Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Battery Safety

0:00Transcript

0:00Great. So, hi everyone. Thanks for joining us back on the 38th session of Factory Evolution. Great to see everyone back here and see some familiar faces joining us as well. So, as everyone knows, these sessions are recorded and they last for an hour 30 minutes. So, we will end at 10.30 p.m. Singapore time and wherever you are at 4.30 p.m. CET. So we really do encourage everyone to join us on stage as early as possible. This is an exciting topic today about battery safety. It's really wide. So, we really encourage everyone to join us to just talk about, you know, whatever you think about battery safety, whether you're working in this space, if you're dealing with battery packs, if you're dealing with cell safety, anything at all, dealing with thermal management systems, feel free to just join us, hop on stage and let us know what you think. So, this would be a really interactive session. And today we're supposed to have Basim Farag. He's working on battery safety at Bobo. He should be joining us any minute now. So, just waiting for him to sign on to Clubhouse. So, as always, if you are new to Clubhouse, you will see some people with party hats below. And so, that means you're new to Clubhouse and probably new to the club as well. Just a quick recap of how this club started. Salman and myself actually met on Clubhouse. So, we have not met in person with the whole pandemic going on still. So, we started this about 38 weeks ago and going strong, loving the group and the discussions that we have here. And so, these sessions are also recorded and available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, after it's ended. So, feel free to check our previous sessions.

2:08We will talk about battery recycling, supply chain, cycle life, EVs, etc. Feel free to check those out. So, if you have any topics or if you would like to be a first speaker one day, just to participate in this club, feel free to join in and feel free to drop myself or Simon a message here on Clubhouse or reach out to us on LinkedIn. And as some of you may see, if you're a member of this club, you may see a second session coming up next week with Christian Root. We'll be talking about a very technical topic, but sounds very exciting, a production of Anodes and Christian Root is the co-founder and CEO of Lidenjaw Technologies. Feel free to check that out on LinkedIn as well. But that's been, it will be an exciting and technical topic next week, which would be, you know, a great continuation of what we had last week about solid-state batteries. So, really looking forward to that as well.

3:10Yeah, before I start rambling on non-stop, maybe I'll pass on to Simon as well to add. Simon, your thoughts on this. Simon Root Thanks, Cass. And I can just echo and also, what you said about it as exciting how we met 38 weeks ago or 38 weeks ago here on Clubhouse. And also thinking back with lots of joy to battery day about two weeks ago, we both have been co-moderating the first half of it. And it was really a lot of fun talking there also about the past year and batteries. And here we have people like in the audience has been working on this as well, Mariana, of course. And of course, he comes as well, who also has been part of the battery day. So this was a really nice event. And I just watched through lots of the recordings of the entire day again, just to get a bit of a feel again from the viewing angle. And yeah, I think it was a really, really great event. That's the same, what we heard from lots of people participating.

4:05And yeah, it's just maybe one quick thing also, because I'm not sure you spoke about it last time. It seems like there's now a clipping function here on this app. I'm not sure if everyone has it. But at least I see it. I assume others see it as well. So that bottom, you have this kind of a little scissor there. And if you wish, you can apparently clip 30 seconds clip or so, and then share it on social media or download it. And yeah, I guess keep a collection of your favorite 30 seconds of these sessions. But yeah, maybe that's maybe it's a useful feature if you want to share some insights or so, you know, if something you find useful from these sessions for free to share them on Twitter, LinkedIn, etc. Brilliant. Yeah. And maybe I don't know why we, I guess, wait for a scene and you know, happens that people mix up the times that's absolutely normal. We can also be invite some people up with anybody feels like, you know, sharing some thoughts. In the past, we have been lucky. I remember Milo's jumped in last time when we had another speaker delayed for half an hour. So I know it can work really well. So if anybody here in the audience maybe wants to come up, share any thoughts they have, maybe talk about some latest developments. I know Barrett and others are monitoring the new space quite closely. You might have seen a Northworld announcement of their, I think it was a $760 million or so investment and planned investment into like some local R&D facility and training, etc. in close to Stockholm and Sweden. So maybe some people are excited about that or any other news, you know, people want to talk about or any insights they've gathered in the last, more recently. So just some meditation or maybe one ask, I'm not sure if anybody here would be that crazy, but I know today there is the, there's a gigafest. So there's like a little small fair or tiny festival in a way in Giga, Berlin Brandenburg. So the new Tesla factory they're building next to Berlin and they actually have a celebration there today. I watched some videos on Twitter, et cetera, some, some, some fun activities that were there.

6:10Nilo Musk is coming apparently as well. And unfortunately I wasn't invited. I think lots of people unfortunately were grand, but yeah, if anybody has any thoughts on that one, um, feel free to share that as well. Maybe a bit of an inside scoop. Nilo Musk is coming up with a group. Um, but I guess everyone will be busy when they're there, um, to, to participate, but yeah, just as an invitation as well. Nilo Musk, Ph.D.: Right. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks so much, Simon, for that. So maybe just before, um, people stop joining us on stage, um, a quick housekeeping, um, a message. So if you're on stage and, um, if you're not speaking, we'd be grateful if you could mute your mic. Nilo Musk, Ph.D.: And if you wish to applaud to anything that someone said, just flutter your mic. Nilo Musk, Ph.D.: So, Nilo Musk, Ph.D.: And if you'd like to, um, add a point to something or if you have something to say, just, um, tap your mic twice. So, uh, like this. So, so we'll be able to know that, uh, you know, you're a point to make and we will moderate the session and go in the order that we see here, um, on stage. But yeah, um, as Simon said, if you have anything interesting to share about news, or about, uh, about anything at all, or about the topic about battery safety, if you're working in this space, just feel free to, um, join us up here and, uh, share some of your thoughts on this while we were for Basin to, to join us.

7:35Basin Schmack, Ph.D.: And don't be shy. It's a, it's a friendly stage. Um, if you have been following us for a while, you know, and we know any thought is welcome and, um, yeah, you know, just otherwise it's going to be a bit of a more silent time while we wait potentially. Um, so yeah, you invited some people on stage. So if any of you wants to come up and share any thoughts they have, um, on this topic or something else, you're free to join us. Basin Schmack, Ph.D.: Oh, Mark, thanks for joining. Mark B.: Hey, I'm just going to share some thoughts about some things that happened last week. So, uh, actually, my cycle had a battery day and of course I'm very connected to battery cycling and, uh, it was a interesting fashion. I didn't find it very informational. It was sort of more of a marketing event. So, um, I was just going to share that information. Uh, Koch, I think has invested, invested in Lifecycle because of the invested in. And I also listened to a, uh, a, um, a mining webinar. I think it's mining one-to-one webinar and they, uh, they had a more, um, because it's mostly finance people, they had a more sort of, um, how do you say, um, nuanced view on battery cycle at the moment, meaning it's not very economic, uh, with the current situation in North America and so different, maybe Europe perhaps, but, uh, the scrap is definitely recyclable in terms, but in terms of demonstrating a commercial EV recycling, uh, there wasn't, there was a much more nuanced sort of view of that at the specific moment. Of course, things will change in the future. And of course, battery scrap could be economic recycling at the moment.

9:35So that's my thoughts for the week. Well then, thanks so much for that, Mark. Um, that's how Miles thinks. Yes, Miles, thanks for joining us on stage. I will join you a little bit later because I'm in the car. So, five minutes. Sure, Miles. Yeah, thanks for that. What about Baris? Hi, Baris. Yeah, hi there. Hope you're all doing great. So, uh, actually we successfully compiled a lot of information regarding the gigafactory announcements. I think you can see those things in our newsletter for the September month. Uh, as we discussed in the battery day, many experts told that, uh, many, uh, gigafactories are going to come, not, not very small numbers, even very big players like Ford is going to establish their gigafactories in USA. And, uh, even Vietnam is starting its own factories. Uh, and also the factories are kicking started, you know, many, many, many things are MOUs, but right now the construction is happening in Indonesia. I think this battery revolution is just spreading globally. Initially it was constrained in America and then it moves to Europe. Right now it moves to South Asia. Like it was very dominant in China in the early days, but right now all other South Asian players are also, uh, coming together. And as per Milo, Milo's always say, these are all just gigafactories.

11:05If they don't have raw material, they are just, just buildings. Exactly. Many governments are creating very good strategies and policies to attract investment inside their borders. For example, in Indonesia, the Indonesia government has given a partial restriction in exporting lithium, lithium ore. So many companies are interested to start company inside Indonesia. So they are attracting the investors by putting some kind of restriction. I don't know whether it is, it is constructive or not, but the government is taking some strategic plans as well. Even India, many companies are starting, started investing in lithium tech and things like that are going very well. That's my understanding for the previous month. Thanks so much for that, Bharath. That's a very interesting point. And I think that echoes with some of the news I've been reading recently about, you know, the battery packs of suppliers like CATL, investing in mines, lithium mines as well. So, so it's interesting to see the supply chain integrating that way as well. We can probably pick up on that later. Let's move on to Animesh.

12:22Great to have you back. Animesh, hey Catherine, it's been a while. Hey Simon. So, I mean, so what I was like to trying to like mention is not really breaking news, but like we saw a fair bit of investment going to AMBRI recently, especially like even from, you know, India and these guys are working on, to my understanding, very long-term energy storage. So, I was wondering if anyone has any insights about that or, you know, where they are in terms of that commercialization or, you know, how far or how, what, what their opinions are on the feasibility of the tech itself. Can you come up with the company, AmBRI? AmBRI, but that's the typical molten metal batteries. It's for longer term, very, very long term, like energy storage. Not, not, it's not lithium. Oh, great. Yeah, they had like investments from Reliance in India, which is, which, to those who don't know, it's one of South Asia's biggest conglomerates, who are very heavily into energy storage, grid level storage right now.

13:30Or any general thoughts about longer term energy storage? It could be any company, it doesn't have to be AMBRI. I've not heard about AMBRI, to be honest, and imagine just reading up on what they do. And it looks like they have some sort of liquid metal battery. Yep, seems so. So, apparently it lasts for 25 years or something, that being the goal, you know, that is why they're targeting grid applications. So, of course, it's very, very different from the rest of the world, the applications are going, but it is very curious because they have a lot of investment. Yeah, that's true. Even in Australia also, many of them are funding inside this flow battery. I'm not sure about the mechanism, what the flow battery, how the flow battery works. But we are all, we also took a lot of information regarding that. But generally, as far, Anish, you know, like you're asking about the long term storage facility and long term storage plan. India has a very good idea and policy.

14:39You can see that the government, central government, I don't know which ministry, the ministry formulated a policy that a lot of gigawatts of, not gigawatts, megawatts of a plant will be settled in Gujarat or in some other states as well. For sure, this renewable shift is going to happen in India. This battery will be the back end of the renewable shift. But I don't know how they are going to start manufacturing in India right now. Only very small startups, you know, log nine materials from Bangalore. They only have some kind of facility, but it is not that much very big facility. Only small companies are doing it, not in a very large scale. We want to see how this corporates are going to use the technology and build the factory and then manufacture batteries on a large scale. Great. Thanks so much for that, Bharat and Nimesh. And yeah, thanks for joining us. I invited you because of the energy storage angle. So I was wondering if you could give some of your thoughts to that as well.

15:50Yeah, thank you, Catherine. Hi, nice to meet you, everyone. Okay, so yeah, for the lithium-ion battery, I think if we compare the wave flow, the vanadium flow battery with lithium-ion battery, there'll be a big difference in terms of energy density and the sea rate. Vanadium flow battery can work with quite a small sea rate, but in a longer lifetime with more reliability and higher safety compared to lithium-ion battery. But it will provide less energy density in other ways. So it depends on the application as a situation. No matter which country, they have different strategies regarding to the energy sectors. So I think that's going to affect the market share of different types of energy storage battery in the industry. Yeah, thanks so much for that. Yeah, different types of batteries and their sea rates and the longevity of these batteries definitely have an impact on the selection for choosing for grid energy storage system because we need them to last at least 15 years or more so that it can be bankable, the insurance companies can back them up, etc.

17:19Those are these things. So yeah, that's an interesting point that you have mentioned about different types of batteries. I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts to that as well, particularly with regards to grid register systems or anything else, any other applications for the matter. One more thing I just want to add regarding this point, because in the newsletter of Battery Associates, we have also mentioned this particular news. Many companies are coming with many chemistries, but it depends on the sea rates, depends on the various parameters. Certain cell will be commercially viable in certain applications. For example, CATL's new sodium-ion will be very much applicable in the energy storage application. It will definitely reduce the cost of energy storage very much higher than the lithium-ion cost storage, whereas the lithium-ion can be applied in electrical vehicles, where the LFP cells can be used in locomotive applications. For example, small two-wheelers, which is used inside a town for delivery, which is low performance.

18:37Like that, each and every cell has some performance character through which these people are using the cells in different, different ways. According to me, I think many companies have different perspectives. Lithium will be used in EVs, and then LFP will be used in low performance EVs, and sodium-ion and lithium mix will be used in this energy storage systems. If you know this, how far off is the energy density of, I would say, sodium-ion? Because the value inherently seems to be there. Okay, fine. On the spectrum of high energy density versus cost, right? On one end, we have an NMC with a slightly fancier anode material, while on the other end, we talk currently about sodium. So on that spectrum, what is the energy density? Like 100 kilowatt hour per kg? Like 150? Do we, like, are those numbers available? Yeah, actually, I don't have the exact point, but which is very similar, which is very near to this LFP cells. I think if you can go and see the CATL's press release, they have released this very interesting spider chart.

19:52Most of the performance of the sodium cell, which is very equal to the LFP cell. So I think the sodium will be useful in the energy storage application, but still new chemistries will come. We want to see how this thing is taking forward. It purely depends on the market adaptability, but people are very positive about it. I just wanted to pick up on the topic of, you know, connecting that to battery safety. And there are so many different types of battery chemistry that we've talked about earlier. So in myon, et cetera, LFP's. I'm just wondering, you know, everyone's thoughts to that as to how they compare in terms of battery safety. Drew, thanks for joining us. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. If you have a point to make on that as well, that'd be great. Okay. It's not Milo's. Hi, Milo's. Yeah. Oh, no. Can I just comment? Oh, sorry. Sorry. Yes. Yes, you are. No, I wasn't sure whether I was muted or not.

20:54Okay, right. So I actually have, so on the one hand, I have a question and this is related to battery safety. So we're working, so I'm working in a think tank in India and we're working on policies and trying to look beyond cycle life and energy density in terms of encouraging, you know, battery deployment, battery manufacturing, all of that. So what kind of policies do you see in terms of the useful policy instruments or tools to encourage batteries with better safety to, you know, come into the market to be researched from the beginning? Because the issue that I see in the market today is how much ever we talk about battery safety, the incentives are all for cycle life and energy density. That's where the incentives are. For example, even the US and its 10-year aim at bringing down long-term energy storage to something like $10 per kilowatt hour, something like that. So what kind of policy tools do you see? So we could just put up standards, for example, but is there something better?

22:05Is there some kind of way to structure a policy to incentivize safer battery manufacturing or safer battery deployment or even just safer tech development? Can we maybe fund projects that are aiming towards better battery safety? So yeah, that's just my question. If anyone has any thoughts, please do comment. If I may comment on that. So regarding standards, again, like again, you know, for different applications and different jurisdictions, there exist already very, very, I would say, stringent requirements. And the more typical argument against regulation is that, you know, if you deal with a tier one auto company or a consumer electronic company, a very strong dissensitive recalls. Like, you know, very recently we had Hyundai's recall. Before that we had some, I don't remember which company, but they had a massive recall as well because the battery is both catching fire or sometimes, you know, if it's a smartphone application, the phones itself catch fire, which kind of, you know, led to a lot of bad PR.

23:08The thing with safety, so I'm not, I'm going to ignore reliability now, focusing entirely on safety. So there are standards. And when you think about the production processes itself, if you look at another industry, they have Six Sigma, even something more aggressive requirements. So in their production processes, to make sure all their processes, you know, fall within the 99 point, you know, how many of our nines are quality standard to ensure that all the parts weren't assembled in a battery cell or then subsequently in a pack behave the way they can. In reality, however, most battery cell producers are very, very far from the sort of Six Sigma achievement, so to speak. You're not going to find many battery lines. While they try to achieve it, in reality, battery production, at least the current, I would say, wet slurry, coating, drying, winding, and filling processes very, very far from it. So of course, a lot of room remains in terms of, you know, battery production, process refinement to make that improvement.

24:08From a policy standard, again, I'm not an expert in policy, but what I do foresee is happening that as electric vehicles get adopted more and more, there will be increasingly legal precedence, there will be increasingly, increasing precedence set of how companies, which companies are liable, which kind of sets a very, I would say, de facto framework when it comes to dealing with battery safety, especially if there is, you know, subsequent consequence in terms of loss of life and property. Yeah, got it. I think what we need to look at is considering that there's so many technologies coming to market that we don't end up being stuck five to ten years away from any kind of policy change just because we're following the technologies and waiting for them to come to market to see how safe they are. So I think that's going to be the big question, how we're going to preempt these technologies and not just respond to them as they come. Yeah. Yeah.

25:05So, yeah, I think now it should be in the hands of the automakers, electrical vehicles makers because nobody will buy unsafe vehicle. So basically, they are perfecting the technology in order to be able to sell their electrical vehicles. So regulations, they are not, regulations like that, they are not creating creating the, they are not supporting innovation, they are killing innovation. So we should leave it in the hands of the, batteries safe now to be able to put it to electrical vehicles and battery could be safer and it will be safer like we will progress and innovation will progress. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. We miss you a lot right now. We have you back on the stage. So I do also have one comment on the battery. There is one article and article written and published by a very famous CEO. No batteries are, you know, safe. I think so exactly the right title or not. I will share the article maybe with you guys if you want, you please see me.

26:26So even if you take a worst battery, if you, if you maintain the battery in a very proper way, you can, you can safeguard the fire and things like that. So the battery safety is not only depends on the battery production because Duro and Anish is telling about Six Sigma and things like that. Yeah, you have people using the Six Sigma and all other kind of lean startup techniques and also very strict ISO techniques but still the battery safety parameters is not only constrained inside the production plant which also goes to automobile assemblers how this electronics is assembled, how this charging and discharging is happening, how the driver is driving the car. It's a very different, you know, very different ecosystem, right? So this, it's a very complex topic that is why people are very hard to put the blame which company should take care of it. So my personal suggestion is that if we maintain the battery properly with proper temperature, proper everything, definitely the battery safety is an achievable one.

27:34That's where this battery analytic companies are coming. In this battery day, previously two weeks before, we have an extremely nice panel of experts who are talking about how to improve the battery performance which is equally the safety of the battery through the power of analytics, how we can empower the battery safety have the battery safety through analytics. So it's a vast topic, guys. So I think a lot of improvements should come. Thanks for that, Barat. Yes, anyway. Yeah, so I would draw one analogy from battery recycling, right? So if you dial back five years, everyone published papers about how terrible the problem of battery recycling is going to be. Once we are 10 years from now, we have a bunch of electric vehicles, a lot of batteries, and we don't know what's going to happen to these batteries. However, now, especially what we saw in China, I think in 2019 or so, there was a regulation passed that clearly mandated which party in this overall value chain is going to be responsible for making sure that the batteries produced or a percentage of the battery produced ends up being recycled.

28:35In a way, creating the or identifying the relevant stakeholders who are responsible for making the circular economy circular. So what I think is that eventually if there is a policy, again, whether there should be a policy or not is a separate question, but if there is a policy, I think it's going to start with identification of the key stakeholders with whom the bug finally stops. So I think, you know, just echoing on what Melo said, it's most likely it's tending towards, you know, the final EV manufacturers who are eventually making the final finished product and sending. Eventually, if there's a fire or recall, there will be increasing liability on them, which will be mandated by regulations. But again, any sort of policy, depending on jurisdiction, for how much. Yes, like Barat said, the battery safety is not given only by battery cell. I don't know, I think the battery pack in the electrical vehicles especially, it's even more important for the safety than the battery cell.

29:38So it's a whole process of how you are building the battery, how you are using the battery, what kind of the car you are building with that. So it's very, very difficult if it's not impossible to regulate safety like that. So safety will be regulated by what kind of quality of the safety is one feature of the electrical vehicle, and electrical vehicles' safety will bring also battery safety to other sectors like consumer electronics or energy storage system. Animesh, I would like to answer the question about Umbri. I know Umbri very well. Umbri was founded by Professor Sadoway. He used to be active very much in the steel industry. So he has one invention in the steel industry. I was in the steel industry so I know him for many years, like 30 years. So his invention or his battery, Umbri, is a liquid metal battery and he's working on that already like for 10 years. It's still not commercialized. It's very close to commercialization. It's a unique battery.

30:56So I don't know. It obviously is not, it's designed to the, it's designed to the energy storage system, to the big batteries, to the grid batteries. The battery operates on the very high temperature. So the unit temperature at about 700 Celsius temperature. So that's the one feature of this battery which is negative but also in the same time positive. So it's totally different battery. It's liquid metal battery. I don't know if it will be successful or not. Thanks for that, everyone. Thanks for sharing. Yep. Thanks for that, everyone. So we just have Bustin joining us. Apparently there's something wrong with his phone. So very glad to have him now. Hey, sorry. I got, I was outside and my phone died. I was not able to do anything until I just came home. I didn't catch you where did we stop. So I didn't catch you where did we stop or what was the flow. I don't want to interrupt the flow. I can bring my thoughts maybe not to interrupt the flow.

32:07What do you think, Catherine, or what is the flow now? So we were kind of just talking about news to begin with and then trying to connect that with battery safety where we talked about different types of battery cells and how there are applications in the grid storage system and link that to battery safety. So now that we have you, it would be great to have some of your remarks about battery safety in general, whether from a cell perspective or from the PEC perspective, and maybe just to reset the room as well to align on the topic. That would be great. Yep. Okay, thank you for that. Okay, I can maybe introduce myself quite fast. My name is Bassem. I work, I studied in Sweden and masters in resistance and I have been working with batteries for the last six years and I've been working with safety for the last three years. I'm mainly focused on cyber and I'm doing my second masters in cyber security for automotive, but I am focused now on safety and cyber security, especially functional safety and cyber security of the packs.

33:21And I work now in Volvo cars in Gothenburg in Sweden. For safety, I think I will, for me, I think safety, I will break it down into two parts, active and passive. I think that's not my breakdown. I think a lot of people break it down like this. And I listened a little bit to the last points that Milos was making. And for me, I think cell, if we look about passive safety, for me, passive safety is everything is not related to an ECU taking some decisions based upon some information and control algorithm. And that includes, for example, if you have a safety valve or safety, how to call it, feuds in the cell. Some manufacturers already removed it. That was news for me like two or three weeks ago. And then you have the venting, et cetera. You have the thermal insulation between cell to cell, module to module, if you are doing a cell to module architecture. You have the thermal insulation maybe around the pack.

34:29And you have the fuse. That's one branch of safety for me. The second branch will look into functional safety. And here, the main focus will be that we prevent malfunctions in electric and electronic components. that may lead to a hazardous event. And this hazard, if it happens in a specific situation, will lead to a hazardous event. And in there, we will look into more of the control algorithms. And this starts from data collection and monitoring, and it comes to decision elements, the ECUs and the DCDCs, filtering, and all of that. And then the third part will be the actuation. What should you do with this information? And one also, a more remark is that as a battery pack, all what you can do really is two things. First, to ask politely for the consumers of the load, of you as a source. So your loads, you will ask them politely, can you please decrease the discharge or the charge power? Or you will open contactor.

35:38You don't really have much things in your hand more than that. So for example, if you have a heat pump, which is pushing hot fluid towards the pack, and then you open the contactor, this will not help you much. Because even with your contactors open, you are still heating up the cells. So this is for me, I think, the main two parts when I look to safety in a more general way for a battery pack. I don't know if there's any questions or any remarks or something. Great. Thanks so much for that, Basim. I'd just like to pick up on what you mentioned earlier about different aspects of battery pack safety. I was wondering, you know, at this selection, a huge part of that comes into sorting of the cells and selection of the cells as well. Something that you consider when you're building the battery pack. Sorry, I cut off before I finished my sentence. I was going to say, is the selection of cells in the building of a battery pack, and what are some of the other considerations you will have?

37:15Hi, Catherine. I think I can share some examples regarding lithium-ion battery and battery system. For example, for lithium-ion battery, firstly, we have the UL certificate to work as a safety tracking record from the battery cell to battery system. for different applications like electrical vehicle and stationary applications. We will need to pass this certification before generating the real product. When we select the cells, the cells have been under UL 1973, and when we design the packs or modules, we need to consider how to satisfy the safety requirement which will be requested in UL9540. That's our design guideline. But there is a disadvantage because the UL9540 is the best safety certification in the lithium-ion battery, but only applicable for the energy capacity for 250 kilowatt hour. that means if we are designing a bigger system than that capacity, we have no real practical guideline. So that's also something that lack of in the market to guide us for the better safe design. hope anyone can share other thoughts in this part.

38:50For me, I worked mainly towards, yeah, I worked with the R100 and different UL certificates, and I agree with you, there is a big, there is a lot of gaps, I would say, in different standards and different markets they require different standards to be fulfilled. And one small example is, for example, thermal runaway warning, thermal runaway propagation warning. This is really, really important. And you look to the standards now, we have the GB standard and GTR and R100 revision 3, which didn't come yet as a standard, it's still a draft per my, last time I checked, I'm not sure if it's already approved, but in all of them, they are talking about like five minutes between having hazard outside between, yeah, five minutes between having a hazard outside the pack, you should have a warning. And there, they didn't really define what is a hazard. Is it a fire? Is it a gas? Does it depend from cell to cell? Because some cells maybe would produce like different amounts of hazardous gases.

40:00So that is one part I think that, but it's not really my main field, these parts. I don't know if someone else has more depth on that UL standard. Well, apart from UL standards, I think this ties back into the policy question that was being discussed about earlier. And I didn't have a thought there. I was wondering if someone could chime in on battery passport. I'm not sure. That is a policy in Europe. And I'm not sure what aspect of that would cover battery safety. If someone could chime in on the phone. So I'm just going to quickly mute you. battery passport. It's one of these things which came from the World Economic Forum, which is now becoming independent. We're also working with them through battery associates. The battery passport now is very much being integrated in the upcoming battery regulation. So it's something from the European Union, which has a lot of really exciting parts, interesting parts in that, including from supply chains to emission standards and regulations, et cetera.

41:28So this is quite a big one. And we actually had advising some other people working on this at the moment in the European Parliament, et cetera. And yeah, it's super interesting. It's super interesting on the safety aspect. I was just thinking exactly the same thing. I was like, what's on the safety? And of course safety is part of it, but it doesn't have, I mean, it is part of it, but it's kind of, I think, it seems like not to be the biggest concern, which is interesting, right? Because I think safety is one of these things where I think it's very much aligned with what the companies need and want. I mean, I think it's very obvious to every OEM of every car company or any mobility company that safety is paramount for the success of their company. So it might be a bit different compared to, let's say, supply chains or things like that. Here it's not as transparent, but of course battery safety if there's a car blowing up, it's very obvious this will be, you know, this is terrible for a company straight ahead.

42:28But there's also something, I remember there's some conversations actually we had with participants from the BatteryMBA in the past where essentially it will tell us from OEM perspective that there's new rules coming up that essentially they as EV have to warn a passenger, I think, I don't know how many minutes it was, maybe five or seven or so minutes before there's a failure with the EV, like a dangerous failure and they have to warn the user to leave and stuff. Which, you know, they really were kind of thinking how to do that and had some interesting work. And then also there's one thing, maybe just one last thing I can plug here, there's a great book which came out, I'm just going to quickly look again how it was called. But essentially the book is about Tesla, it's about the Tesla story, I very much enjoy listening to it, it's called Power Play by Tim Higgins. And essentially in this audiobook, it's interesting because they're talking about the early days on Tesla, how essentially they will blow up cells to test how dangerous they are on things and they really realize there's danger in there and then they would start developing battery safety and things.

43:40I mean, that's the full story, I don't want to repeat it all, but I think I can very much recommend this. If people are interested in the Tesla story about their battery safety struggle, especially beginning, there's a great book. And then also one thing just to take into account is that cells will always go bad. I mean, there's always bad cells. I forgot the exact number, so they're also mentioning this in the book, essentially what JB Straubel and the team were told by Panasonic at a million cell. And it's not too low. I mean, it's not like massive, but there's always going to be bad cells. And it's kind of impossible to prevent that. Of course, things are getting better. There's lots of startups we know who work on this diagnostics, et cetera. But let's always assume there will be bad cells. So essentially as an OEM, we have to take into account there will be bad cells. You have to develop a safe environment, a safe system, which prevents something bad to happen if there's a bad cell, because there will be a bad cell.

44:32But I'm sure Basim is much better suited to talk from this point. Yeah, I think I just want to compliment what you mentioned. I think most of the standard have these five minutes for the time between warning and hazard. They didn't really define what is a hazard, which is something that me as working, I worked in this topic specifically for quite some time with thermal propagation detection. It is quite a difficult thing to do and it is something that you cannot really test properly. For example, what are the use cases? You don't have a set of use cases which you will just test and say I'm good. That is one problem because you have a lot of dimensions a lot of inputs to the equation a lot of variables which you cannot really control. most of the OEMs use tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers for this kind of things. And then basically you look there into a couple of years ago they used mainly to look at temperature and voltage.

45:47But then with a lot of research they discovered that the voltage and temperature sometimes they come or always become delayed. So you have other things which come earlier. That's number one. Number two that sometimes you have a fast thermal runaway event in one or more cells which kills the sensing node like the voltage and temperature node that is being used to sense the voltage and temperature and according to the placement that one or more cell can heat up and go to a thermal event fast enough to burn either the burn the wire and then you will not see anything and then when you see then it will be too late then they started to look into pressure sensors and pressure sensors the main point is that when the first battery pack is sealed so you almost have a constant pressure there and then when you have a sudden pressure increase then that you can expect that this is due to one or more cells went to venting and when you see tests and I have been doing quite a lot of tests in that part you will see them like you can really see on the pressure sensors when every cell is going to vent you will see it like every cell will do like a high pulse and then a couple of small pulses and then wait a bit and then the second cell will go to venting and then to make a very high pulse and a couple of small pulses etc etc the next the problem about the pressure sensor is that it's like a couple of samples and if you lose them so if you want to do a detection while the vehicle is asleep then you need to the data acquisition rate will decrease because you cannot really make the same data acquisition otherwise you consuming a lot of energy then you may lose the point where you trigger or you catch the thermal runaway or the venting in that case then they started to go to the third part now which is gas sensors and there they focus on two gases hydrogen and carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide is mainly also going a lot into energy storage and one more reason is that if there is some human trapped inside a big energy storage facility then they can detect that someone is trapped there using the CO2 gas sensors which is something I was amazed like I was talking to some supplier a couple of weeks ago and they told me that I never thought about it and then now most of the OEMs mainly use a combination of this so they build up an algorithm based upon their testing and their observation this test and they say this will increase and this will increase and then we will use communication to that node or pressure will increase etc so they build up some system this system has its own limitations this system can give you some time margin of time that you can evacuate the vehicle the problem is that this system is not designed for for example one module going into thermal because if one thermal runaway fast enough it cannot help so it will not give you five minutes so that is and that is one thing tricky which I don't know how it will work really with certificate because now with the GB standard and GTR and R100 vision three I did not really work yet with an example where I need to certify a pack according to this new standard I did not I don't know how every OEM will prove that it's five minutes is it just by one test because there is no defined test there so is it like 50 degrees over voltage of one cell is it a nail penetration like in R100 they have this nail penetration test is it a nail penetration of one cell then it's not going to be a big problem is it over voltage of one cell I don't think it will be a big problem as well but when it comes to multiple cells going into thermal runaway which is mainly thing that can happen due to a malfunction of electric or electronic like overcharge over discharge over current etc these situations are the really dangerous situations and I'm not sure really how this will go further in that direction how we will get better and better maybe with solid-state so I can just pause now and we can take maybe one more round of discussion that's great thank you for mentioning I think that's some really valuable insights you've been sharing so really appreciate it also looking at it there were some new people who joined us on stage Sunil would you like to go next would you like to share something on this topic and maybe you just stepped away that's Sunil now you're back Sunil would you like to share something on this topic any questions we cannot hear you at this point sorry Sunil I'm not sure why but we cannot hear you while you're trying to sort this out maybe Aziz would you like to go next hi Simon thanks thanks everyone for this opportunity I have let me introduce myself first I'm a telecom engineer working in oil and gas industry in Norway I'm not very knowledgeable with batteries but we do use some systems that use batteries offshore but it's not one of the characteristics that we look into or I mean in a way we just deal with the system as a whole so like when a system says or a transmitter says that it can last for 10 years so we take it for granted from the supplier so we're not very technically deep in this subject but my question is what are the latest trends or revolutionary ideas or startups in the battery industry if you guys can have any suggestions for it thanks thanks Aziz I'm not sure if I got the question perfectly you're asking us for startups in the battery space yeah startups or ideas or yeah like latest trends in the battery sure I mean maybe I can do a plug because it's quite a broad question so one is we have also a newsletter on battery associates like battery newsletter if you go on battery associates you can download it people such as Barrett and others who have been speaking here are working on that so every month summarizing some of the latest trends in the battery field like you know developments from yeah you know new announcements of factories to new companies and new yeah all things we find interesting even policy which is of course important as well and another thing I maybe can just plug here quickly is the BatteryMBA battery.mba because funny enough all the last people we interviewed all of them work in all in gas so just maybe give a note on your company here but on the other big ones you know in the battery and gas field so there's been lots of interest recently from online gas which I think is great because it shows people want to either get involved more with their company or independently so I think there's this yeah if you're interested in that I hope you're happy to chat about this as well you can find more about it on battery.mba and here we're literally covering an entire value chain around batteries and from mining in the beginning all the way down to production and recycling and second life etc so I'm not sure maybe that's an easier way than otherwise a very broad question at this point I guess and you can also listen to the recordings of this podcast on Battery Insiders so you can find quite a few recordings there on all kinds of different topics on batteries does this help I hope it does yeah thanks thanks timer thanks thanks for sure thing I will also send you some links in the chat so Neil I think now it seems like you want to try it again try it again I hope I'm modable now yes you are yes you are yeah so I wanted to give my view in this safety and overall in the perspective of battery revolution in my view this it has to the industry has to get segmented like how it got segmented in the case of microprocessor and ICU like fab and fabless companies have really increased scale of new research and it accelerated the research process likewise battery management intelligent battery management systems and battery management as a software should get segmented separately from chemistry battery chemistry is something which has its own safety concerns and battery management where we can intelligently we are using artificial intelligence and other sensors we can detect anomalies you can detect dynamically what is happening one is prevention one is dynamically detection prognosis all these things can be implemented so to escalate these things we need to license them out using APIs and we need to adopt the approach which was used in these fab companies and fab companies which are using these things and this is the way ahead in my view and especially if we see TSMC and how TSMC and these ARMs are using their safety and these things licensing out so that this can development will happen on a rapid scale according to me.

56:46thank you for sharing Sunil any thoughts on this Basimo anybody else in the audience I don't know why it came into my mind the immersive cooling and using it also as a way for fighting thermal runaway propagation I'm not sure if you have any thoughts about it or you saw it in other projects but this is one of the things that I think it's coming in the future and I think it may come into maybe more like products where the coast doesn't have the highest impact like electric planes or something because there is a lot of aspects there so looking into having immersive cooling which can give you this preventive action or delaying of the thermal runaway or maybe like stopping it at a cell level or something that is something I don't know why when I was talking I was like okay this thing is one of the things that is ongoing for quite some time I'm not sure if someone has more information about it if it's already in some products away from having it for servers and computers I'm mainly talking about electric vehicles and batteries for example I know that there's a company in Germany that has been working that I think it's called Lion or something if I'm not mistaken they have been talking about it for quite some years now but I didn't see it myself in any products I want to share interesting thoughts regarding this safety solution so okay we have many safety measures but if we look at the battery different battery types ourselves as different people so imagine they're all athletes they need to go to attend different challenges in the industry and they will be doomed to do different tasks but we should accept they are not perfect and any one of them will have life risk sooner or later on one side we need to give them good equipment but we can never make a real Superman or Batman or Iron man to make them resist every difficulty in front there on the other hand I think we do need a doctor a good doctor like we can frequently monitor their health status needs based on their application needs for example someone is doomed to run from long distance we need this doctor based on this application requirement to evaluate its body status and time basis and give a health status evaluation strategy and also define health prediction for that specific application with that specific battery cell so all of this can be done I think with the help of artificial intelligence and also the big data models I think there's also one potential safety measure which is already happening in the industry I think that's a very important point that you brought here because I can't really talk a lot about it due to confidentiality but I think a lot of companies are already working on that the main problem I think with batteries is that you have a lot of variables so you can do some estimations some predictions of end of life and that also can be taken into not only end of life of the battery but you can do some predictive maintenance you can do some predictive maintenance as well that you know that the contactors need to be changed in the next based upon the usage case of that person then you can customize that person needs to change the contactors in the next three months or whatever in that direction the main problem I think for me when it comes to diagnostics is that a lot of the problems with battery comes from the fact that the cell is really complicated and at the same time it has a lot of dimensions there are a lot of factors that if one factor will slightly change you don't really know what will happen you can't really estimate by a very high degree for example now there is and also one more point before forgetting is that the quality of the data that you collect from a cell level like cell when you collect temperature of the cell you don't really collect the temperature of the cell you collect the temperature of where the thermistor is which is near to the cell but you don't really get the cell temperature and there is no manufacturer I have ever seen has a thermistor for every cell you just put one in one area or two in one area or whatever so the quality of the data itself is not that good there is some advancements like EIS electrospectroscopy which looks in and there's a couple of papers from 2020 and they were talking about using EIS to detect lithium plating and lithium plating is one of the things that is really hard to detect until it's too late so some people use resistance increase some people use capacity decrease but really lithium plating is one of the things that's really tricky and now they are looking into or a lot of people in the industry are looking into using these research papers to build up a system based upon EIS to predict lithium plating because lithium plating is a sneaky problem and it's hard to detect and make a mitigation against until it's too late and you have a short circuit in one or more cells I'm not sure if I answered your question but there is a lot there in that direction just picking out on the EIS topic there was a speaker quite a while back who probably could let you to her interest on the technology for diagnostics so that's probably something you might be interested yep I'd like to welcome Mushin to the stage Mushin do you have any thoughts topics or questions on this oops I think he's joined us on stage by accident by now in case if anyone else in the audience has any thoughts questions on the topic or anything relating to battery feel free to raise your hand now so we have 20 minutes left in the session that's a great time to add anything you have hi Jeff yeah hi so pretty much like a 30,000 foot view question to Basim or anyone else do we have enough data today to know to know what the safety of batteries looks like over the span of battery life can we put together how many failures occur how many life threatening fires occur in batteries in general if so where are we today in terms of EVs compared to IC vehicles is there is Avi at par is there 5-10 years to go to bring the safety level to the same range as EVs and finally especially when it comes to behind the meter storage is there a risk in using lithium iron today and would it make more sense for people to be waiting a few more years because of course you know putting batteries in your house you are expecting a lot of safety you know coming together with it and this isn't just a question of practicality but also spectacle because even if there are a few fires it might just stop the battery story in its tracks for a while especially I'm talking from a country like India where the battery story hasn't really developed much so just a few questions in general how are you looking at in terms of batteries and what's the safety situation like and should we be waiting for the next generation and what kind of messaging should there be if there is a battery fire somewhere should the messaging be that it's still safer than ICs it's just that there has been one fire there's a lot fear around batteries at least from what I can see in terms of just a new technology okay I will try to cover the part I know I mean I watched I think it was some it's some channel on YouTube I think maybe most of the people are interested in EVs they know it's called transport evolved and they have been talking about this maybe like half a year ago and they had some data but I don't really remember so I don't want to give you any wrong data or information here so I think it is something that it can be googled really I know that it exists like how many fires per year for electric vehicle and how many fires for ice so you can really google this it's not a big problem but I think when you like and this is something that really really a lot of anyone who studied statistics will tell you this like with statistics you can really create a lot of wrong a pinch of salt sometimes so when I will look to like EVs or batteries on a general term I would say the problem with batteries is that it's a new technology it's like a fight between a lot of companies in different areas when it comes to energy storage when it comes to electric planes etc it's a huge fight everyone is trying to be to dominate because whoever will dominate will win a lot and a lot of EV companies a lot of companies will die in this fight so everyone is fighting to get the best everyone is fighting to get the highest range the best performance with the highest power and this makes a lot of companies push outside of the limits of the cells unfortunately so until this will stabilize I expect that you will have still in my opinion still safer than ice but you will see incidents from time to time it will not disappear like next year you will still have Chevrolet Bolt and Hyundai Kona accidents but maybe different brands this will never disappear it will maybe decrease when the technology will be more mature and engineers and managers and companies will understand it much better and they will feel confident that you don't need to push the limits more and more and more I think that's in my opinion and also when we have better ways for detection and prevention etc.

