a best practice of all of this. And that is also to show this best practice. We think that ethical battery rating could be a good facility. I think that's a good discussion. You're welcome to go ahead. Again, I expressed my concern about the ethical battery rating because it's just very complicated. We have to have mining for the near term for most of these supply chain things because they're more developed in many cases. And in many cases, it's much easier to get a lithium product, for example, from a mine than, say, from a recycled product.

44:45And just in terms of some of the technical challenges with an ethical lithium product, we have to start with mining and we have to localize it, as you mentioned before. But I think we can move more towards an ethical battery, but we just have to focus more on actually getting supply chain built and actually then localize and then focus more on the ethical battery. That's my thought. I think we have to focus more on the other side of the supply chain. Yeah, but we need to have mining for at least next 30 years or even more because from recycling we can get in the next decade maybe like 10%. The decade after that maybe we can increase it. But we need to grow the battery materials exponentially. It means that we cannot do it without the mining. Everything what we have in the world, all the physical stuff, starts with the mining. You're exactly correct. There's really, it's nice to talk about recycling. I think it's important.

45:55But at the same time, really, if only 10% is available and it's growing by a factor of five. Yeah. And a lot of that, even the second, a lot of that will take into life batteries that go to second life. We have to find more mining. And yeah, hopefully we can have more sustainable processing methods. And that's sort of my hope, more carbon neutral processing methods available in mining. And yeah. Yes, you are right. I mean, we need to, we are not talking if, but we are talking how. So it means that you can mine responsibly or you can mine not responsibly. So, but like my background is steel industry. For 200 years, we have the mining growing, growing, growing, growing, growing, and we can recycle 100% of the steel. So, 200 years later, at about one third of the steel can come from the recycling. And we are, like I said, we are still in the three, we are recycling 100%. But steel, two thirds of the steel comes from the mining.

47:08Yeah, what I would say is that, between the United States, you know, we've had, in regard to electronic scrap, we've just really, in the past, not recycled it very well. And it's really embarrassing that people retract electronic scrap. The key is that a lot of it goes to other countries, where it's processed in a very non-sustainable way. And so I think that we just want to make sure that at the end of life, at least it's captured, recycled, and processed, and done so in a better way. That's the hope. Yeah, for recycling, you need to have an economy of the scale. So you need to have enough batteries to recycle. But fortunately, we are on the way to have enough batteries to recycle, means the next decade. And this decade, we can perfect the technologies. We know already now, there are companies in the United States which they can recycle 95% of the battery materials. So, it's not economical to disassemble them, you need to recycle them.

48:13You need to mail them, but you need to mail them responsibly. So, in a technologically feasible way. I agree. Nice, nice discussion about the recycling. I would also mention that we need to go step by step. Okay, that's one of the things that... Because, let's say, we have news from last week that Circulor was with, nowadays, with other new OEM. And that's the need that we have, first of all, traceability of all the supply chain. And we know... I'd say we need to go step by step. But the need is there to have the traceability. And, of course, we need to have a growth exponentially with the mining and recycling. But the topic of traceability, I think, is one of the biggest topics. One of the biggest topics, no. For having to ensure that the sustainability is already in place. That is not traceability from my side. Yeah, I would argue the opposite way. We cannot do it in the market economy. In the free market, we cannot do it traceability.

49:49Because you can trace it in one country. We have global economy. So, the other country will not trace it. So, it's not feasible to do it. It's feasible to do it in socialism and communism. In the free market, it's not feasible to trace the... How it was done and so on and so on. Because you cannot decrease the standard of the living. You cannot go to... You cannot lower human progress. Human progress will go on. Like it goes for millions of the years. And you cannot tell the people in India they cannot have a better life tomorrow. And bureaucracy, it's communism. I grew up in communism. So, I am totally against the communism. I am totally against the bureaucrats to tell me what I am saying. I think there... I think my list has a point. Is that we have to focus more on the technical solutions than the bureaucratic solutions. And that's, you know, being in my mindset, we have to focus on moving forward quickly.

50:55We have to be enough production, supply chains. Maybe traceability, maybe. But we have to focus more on the actual solutions. Because ultimately, more batteries, a better supply chain will lead to a better environmental footprint. So, yeah. Yeah, I am thinking from morning to morning how to accelerate the energy disruption. So, the bureaucracy and government in many cases, it's slowing down the energy disruption. And trace... And various kinds of the bureaucratic policies are slowing down technological innovation or deploying the technologies, commercializing the technologies for the companies. Free market is supporting the innovation. And only free market can innovate. The government cannot innovate anything because government doesn't create anything. The government is just stealing money from the poor and the middle class and giving today's government... Nice discussion. I think one of the topics that the New September or the Times is not right, and that is one of the topics that the government could be, let's say, above all the business models. You know, that's very important.

52:23And that is one of the topics of the New September. Right? And, of course, this proposal from the... That is one of the... That is one of the topics that we have to do with the government. And, of course, this government is not easy because... From... From... When a country allows to do something... Without... In a question... A bit of a question... Is a problem... The country... From... From... From my side... From the country side... It's a problem... But, I think it's important to think... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... In... Yeah. And we have to ensure that, not that we, of course, may be years, but we need to start. Thanks for that, everyone. So I think definitely a good topic to follow up will be supply chain. And also probably about, you know, what we talked about, about policy and about innovation.

54:14I think we can have a discussion on that as well, but these are great topics. So thanks everyone for your suggestion and also the discussion. If anyone else has any other thoughts on future topics or future speakers that we should invite, just feel free to drop myself and sign a message. And obviously anything relating to batteries and EVs would be something that we would love to talk about. So just send anyone that you think should appear on these sessions. You know, send their contacts to us, send their information to us, and we will be in touch as well. So, yes, as mentioned earlier about Simon, we will be ending today's session early. So look, everyone look forward to our session next week. And I'll just pass on to Simon to say some concluding remarks and we'll end up the session. Thanks, Katherine. Yeah, and thanks everyone for joining and sharing your insights and your takeaways from the battery day. That's also something really nice to hear as well.

55:22Especially when putting a lot of work into it. It's always nice to hear that people also got something out of it. And, yeah, so I think, as you said, this is our 36th week. I think next week we have pretty certainly one of our conversation starters we have been speaking to. I just put in also the event here so you already know that it's actually something happening. But we will add the speaker closer to the date. And, yeah, just really nice to see you all and hopefully see you all again next week. And we're going to bring one of our nice conversation starters on an interesting topic for the coming week. Then we can discuss this again. But for now, thanks everyone for joining and see you again next week. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye everyone. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye, Katrin. Bye Simon. Bye, Mariano. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye.