Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Deep Dive into Solid State Batteries

0:00Transcript

0:00Well, hi everyone. Good afternoon, good evening, good morning wherever you are. And thanks for joining us on our 37th session of Battery Revolution. And today we're very happy to be talking about solid-state batteries, which is a white paper that Battery Associates published a while back. So we're very happy to have Mariano joining us today. Unfortunately, our usual host, Simon, couldn't make it today. He's stuck somewhere with really bad Wi-Fi. So he's unable to join us today. But so same old, this session will last for one and a half hours. And, you know, as always, we do encourage everyone to join us on stage to ask any questions as early as you can. And these sessions are also recorded and available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts under Battery Insiders after the session has ended. So feel free to check up the podcast for our earlier sessions, which we'll talk about battery recycling, supply chain, etc. So a wide variety of topics. You check them out.

1:08And just for everyone's sake, who's new to battery revolution, we've been around for exactly 37 weeks. So Simon and myself, who is my co-host, we started this on Clubhouse where we met. And we just thought we wanted to gather everyone who's interested in batteries to talk about, you know, whatever that interests them, be it news or specific topics. And sometimes we do deep dives like today where we'll be talking about solid states. And we've been wanting to actually do this topic for quite some time now. And it's good that I think right now we have this chance to be able to leverage on the white paper to do a deep dive on the topic. So, yes, if you have any questions, just feel free to raise your hand. And Mariano and myself will add you on stage wherever we see a request for that. And once you're on stage, we'll be grateful if you could mute yourself when you're not speaking. And we really appreciate giving everyone the chance to speak.

2:15So we'll go in the order that we see here on stage. And if you wish to speak, just feel free to tap your mic twice like so. And if you wish to applause to anything, just flutter your mic like so. Great. So I think everyone now should be pretty familiar with some of these basic clubhouse rules. But I'm just repeating for the sake of people who are new to this. And if you're also new to Backstreet Revolution, feel free to tap on our icon right there above. And to join the club, we do sessions every Saturday at 3 p.m. CET to 4.30 p.m. CET. Great. So without further ado, I will pass on later to Mariano to introduce himself and also to give some context to the topic that we'll be talking about today. But just to give everyone a flavor of the white paper that we have. So it's a white paper published by Battery Associates. Simon is from Battery Associates, as some of you may know.

3:20And they're doing great work, be it the battery data that actually just ended last week, which is a great turnout. And also, you know, publishing white papers and publishing news in this space just to educate everyone. They also have a very exciting course called BatteryMBA. Feel free to check out with Simon if you're interested in that. But in any case, this solid-state batteries white paper actually got a lot of publicity. Ever since it was published, they've actually gotten 250 downloads. So, you know, it's a great article. And I do encourage you to check it out. It's been written by Ardiel Mariano here, who's here on stage. And also Pooja, Pooja Varfa, and also Dr. Sreenath Renagaranja. Feel free to check them out on LinkedIn. They're all ambassadors at Battery Associates and also veterans in the space, in the research area of solid-state batteries. Hi, Mariano. Hi. Hi. Yeah, sorry. I'm just going to finish up introductions here and I would love you to chime in on a topic.

4:34So, yeah. So, maybe let's just do a deep dive right now into solid states and just to give everyone an idea of where we are at. You know, there's been a lot of reports these past few months talking about whether OEMs are getting into this space or startups that are blooming in the solid-state batteries. So, we have some statistics here that I would like to share with you. There's a recent report by ID Tech, which estimated that the market for SSBs would take off by 2025 and grow into an $8 billion market by 2031. So, according to estimates from a further institution, SSBs could penetrate 7% of the consumer electronics market and 4% of the EV market by 2030. And concurrently, you know, we have seen a lot of OEMs or battery giants that are doing this space. Say, for example, we see CATL looking at this and also they have also looked into advanced, you know, beyond lithium-ion cells. They have looked into lithium-ion as well, which is really interesting.

5:45We have also seen a lot of developments in lithium-sulfur or metal-air batteries. But, you know, these are just all the different types of battery chemistry that people have worked on. So, yeah, we would love to hear more from Mariano on what's your take on SSBs. Where are we at right now? Will we be able to meet the target, as mentioned earlier, which is, you know, having them in EVs by 2030? And, you know, just generally some of the basics of SSBs, solid-state batteries, and also what are the current challenges? And perhaps also in terms of manufacturing, what are some of the obstacles that we have to overcome? But first and foremost, we would love to, you know, have Mariano introduce yourself and maybe do a deep dive on the topic. Mariano, the mic is yours. Thank you, Catherine. Yeah. The solid-state battery, for me, one of the new, let's say, topic that I love to go deeper all this month ahead. And one topic important, any solid-state battery-related questions that occur to you during this initial comment, please ask and to go to a stage.

7:14Because the interaction, it makes this session most interesting, no? Well, as my colleague Catherine has commented a few weeks ago, the white paper about solid-state battery was presented, of which I am co-authored together with Pucha, Bafthia, and Dr. Srinath Rengarajaran. And I will try to make a summary of this white paper. And after that, some of the news from the solid-state battery, no? Okay. First of all, I would ask, I would explain some general commons from solid-state battery that are analogous to conventional lithium-ion batteries, in that the battery consists of an anode of cathode. But instead of being separated by a porous separator, which is soaked with electrolyte, the electrolytes are instead separated by a solid electrolyte. This is advantageous as a flammable liquid electrolyte is renewed, making the solid-state battery inherently safe and mitigating the need for an expensive cooling system for EVPs. Another major advantage is that solid-state battery can make the use of lithium-ion-methyl-annos, since the build-up of lithium-metal during plating and stripping, also known as dendrite formation and propagation, is impeded.

8:54Dendrites can propagate from the anode to the cathode and short-circuit the cell, which is why graphite is used instead of lithium-methyl-annos in lithium-ion batteries today. The solid electrolyte, however, could mechanically stop the lithium-ion-dendrites from propagating and short-circuit the cell. Furthermore, lithium-metal-annos have 10 times greater theoretical specific capacity compared with conventional graphite annos, meaning that solid-state battery can have gravimetric energy density, watt-hour, kilowatt-two, greater than today. The types of solid electrolyte can be split in two main groups, inorganic and organic. The latter are the solid polymer and gel-type materials, which are flexible and exhibit low flammability, but also have a low conductivity at room temperature, which limits the commensalization for EVs. Inorganic solid electrolytes, however, have a much higher ionic conductivity that can match or even exceed the liquid electrolyte. Therefore, the interest for EV makers looking to commercialize and scale the solid electrolyte predominantly lies for inorganic solid electrolyte. Broadly, this can be separated into two main categories, oxides and soft sulfides. Oxides and solid electrolytes have good chemical stability in air, but risk of toxic gas release, lysimethan and mechanical stability can help surprise dentures, but rarely show ductility with high elastic modulus.

10:58Requiring high sintering temperatures and so cannot be cold pressed with cathode particles is less suitable for manufacturing. Sulfide solid electrolytes generally have high ionic conductivity. Lower sintering temperatures can be cold pressed with cathode particles at room temperature, low temperature heating. However, they have low mechanical stability against lithium metal and ability to surprise dentures. Low electrochemical stability decompose into resistive layers and have to be processed in air-sensitive environments, which increase manufacturing costs. Hybrid solution of inorganic solid electrolyte mixed with polymer solid electrolyte could offer better contacts with the electrolytes, electrodes similar to conventional lithium-ion batteries manufactured, while surpassing lithium dendrite formation due to the chemical nature of a solid electrolyte compared to a liquid one. However, there will be a trade-off in terms of ionic conductivity, as the polymer electrolytes will reduce the overall conductivity of the hybrid solid electrolyte. Additionally, one of the greatest challenges for hybrid solid electrolyte is the interface stability between the polymer matrix and the inorganic solid electrolyte, which impacts the performance of the cell due to the high interfacial impedance.

12:39If we come to the production and its industrialization, the major processes in the battery manufacturing include electrolyte production, cell production, and cell conditioning. This may have to be altered by solid electrolyte, solid-state battery dependent on solid electrolyte properties. In terms of electrodes, it is important to consider the development of lithium-methyl and silicon-anos, while lithium-methyl anodes could be ideal because of their capacity to achieve high energy density. They need to be handled in an inner atmosphere since lithium could form a passivating layer with an ambient oxygen. Silicon-anodes, on the other hand, can undergo extreme value change during a low formation with lithium. Cathol materials are rarely more established, but it must have minimum specific capacity, adding an AT. In other words, cathol solutions are easier to process by mixing power together than oxide, solid electrolyte. In the case of cell production, the staking process in poached cells seems to be an advantage for solid-state batteries, since the flat layers do not wrap and the layer compound can be formed during and electrolyte production. The required dynamic coupling requires advanced coating technologies to have control over form factor interface and microstructure. In contrast round or prismatic cells formats manufactured by the winding process have significant associated challenges for solid electrolyte due to the solid mechanical nature of the solid electrolyte and layer addition.

14:49A manufacturing consideration. A three layer approach can be adopted. This involves creating one layer of the electrode with a pores form sintering away the pore form and infilling the cathode with solid electrolyte. Alternatively two layers of solid electrolyte can be processed during on top of each other one with the pore form and one without. A concentric a porous form framework will have left behind that can infill it with a cathode. This enables interconnect ion transport pathways in the cathode. However this release one processing techniques that are inherent slower and which can drive up the cost of manufacturing. Further the control over interface integration of energy dense and anode-free concepts can impact staking, calendering and processing. Lithium metal manufacturing also has another layer of complexity. This can occur either by calendering and rolling bulk material or throat and extraction process. While the manufacturing of anode and cathode are specially separate they follow very similar process steps like mixing, coating, drying and calendering. If the solid electrolyte is processed using the coating process, the will be three coating process instead of two. On similar lines there are some aspects of solid solid-state battery manufacturing which are different to lithium-ion batteries manufacturing and need consideration.

16:46For example, anode-free solid-state batteries remove the needs to handle lithium metal during manufacturing, reducing the high cost associated with handling with thin layers. To exceed the energy density of state-of-house lithium-ion batteries, solid to solid to nitrolytolite needs to be thin, ideally 20 microns and depending on varying cathode loadings. It has to maintain uniformity and be defect-free. The typecasting process can increase the energy density that could cause processing by reducing our specific resistance. Sulfide due to the sensitivity of the material and to avoid hydrogen sulfate gas formation required additional investment in clean dry room environments. While the associated carbon footprint, labor, energy, intensity and water consumption will result in higher costs. Sulfide gas formation, considering the various layer composite and the mechanical staking process, B-Polar offers better packaging utilization than parallel configuration, but this also entails more handling steps as a result of higher costs. Complex Complex Complex Complex EV application. This helps decrease the cycle time of each cell and reduce the investment in machines as well as the cost of relevant plant footprint, labor, machine, maintenance and overheats.

19:05Concurrently, considerations of a few other production technology dimensions and associated advantages are not only applicable in solid-state batteries but also to exist lithium-ion. Batteries, for example, addition at additive manufacturing through 3D printing offers one potential avenue for exploration of scalability and be achieved. Further, sustainability conserves again significant attention from a wide range of stakeholders and are becoming a non-negotiable criterion for the procurement organization of automakers. As a result, battery makers must proactively factor the usage of renewable energy inputs and non-potable water in their manufacturing operation. On the other hand, circular economy and sustainability principles require the research and product development functions for factor in eco-friendly cells design which provision for use, replace and recyclability. Advantage data analytics integration right from early development phase will allow to reduce scrap and detect failures earlier in the manufacturing process. There are many challenges to be overcome in scalability of solid-state battery that requires dedicated efforts and investment over time in research and develop. Technology leaders in the solid-state battery space are now moving to step up pilot plans to simulate the degree of scalability as well as to start creating standards. This provides to be dynamically evolving space that needs to be followed closely.

20:58The path ahead. Last sentence, last words from the white paper. EV application at scale will require solid-state battery to deliver some key attributes. They will need to achieve operating temperatures at least a range of minus 10 to 60 degrees. The stack pressure between 0.6 MPa and 1.4 MPa should also be feasible target for the performance of solid-state battery, since higher pressure would be unrealistic for EVs. From today's standpoint, it is realistic to expect to push solid-state battery cells even the pressure consideration. The target volumetric energy density must reach 900 to 1000 Wh, which would translate to the application of lithium-methyl anus and the solid-state thickness 20 micras and the cathode loading more than 4 m and the power of the square centimeters. Another free solid-state battery would be especially suitable to such case since they offer an increase of volumetric energy density up onto 1200 watts per liter and are cheaper since handling of lithium is mitigated. By passing the need for battery models, by developing cells to pack or even cells to chassis, concept would also add in improving the energy density and reducing cost.

22:52Further, faster charging is the receiver and EV application target of 15 minutes, which required at 1 to C rate operation of solid-state battery with minimal cell degradation. But last but not least, the development and commercialization of solid-state battery not only leads to advance in product process and production dimension, but also the growth of entry value chain with the participation of players from the wide ecosystem. From an upstream perspective, this includes integration of materials supplier, miners and chemical firms engaged in processing and supplying active materials to the battery manufacturing. This should also encompass downstream layers, including firms engaged in battery reuse and recycling sectors. While there are few extent studies from removal of the liquid electrolyte, it should also make an insolid-state battery easier to deconstruction to separate the material approach. From now, I only speak about the news from Quantuscape. In the latest news, the financial banking is very strong. We know that Bill Gates and Postbank and Contechnical are some of the investors who are betting on this American startup.

24:32In the last year, the Jack Dean, the CEO of the company, has recently confirmed that they will go public during the last quarter of the year with an initial valuation of $4.3 billion, which would place Quantuscape at the first US battery manufacturer to carry out this operation during the last 10 years in a full conciliation of the electric car. As we know, the info from Quantuscape is that energy density would be higher than lithium-ion batteries at close to 500 watts-hour kilogram. That is the info from Quantuscape. And also that the energy density will increase in 50%. The battery charging also, they say that in 50 minutes we will have, and completely for 80% of the total charge. There will be a longer service life by eliminating the capacity of loss of anodegradation. And also, they will be, as we mentioned in the white papers, they will be safer from the lithium batteries because separators' elements cannot be in it. And according to Quantuscape, the production will be cheaper and will have lesser impact of final price of electric vehicles.

26:05Also, a news from the San Diego News, the University of San Diego, the engineers create a new type of battery that waves to promising battery subfields into a single battery. The battery uses both a solid-state electrode and all-silicon anode, making it a silicon all-state battery. The initial rounds of tests show that the new battery is safe, long-lasting, and energy-dense. It holds promise for a wide range of applications from grid storage to electric vehicles. Silicon anodes are famous for their energy density, which is ten times greater than the graphite anodes, most often used in today's commercialization of siliceum ion batteries. The points from it is, with the battery configuration, we are opening the new territory for solid-state battery using a low anode such as silicon. The last sentence from this information is, the next generation solid-state battery with higher energy density have always released on metallic lithium as anode, but that place a restriction on battery charge rates and the need for elevated temperature. During charging, the silicon anode overcomes these limitations, allowing much faster charge rates at room temperatures to low temperatures while maintaining high energy density.

27:57The team demonstrates a laboratory-scale full cell that delivers 500 charge and discharge cycles with 80% capacity retention at room temperature, which represents exciting progress for both the silicon anode and solid-state battery communities. Okay, that's the two, from my side, very interesting news from the last news from solid-state batteries. My personal opinion is on the white paper also, but my personal opinion is that we, of course, we need, first of all, to have this type of prototype, and to say the scalability. Labor have proof that that's the point, the critical point, let's say the labor has proof, but the scalability is one of the very huge needs. I hope that some of the enterprises that are doing the work with a lot of investment from Volkswagen and other big companies, and I hope that they're doing next year's pilot plant, and we need to see also the last new from Toyota. That's the car that we saw last week, from solid-state battery. From my side, I think it's also labor, let's say solid-state battery, but the way that they show and the lack of transparency, to me, to me, it is like there are more than five years ahead to have scalability for the manufacturing side.

30:01But the numbers are there, the Faraday Institution and other big institutions give us that the promise of scalability is there, and there are a lot of investment. I am, of course, positive, and I like all. I think it's a huge progress for the battery field, and maybe the breakthrough for having more scalability and exponential use of EVs. Thank you, Catherine. Well, thanks so much, Mariano, for the summary of the white paper and also sharing some news. I've got a lot of questions, obviously, but Basim has been waiting for a while. It would be great to have him on stage to share with us what does he think about the topic. Hi, yes, thank you. I was working with this battery 50 myself. I think I have a couple of questions. The first question is related to dendrites. When you mentioned that, because I read about this before, but I don't know if you have this exact info regarding like when the dendrites, because the dendrites will form anyway, right?

31:24So now if we go to lithium metal, it will form even more. What will happen then? Will it not be able to penetrate the solid electrolyte or and then can it cause something else? Like not short circuit. So can it cause something that after some time will lead to a short circuit or maybe some leakage or something? That's number one. That's the first question. And should I continue all of them or how do you prefer? How do you prefer? Okay. And then for the second point is the when we talk about safety as well, are we talking that now we will have reduced short circuits due to internal failures or reduced short circuits in general due to also external stimuli like mechanical and electrical as well. Is this also or not? The third point is related to specifically silicon based anodes. Per my understanding, one of the biggest problem of the silicon based anodes is that they expand and they contract a lot. How this is being solved with solid electrolytes.

32:42I don't get that part. I will stop until here and then I can take something else later. Thank you. Thank you, Bassem. Yeah. Nice question. I don't have all the answer. That's for sure. But I know some of the topics that you speak about the formation of dendrites, also the safety internal and external and the silicon based anodes. Okay. According to the white paper that we, with Pucha and Sinath and myself, I can say that from the dendrites formation, the use of anode free would be, let's say, surpass one of the problems that have actual anode, lithium anode. No. If I can, I am looking to the white papers. Okay. But because there are some of the information that you asked. Okay. Okay. The thing is that, the dendrites is coming from the, but in English for me it's not that easy, no? Okay. It's coming from the formation of the actual electrolyte. They are coming from this formation that there are, let's see. Moment.

34:21Okay. Okay. Yeah. And then right. It's coming from the, the, the layer that don't, eh. Okay. I, I, I, I passed the, the next question and I, I, I need to think about this, eh, dendrites, eh, how it's, it's better, eh, for, with the anode free. I can tell you that, eh, the anode free in the white paper state that, eh, the lithium in the anode sole comes from the lithium in the cathode. No, that. Because it's been my understanding is the accumulation of metal. Yes. So, and you are now going for lithium metal, which should theoretically, it means that you will have, and that's one of the reasons, as you know, that we don't go for lithium metal now is that formation of dendrites. So, now we are going to say, yes, we will go, yes, there is dendrites, but there is like a magical solution. So, and I'm just worried about what is the long term effects of this dendrites. Not only a direct short circuit, but can it cause some aging effects?

35:45Can it cause some problem with the leakage, like soft vents or something? Okay. The, if we go to the silicon anodes, eh, that's one of the, the question also you, the, the anode free also in, in lithium metal anodes are being, eh, researched in solid-state battery. Eh, silicon anodes, eh, or for the alternative. It, it, is relatively abundant and, eh, the silicon have a theoretical capacity compared to lithium metal, but less lithium, then, eh, lithium dendrites is, eh, issue, which means energy density requires, can be fulfilled, and dendrites, and dendrites, in, use short circuit could be avoided. The thing is that with the silicon anodes, eh, as you also mentioned, that, eh, would be easy to have not, eh, that much, eh, problems with the dendrites, eh, and the, in this short circuit, eh, in the, with the, with the, with the silicon, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the, with the silicon, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, with the silicon anodes, eh, Yes, exactly.

37:30Yeah, 300. Three times, it could be three times expand. Yeah, the thing is that it's one of the challenges. Maybe I don't speak that much with the challenge, but with the silicon, they need to... One is the challenge from the silicon, this expansion, this volumetric expansion from the anodes. But on the other hand, all the dendrites, it's avoiding the possibility of dendrites. And, okay, Bassem, I need to think and to speak in this time, in a couple of minutes, and I can tell you more about why the dendrites it's avoiding, because the dendrites is always there, you are right, and you say, okay, but why is solid-state battery better than the leaked electrolytes in the dendrites? For giving you a response, I need to think about it. Okay. Sure, sure. Thank you so much. Thank you. You're welcome. If there is more questions in the room, nice. Thanks for that. I would just like to pick up on the anode-free topic that we were on later.

38:56Could you please, Mariana, kind of elaborate more to the audience? What does it mean to have an anode-free battery? And what does that concept basically entails, you know, in terms of solid-state batteries? Okay. Anode-free. Anode-free is to have a layer instead of handling the layer to transform in the lithium metal during manufacturing. Okay. That's the need is that it needs to be very thin. That's one point. The anode-free concept has been gaining popularity recently. There is, because there is no need for lithium metal to form an anode. But nowadays, there are not large-scale manufacturing of lithium metal foils that would be needed for the commercialization of lithium anode, of solid-state battery. The lithium metal is highly reactive even in inner environments and requires handling in an air-sensitive environment. As a result, at this difficult-to-source pure lithium without trace of oxide, nitrates, etc., this means that there can be variation of the lithium metal between different spenders, and they consequently can have different mechanical properties. The thing is the quality of the lithium, if you have anode-free, the quality is higher, and there will be no other trace of other materials.

41:07And this makes it extremely attractive to remove the requirements of lithium metal foils. An anode-free solid-state battery, the lithium in the anode solely comes from the lithium in the cathode during charging. While charging, the lithium intercalates out of the cathode and plates on the opposite side of the cell and the copper current collector. The current collector are outside the two electrodes and electrochemical plates, lithium form in situ during charging on the current collector. The quality is more pure. The quality of the lithium plate, it's purer than the regular anode. That's the key point, Catherine. I see. Thank you so much for that summary at the end. That was really helpful. I see that Benny has joined us on stage. Hi, Benny. Do you have any questions or thoughts on the topic? Yeah, madam. I just wanted to ask Mr. Mariano that we had been using this electrical bikes last four years back. Of course, those were with lead-acid tubular batteries and now also many are there.

42:41But what we have found is even though the charge will be full, once you take it outside, you never know. Sometimes it will never get on and then you will have to bring it back and maybe after the batteries stay like that for a day, next day it gets on. So that is one problem with the lead-acid tubular batteries. Now with lithium-ion also, we are seeing some recalls happening, batteries getting fire and if the BMS doesn't work, the lithium will behave worse than lead-acid. So how do you foresee the future on this? Okay. Thank you for the question. Yeah, that's one of the points that not all the batteries have, but there are some chemistry that have more. It's the thing that you think that the chemistry, the ions come from nanos to cathodes and the charge stays, but it remains theoretical, but the reality is it doesn't and discharge quickly. Okay, you... My idea from the... I am not professional for lead-acid. Okay, that's not my professionality.

44:12But the thing is that, first of all, the quality of the battery and all the... It's involved in that because it depends on... Well, one... It depends on the quality of the battery and the inside materials that there are not trace and no... That is one of the points. The other point could be if they have in doing the... In the manufacturing, the process, all the formation and aging, all well done. And that is also a very important topic. One from my side is quality problems. The other is formation and aging if you have already done... Let's say how it needs to be done. And the other point, it could be also... Why is discharging so... With a short speed? Is that... Okay, from... If I think I was in the BatteryMBA and some of the lectures was very interesting about that, about the state of health and how you could measure, first of all, theoretically, with the practical state of health, there are all times that the last part, let's say the last 20% of the charge is...

46:00It's not... It's timely consuming. It needs more time because you need to surpass all the ions to fulfill and if they are... They have not that easy to come there. And... Let's say... From my side, it's... Maybe I resolve your question. Maybe if you can... Another time... Tell me the question. Maybe I can give you more ideas why it's said. Yeah, okay, thanks. Yeah. Sir, one more thing. I just wanted to ask you. We see that these batteries, while we connect to... Okay, of course, to rescue load, it gives the backup, but when it gets connected to motor loads, the backups drastically reduce. Is it because of that starting current that is being pulled and that does... Does that mean that battery will not be a solution for such loads? Penny, could you ask again because I don't understand 100% your question. Please. Yes, sir. I was asking what we have found that I am doing... For example, I am doing solar. So, what I find in houses where they use the motor loads, like maybe the gate motor, pressure pumps, like that, we find that the battery that is charged gets discharged very fast.

47:47So, basically, what I was asking is these batteries perform as per theoretical only when it is a resistive load. Otherwise, they discharge very fast. Yes. Okay, Penny, from my side, I think what you are mentioned is what... Let's say, the specs, so the specification of the batteries. If you have a gravimetric, high gravimetric energy density and also volumetric, then they would be not such a problem. They need to be not such a problem. Okay, if you... It depends on the chemistry of the batteries, no? lithium-ion, the gravimetric energy is more or less 250 and if we speak about solid-state battery, it's doubling, it's 450, 500 more or less the gravimetric energy. That's what our kilogram and in the volumetric, they say it's not that a huge difference between lithium-ion and solid-state battery, but I think maybe you don't speak... Or is the lithium-ion batteries that you have backup from solid-state Penny? No, sir. Presently, I use lead-acid tubular or Nikad batteries, not yet into lithium-ion because though it is available, these are from China presently and little worried because I understand if the BMS fails, then lithium-ion needs a management always to check the voltage and all that.

49:39So until a renowned product comes, I have not yet gone for lithium-ion. Okay, I understand. That's one of the points, but if I remember good, the gravity and volumetric is much lower from lead-acid to lithium-ion and that's one of the reasons and very important reason that they charge and discharge quickly, let's say. No? That's one. They don't have the energy to keep the energy there and they lose the energy very quick. But let's see that maybe you can try to buy also lithium-ion and check if there is a problem with your let's say complex with solar or it's only a chemistry change that you need to face. can I comment on that? Yes, of course. I think I have several points to Benny. I think the first point is that we need to look at two parts. The first part is that this is a new technology and there is a lot of push from different parts. every company is trying to race and getting the holy formula to make it the vehicle.

51:31I need the highest range and the fastest car. That pushes so much the technology to go into places where we are not sure what will happen there. I will not say that it's not unsafe but a lot of companies are pushing the limits beyond the specification that they should have pushed towards and a lot of things that we really don't know about like for example lithium plating that's one of the topics where there's a lot of research there it's not something that is written in stone a battery or a cell is something that you cannot measure you cannot measure state of charge you cannot measure state of health you estimate ! a proper supplier for your cells when it comes to fires and incidents that you hear about you need also to look at that combustion engine vehicles they also burn but the fuss around burning electric vehicle is much higher and the third point is that when you look for example to now the last cases with the two manufacturers GM and Hyundai I mean the report is not released yet but it seems it's going in the direction of internal manufacturing issue due to that in the cell itself so it's not a BMS failure in that sense that's causing it directly at least when it comes to having energy storage I mean there is a lot of companies working within energy storage and they already put them into market for a couple of years now so it's not really a new technology but if one advice for you will be that when it comes to energy storage energy density is not really the most important because you don't care how heavy or how big is it you just care that it's safe and it's cheap so the direction where you choose which chemistry is it LFP is it NMC is it NCA is it solid-state is it sodium-ion whatever you choose you will need to focus on cost and safety so you will see a lot of companies for example going for LFP for energy storage so I think you need to focus on having a good battery with a good BMS from a good manufacturer and then I don't think you need to care so much about that it will burn because it's quite safe it's not as dangerous as people think as long as you do your engineering engineering and as Marianne said I think what you're describing now is I don't think it's lithium-ion which is finishing that fast I would doubt that's lithium-ion I would think it's maybe lead acid or something that you're using now yeah basically sorry I didn't hear your sentence I don't know if it's my problem in my communication connection yeah I couldn't I couldn't hear Benny as well Benny do you mind repeating yeah madam it's railing here range is a problem please carry on range is a problem please carry on thanks okay thank you Benny are there more questions about general solid-state battery how bathroom how did you think that there are also the scalability if how many years more or less which are the news from the from that we have from all the companies that are involving and improving how are your topics from this scalability and possibility of having for the EVs or for other not only EVs of course right thanks for that so to be honest I'm definitely not an expert or anything close to that for SSBs but I do have a few questions or thoughts on this basically we do see most of the companies right now who are looking at SSBs still predominantly at the early stage of development of the battery cells and I'm pretty sure if they were to be used in OEMs like GM etc they would have to go through a multitude of tests and evaluation and to qualify as a supplier probably years of evaluation on that front as well so I'm curious as to how you know that that will eventually play out whether we can actually meet a 2030 target that as mentioned at the start of this discussion and I'm also curious how OEMs would think about that given that you know obviously the NMC cells have been around for a very long period of time and they've been used a lot in current EVs and you know the companies are also investing heavily into these areas including LFPs etc I'm just curious as to when will we actually start to see the benefits of SSBs being used in EVs and also the costs to be as low as possible to be able to use in consumer vehicles so that's just some of my thoughts there I don't know if Basim has anything to add I think for me solid-state I think it's more or less what you mentioned in different words for me solid-state is more like when the talks and hype about graphene they mention a lot of things will happen just when this will take place everything will change and for me solid-state has been advertised especially by the media maybe not by the scientific community that it's the thing that will solve all our problems and I have been waiting for it myself when I look to companies they normally promise 2025 I'm still doubting that especially with the direction of opening a lot of battery manufacturing facilities all around focusing still on not solid-state but on NMC and NCA etc so I'm still waiting to see how it will come especially from cost manufacturing cost and industrialization of such a very important not invention but a very important step cost cost cost cost !

59:15cost cost going in that direction anyway. Maybe it will be more useful, for example, for trucks and similar, or maybe long haul trucks and also buses, long haul buses. That can be really important because still there we have a big gap. But for personal vehicles, I don't know, I don't feel now with all the news around us that we really need this extra energy right now. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. Bassem, I am with you with the topic that if we achieve solid-state battery scalability, we would see that one of the key points is the weight, almost in EVs and in other, of course, air and some of the... And we would see that the battery, it's almost... Nowadays it's 500 kilos. It depends, of course, on the EV battery, no? But almost the size, it would need to reduce because one kilo, if you go with a truck or with an EV, a car, it's a lot to moving, no? And I say it would be...

1:01:03Hopefully it comes and it comes with the density and all what in labor that we have. And not only labor, there are more topics. As you mentioned, there are lots of years that are doing this in investment. But I think this last year, it's becoming, from my side, more and more, they say, close to the final, to find, let's say, the best two or three chemistries and to say, OK, from my side, I think it's important to have, let's say, an example, no? To what are the best of the possibility with the electrodes and electrolytes and going further of this possibility. Of course, there are challenges in every part of the chemistry possibility, but it needs to be mitigated and to be, let's say, looking into one or two. But, yeah, I think the weight is very important and also safer and other things. But I think the future comes with a weight less than today, much, much less. And that's a good point for, in general, for all the, let's say, all the batteries filled.

1:02:39Thank you. Yeah, Mariana, sir, one more thing, what we are seeing is, we thought of bringing down global warming with electric vehicles, but now we see power outrage in most of Western countries. And so that means fossil fuels have to burn more for the electric vehicles to move around. Yeah, many, that's a huge topic, of course, that it not came only with a solid-state battery, it came with all types of related. Okay, that if you have a manufacturing and all the sustainability of the batteries, that is a topic that you need to cover. And the thing is that you need to think about, if we see the new EU regulation, it comes with, nowadays, with this mindset with sustainability and data, data needs for all the supply chain. And because it's the only way that you can have a real sustainability, you have the data of the battery life and for a second life or for the recycling. And if you are thinking about in the manufacturing, if the use of water, the use of energy, the consume of both and the waste that are coming, of course, the need is there.

1:04:26If we give an example from the manufacturing, Tesla manufacturing in the US and Tesla manufacturing in Berlin, there are some news that in Germany, you could not have so much water waste for the manufacturing. and they enforce now in this Berlin Tesla new manufacturers to reuse and to less and less coming from the water. That's the point. The manufacturers need to be done this work, thinking about recycling and remanufacturing. And that is one of the biggest topics to help the sustainability and to the global warm climate change. It's coming. But from my side, the fossil fuels needs to be, let's say, down because it generates a lot of emission. And in the huge cities, it generates almost 50% of the emission, the mobility side. And it needs to go down, of course. And the electric mobility is one side, but on the other side, there needs to be better requirements and regulation for having and sustainability in the battery field. I think this EU regulation is one of the topics and it needs to be enforced to the other countries, not only in one country.

1:06:07That's my idea. Thank you. Can I add here? Yes, please. Sure. So I think if you, there's some YouTube channel famous in talking about electric vehicles called Fully Charged. and there, they had a video which is, they said that you can reuse it, but they need to take their permission. Anyway, this video is talking about a very different aspect, which is how much waste and how much pollution do you create by just the extraction of oil? So we need to be very, very careful because the way that anti-electric vehicle community pushes on is this kind of topic. So if you look to, for example, they will look at manufacturing of electric vehicle and the amount of pollution over the lifetime. it's the same as if they will tell you that electric vehicle is so expensive. Yeah, but there's something called TCO, which is total cost of ownership you need to look at as well, but they will not tell you that, you know. So I think it's very important when you look at electric vehicle.

1:07:19Yes, it's very good to have an electric vehicle which is being charged by clean energy. I totally agree, but even an electric vehicle being charged from a not very renewable source like by burning natural gas or whatever, it's even still cleaner than a combustion engine vehicle. And you still don't have the emissions inside the city, near to schools, near to the kids and etc. So I think this is just, when we look at these kind of topics we need to be very, very careful about how, which kind of like news is being spread and in which way. So just to be careful there. So you can find a lot of research proving that an electric vehicle, even the manufacturing of batteries, is still not as clean as we would like it to be. And still, it's much better than combustion engine over the lifetime. That's from pollution of production, etc. over the lifetime. And it's cleaner even with the emission when it comes to inside the city.

1:08:24And there's a lot of research about this specific topic. And also that's plus what Mariano said about second life recycling. But we will not talk about this topic. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Okay. From my side, the solid-state battery, also, they are improving. And the thing is that we have nowadays several options. And if we see of, if we have to look at these options, as I mentioned, we think about the inorganic would be, let's say, the easy way to look at it. There are several companies that are going with this sulfide and oxide solid-eliterate. the other way that in the white paper also said, but we don't go deeper, is this, let's say, going with hybrid solution. This is also a possibility because this hybrid solution, it's mixed with polymer and the electrodes, no, the electrolyte, not, solid-eliterate with inorganic. This, it's also, as you mentioned, Bassem, I think it would suppressing the dendrites formation more than actual oxide and sulfide, but this is a trend because all the information in the labor, this have interfacial stability, they have like a matrix, a polymer matrix, that impedes the performance of the cell, no?

1:10:43That's, it's also a kind, but there are investigating in this solution, it could be for, if there is a problem, let's say a problem, if there is an indescalability like a non-go, the hybrid solution could be one of the solutions because this, the polymer gives this non, non, you could, you could, with the hybrid solution, you could use more process from the actual lithium-ion batteries manufacturing, and that is one of the, also, other important topic that, what, if we have, in, before 2025 or before 2030, we have manufacturing sites all over the world, and all manufacturing sites could be lithium-ion, to change the manufacturing sites, it's also interesting to say more, if you change to the battery, that the change is not coming with a huge impact in the investment, that you could, and this hybrid solution could be also a solution, but there are, of course, challenges to be done. Well, thanks so much for that, Mariano. Yes, Basim, sorry, do you have a point to add on this?

1:12:25No, no, no, thank you. Yeah, I was just going to ask if that addressed your question, if you have any thoughts to that, please feel free to add on to the topic. Just looking at time, we have about 15 minutes left. Does anyone else in the audience have any thoughts, questions on this topic, please feel free to raise your hand right now. And if you haven't already done so, feel free to check out the link of the solar state batteries white paper that we have been referring to. And I believe you can find the link by clicking onto the, actually, that's not here. If you like the link, just feel free to drop me a message and I will send the link to you so everyone can download the link to the white paper to have a read on that if you're interested. Yeah, so feel free to drop me a message on Clubhouse if you'd like to have a copy of that. Yeah, if you have any questions, feel free to also raise your hand now.