1:08:26etc. So from a statistics point I don't know really so I cannot really comment on that but I think we need to look at it more of it is a new technology it's not mature yet it's still a lot of development going on there is a big fight going on so it's not going to stabilize anytime soon at least that's in my opinion I don't know if you have points ! Thanks for that insight in interest of time I would just like to pass the mic to Benny first so that he can share his thoughts about it or questions on the topic given that we have 15 minutes left in the session Benny would you like to yeah madam thanks yeah I are these the same AAA type batteries of 1.2 volts seriously connected and those packs again connected together or can these batteries be sandwiched in such a way that the voltage can be brought maybe to 4 to 5 volt per cell and the cells come down is there a possibility like that I think okay there is no general voltage that all the cells are in it depends on which chemistry are you using so for example if you go to NMC then you are talking maybe 4.1 that's the maximum 4.12 something like this in that range but I think Simon is much better in cells than me when you look to LFP it's a bit lower than that so it's not at one point I think what mainly it's LFP the lowest I know of and because if you look to the anode and cathode electric active materials they are the one that gives you this voltage and then if you look now they are talking like 4.1 maybe 4.1 something and LFP it's a bit lower than that but I think the cells you are talking about maybe it's a different chemistry at all so normally you that's the normal way where you are saying first this this is maybe something that we can take in another session how do you really and that's like engineers and there is engineers working in that only where they are basically dimensioning the battery how to dimension the battery properly but just to make it short you mainly first you look into the max and mean voltage that you need to fulfill in so you look for example to be between 450 or 500 and I don't know 250 that is that max mean for you and then you say okay how many which cell do I use I'm using this cell how many cells do I need to put in series to reach this voltage and then you would say I will put 10 or 15 and then the next point and for for sure and max and then the next point will be I would like this amount of power then power will be depend on how much C rate are you going to take from each cell and then you put all of these cells in parallel to give you this power and then the third point is how much energy do I need to get out of this pack and then you do this so it's mainly building voltage power energy and people are working on that part ok so that 1.2 volt was for NICAD batteries ok so for lithium ions you are saying it's about 4 volt it's 4.1 or 4.125 that's like the maximum I think for NMC I'm not sure about NCA I think it's around the same range but LFP is a bit lower I'm not sure if someone here is more cell experience than me to give you the exact numbers I don't have really exact numbers on the top of my list thanks thank you so if you have any other questions or thoughts on the topic we have about 10 minutes left I very much like the idea of the idea of the sizing etc because I think it also goes very applied on what some people maybe might be a nerdy session but I think it could be useful I think it's also interesting to see where the trends are going to right like what you can see developments like high voltage if you look at the Porsche Taycan and things and others as well where they go really high power and high voltage and we can discuss why this the case and things like that I think there's interesting insights which could be shared it might also be interesting for other experts countries etc Sarah thank you for joining thank you so hello everyone so I can just add a point about the sizing since I am working on a storage system so I can just confirm what some is saying on the battery sizing we normally actually look about it's part of the commercial and economics of the storage system so that's how we decide what should be the voltage of that battery pack and then the other thing is about the current that we are taking there are a lot actually going on on the equipment what the voltage is as when we go with high voltage everything the price of everything going up and also the protection and all the electrical equipment and the safety of that so that's actually an important factor to decide that how you can make those sell in parallel and series and how to design those modules thank you for sharing I just want to have one more point because what I mentioned now one also concern which I'm not really sure we will look maybe or we will know maybe in the near future is that most of the companies now are going after Tesla which is from cell to module to cell to pack design and that will for sure save a lot of space and increase the energy density on a pack level but then from a safety point of view normally we used to have thermal insulators between module to module so you try to delay the propagation of the thermal runaway event from module to module and now we will not be having any modules it will be just a pack with all the cells and we will integrate the pack more into the chassis of the vehicle so the pack itself will be the chassis that means that or does this mean that we are prone to more problems when we have accidents or that doesn't mean it does this mean that we will have a faster propagation or no so these questions for me are still like you know floating so I don't know if someone here has any reflections maybe I share this thoughts regarding your question I think it's related to how we integrated the batteries into the pack before we use battery modules with the simulator but maybe the pooling performance is not that perfect it's not optimized we are able to have a chance to pack all the cell together with maybe more uniform temperature variation so on one side seems like you remove one partition layer but on the other side you reduce the risk to reach the same wrong way so that might come to a balance or compromise there and on the other hand from the point of view if you go to the traditional technologies to convert DC to AC like I think just now Sarah mentioned about the higher voltage actually higher cost of all the protection electronics but now if we found a new technology can directly pack all the cells together to generate AC signal so that would be a different story it's quite innovation story so you don't need to have a high DC in your system it definitely reduce the risk of any danger in future I hope this can help a bit yeah I'm not following this part a little bit because even if you will have even if you will have the the cells in the cells themselves on a system level you still have high voltage right or hazardous voltage right even if the cells will produce will be as you mentioned now right so can you elaborate more your voice is a bit low so I'm just trying to catch that part okay yeah sorry yeah it's like I think there are some startups who are working on this part they are trying to stack all the battery cells in series to generate AC signal directly instead of traditional DC voltage and then convert to AC that means they are trying to combine the PCS function the power conditioning system inverter converter function directly to be embedded together with the cells into the big pack I hope this can explain a bit yes but this because I'm aware of this technology myself and this technology yes it will save you a couple of things so as you say yes it will save you the inverter and you may need still the onboard charger if you need to but my point is that I don't know how this will help you with safety I don't see that still the problem is that it can even be worse in safety because you will need to have really on a cell level or a logical cell as we call it maybe maybe not really a cell but maybe five cells in parallel so every logical cell will act as if it's one cell and then it will produce either DC AC based upon switches so that's I think what most of the companies are working on and that point the problem here is that you are really making a lot of noise and the second part is that you have your monitor so good much more than what we have now due to the effect of the AC signal on the cells as well because the energy throughput can be a bit tricky there but it's still really in the first part but I don't know about safety because from my understanding I didn't see any safety related parts there when I checked that topic but maybe you can elaborate yes I agree with this I think this is quite new technology still needs to be evaluated in the market with some pilot testing something related to safety I do aware that they have the cell level switch or fields to protect they have also inverter level they call it inverter but it's not the traditional inverter level protection they have extra you can add extra box to add another safety layer I mean from the point of electrical side because safety we consider electrical thermal this is only on electrical side on thermal side we save the power conditioning system we save a big guy there so that's also I think it's a good thing from thermal safety that's my understanding thank you for sharing yeah this is some interesting insights for sure any other thoughts on this otherwise we're almost at our end so then before we wrap up today's session any other thoughts final thoughts anybody wants to share for today I can share one thought the battery technology it's we know it from the 220 years ago it's a dangerous technology but so is so electrical vehicles are dangerous because it has a battery but ice vehicles are even more dangerous vehicles electrical vehicles are much more safer than ice vehicles and like we cannot eliminate the danger coming from the batteries we can only manage this danger so we can only manage safety because we have so we can make the battery more safer and safer through innovation but it will be always dangerous technology just to add sir sorry go yeah just to add generally when we use these batteries I was in the UPS industry we have a specific battery room and all that so as the topic says safety here is very very important in the sense this is the first time we are going to sit above the batteries so the biosafety has to be definitely be there just the BMS of as Mr.

1:23:31Basim was saying we cannot rely just on that and sit over a battery okay thank you for me I think my main thoughts would be two parts I think as working with safety myself we are always on a very thin line between over dimensioning and being adequately safe so should we make a semester for every cell that would maybe be over dimensioning should we put only one or two maybe that's under dimensioning you know so we're always in this dilemma of is it safe enough and we always relay on something called best practices and state of the art that is two words that you will hear a lot if you talk to someone working with safety that we always need to follow the state of the art so for functional safety the state of the art is ISO 26262 for automotive that's what most of the companies are following so that's one point the second point as Milo said I totally agree it's dangerous it will get better and better and better both by technology and also when the hype will decrease a bit and it will be stable like ICE that have this very big fight that you need to do or die so this also will help a bit plus if one of the technologies that promises safety like solid-state etc that's one part the second part is that safety also is costly so to produce a safe product and also a product that you can sell it's very tricky because and that so when you are putting money in safety you are putting money which the customer will not really see unless something happens and then we will talk about safety so you will never talk about safety if nothing happens if you have the worst car in when it comes to accidents and it didn't pass any test and it's zero star okay for NCAP for example and then you didn't have an accident while driving this car it was safe for you that is not really safe so you are putting money on something that you cannot really see until you are into the topic so that's very tricky so it's we're trying and doing our best but yeah it's a new technology great thanks so much for that for the closing remark !

1:26:47working on that's not visible but when something happens that's very important not just for the safety perspective for the customers but also for the company's reputation can I just add something quickly because we didn't close up the session just one sentence Basim you are right 50 years old new technology 50 years old technology but still new yes I mean if you look every year there is something else coming right new new new new new cell new cell like now maybe we'll move to sodium-ion or move to solid-state and then bam maybe a lot of our assumptions as safety engineers are off and you need to redo it again that's I think the tricky part yeah I wanted to say that that's natural of lithium-ion battery or battery generally that even 50 years old technology is still new yeah yeah I agree great thanks for that everyone so with that I will close off the session and do feel free to check out the revolution if you have not yet done so just click on the button on the top left hand corner where you see a little house icon and you can follow us for our next time next week at 3pm CET 9pm Singapore time and wherever you are so yeah looking forward to having all of you back again next week and if everyone could give a round of applause for joining us today I'm really thankful for his input on the topic feel free to connect with him on LinkedIn as well if you have any questions do feel free reach out to myself and Simon or if you want to recommend for future speakers do feel free to reach out to us as well so with that thank you for your time and have a good rest of the weekend bye everyone bye everyone thank you bye bye bye bye Thank you.

1:29:32Thank you.