1:13:37And as some of you may have seen that I've also created a room for next week where Basim will be sharing on battery safety. So I'm very excited for that as well. I think that will be a great continuation to this topic given that we've talked about battery safety and how solid states would be applied to EVs going forward and a concern from battery safety aspects. So that would be a good continuation to the topic. So feel free to be interested to join us next week. I think we have a great discussion there too. Oh, Basim. Nice. I would be, I would share the next week a nice topic, a very, very important topic of battery safety. Yeah, now I'm a bit worried that with solid-state I will be jobless. No, but also maybe we can add a bit flavor of security as well with the batteries because we can have certain hacks which can really have bad consequences also if you replace an authentic battery with a non-authentic battery in a vehicle.

1:14:58You can steal it and replace it, etc. So I think that's, but maybe not for next week we can discuss it but that's also a half of my job currently. Nice. One point I wanted to add more with the differentiation about the lithium round is that, and it's an important topic for the manufacturing costs, it's that the filling and formation formation, it costs a lot because it's time consuming, it's energy, of course it's energy consuming, consuming, of course it's energy consuming, and this is one of the topics that with solid-state battery, you know, the thing is there that it's a big difference between the solid-state battery and lithium-ion. that's one of the topics I wanted to mention, and of course there are, theoretically, if you go with a white paper, you could see this manufacturing process flow comparison, and theoretically it needs to be, let's say, costly, if we have all the challenges resolved, of course, if we solve all the challenges that have the battery, one of the, there are several, not just that we speak before, I think from manufacturing side, costly, it needs to be down than actual lithium-ion, but scalability, scalability, is the topic, and of course, the challenge that they offer, and of course, the last thing is the material that they need.

1:17:08There are some materials that are very, very costly, and the thing is to avoid or to reduce this high-cost material in the solid-state battery, and if this goes in a pack, if you don't use high-cost battery or material, or you reduce the need of that, and you have the scalability, there are very, very huge cost manufacturing that with the solid-state battery you don't need. And also, very important, the topic that with solid-state battery, theoretical, could be easy to remanufacture and to reuse. That's an important topic. Thank you for my side. Thank you for that. I think that's very interesting, the last point you mentioned about recycling and reusing of solid-state batteries. I think I would love to learn more about it. I've not read anything on that topic before. That's something that I would probably, if anyone has any thoughts or ideas to that, I would really love to learn more about this. So we've got 10 minutes left. If you have any questions, feel free to raise your hand and we can let you up on stage.

1:18:45Once again, if you're new to the club, just feel free to tap on the battery evolution icon at the top that you see here. And you can just follow the club for all the future updates, including the next session that we have with Basim. It'll be very exciting. Of course, if no one else has anything to add or thoughts to this, we can always end the session early and let everyone have a good Saturday morning, evening, afternoon, wherever you are. So I'm just going to give everyone a minute or so for you to join us on stage if you have any thoughts. And if not, we can close off the session. Okay, Catherine, maybe I can end from my side with the pros and cons from these two types of inorganics that we mentioned in the white paper, because like a wrap-up from both the solute elituride, we would speak about sulfides. The pros are the high ionic conductivity, the suitable for manufacturing by mixing with catharsis particles, that are the huge pros, and the cons are the low chemical stability, less able to suppress dendrites, low electrochemical stability, discomposed into resistive layers, the big cons that we mentioned in the white papers, and in the oxides, the pros could be, well, are mostly stable in air, not toxic gas released, lithium methyl and chemical stability, increase availability to suppress dendrites, and cons are brightly in nature, less suitable for manufacturing, aerosol deposition needs to be improved, because nowadays it's two times ahead, two.

1:21:10High temperature required for sintering costly, that is very costly for manufacturing, that's the both in the inorganic solid electrolyte, and in general, the volumetric is from the battery, generally it's surpassed from 900 to 1000, the volumetric, nowadays the lithium-ion, it's 700 more or less, that the fast, hopefully that the fast charging as we mentioned earlier, it's for 80 to 50 minutes, and one of the things that is very neat, the solid electrode needs to be very thin, there are several information about that, 50 microns, minus 20, that needs to be improved, and that is one of the challenges for the solid-state battery, battery, and yeah, from my side, Catherine, thank you for giving me this possibility to speak about the white purple solid-state battery, and hopefully we are looking at battery regulation, and with this very interesting next topic about safety, it's a very, very important topic in the battery field, and thank you for the possibility, Catherine. Well, thank you so much, Mariano, it's a really great pleasure to hear from one of the writers and authors of the white paper, first-hand, on everything that there is to know about solid-state, so really thank you for that, and I'm sure the audience is really appreciative of the comments, if they could applause, I'm pretty sure they'll see a lot of mics fluttering now, and also a big thank you to the audience for staying with us, and please feel free to tune in if you're available next week at the same time for the topic on battery safety.

1:23:24Thank you so much, everyone, have a great weekend ahead. Bye-bye. Bye, Catherine, bye all, bye. Bye, Marianne. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.