Battery Insiders Reflection - Battery Circular Economy

0:00Transcript

0:00Welcome to Battery Insiders, your podcast providing you insights in the fascinating world of batteries. Hosted by Bhavya Jha and Simon Engelke. And we're back. Thank you for joining us, everyone, for this next edition of Battery Insiders. We just had a great conversation with Dr. Martin Buse over on Clubhouse, and we're lucky to have him join us for the reflection this time. Simon, Martin, welcome. It is great to chat with you guys. We just had a really exciting conversation over with the community. They always get really excited at the end, and so many things came up there. Deep sea mining and, of course, on our topic for today, battery circular economy and practice. There was just a lot going on in terms of policy and legal structures, battery form factors, recycling. What stuck out to you guys? Thank you so much, Bhavya. Yeah, very much agreed. It was a great session. I think it covered lots of ground. And, yeah, I think Martin gave a really great introduction of the topic and some of the work they're doing with the organization, but also beyond that, like from his research and things before.

1:24And, yeah, for me, maybe something I can kick us off, and then maybe Martin want to go next, and maybe Bhavya want to add some things as well. But I think what stuck out for me was, on the one hand, the complexity of the topic. And I think you also mentioned, as Martin, if you want to... You have, like, demanding customers in some way. I mean, you didn't say it this way, but, I mean, the way it is, that everyone now wants to, you know, make sure that whatever they're using is, you know, like, you know, whatever they're doing is the right thing to do. So, let's say, if consumers now switching over to battery-powered, you know, and solar-powered, energy-powered systems, they want to make sure that this is actually better for the environment, you know, and that's better from a CO2 standpoint. And, of course, also some of the ethical questions we lightly touched on as well. And I think, you know, it's really exciting that actually you as an organization really now, you know, says, okay, let's really make this, you know, let's make it an asset in a way to say, you know, let's really build a platform around this and really take this series.

2:19Let's take our customers' series. We know what they want. And really trying to provide them the numbers, the data, you know, and really show them that we can do improvements there and really, like, be proactive rather than, you know, let's see what others are doing, but really trying to take a stand and move on that. So, I think this was exciting to hear and also got a bit of the response. But, of course, you know, people always have more questions and they're going for the next level and the next and the next. So, I'm also kind of curious, maybe, what are your thoughts on that? But also, Martin, maybe, you know, whatever stood out to you today, but maybe some of the questions you found interesting, maybe surprised even, and maybe, you know, just any thoughts you have, Martin, anything you want to add? Yeah, sure. Thank you very much again for having me. And I think it was very exciting to hear what other people think and to kind of hear other ideas.

3:08So, I think it was definitely worth it today. So, what did stuck out for me? I think maybe I can try and summarize the three key messages from my side. So, I think number one is that, you know, we have many different levers along the supply chain to make it more sustainable, to make it more circular, and everyone can focus on what they can do. And I think today I kind of wanted to highlight that within the use and end-of-life phase, there is a lot that can be done, even though a lot of the focus is often on the upstream, on the mining, on the production side of things. And I wanted to really highlight that there is lots that can be done also still during the use phase and afterwards. And the second point, I think, that also spurred a lot of interest is that when I'm thinking about optimizing this and when I'm thinking about second life, I'm really thinking about keeping it within the application.

4:12So, what can we do to keep the batteries and the cells within the loop of the originally intended application as long as possible? Because that's always kind of preferred or easier than switching between sectors and applications, for example, from an EV towards stationary. And I think number three is what enables all of this during the use phase is really making sure you do collect the right data and you are able and you build the capability within your organization to make use of that data. Great. Now, thanks so much for summarizing it and sharing that. And Bavia, back to you. Yeah, thank you so much. I think one of the things, Simon might get a laugh out of this, I'm always looking about standardization and what's going to drive the change. It seems like from our conversation and some of the things you said, don't over-regulate, don't do too much, do less, let the market do its thing. Do you feel like it's already, that's already kind of taken off or do you feel like things are still more in R&D phase and it's too early to really drive like robust change industry-wise as far as circular economy practices go for batteries?

5:35Yeah, I do think that's already happening at different points in the value chain and with regulation in this space, you just have to be really, really careful. You understand what you're doing and you understand what the implications are. And that's just something I want to kind of raise that policymakers are very mindful of, maybe also the unintended consequences of what they are regulating. And that goes in particular for the EU battery regulation. So we have to be careful to not create any adverse incentives and to not make it too complicated for all of the participants. And especially when it comes to the downstream part of the value chain, I think a lot of these things that can be done and that are being done, they don't need special incentives necessarily. because they are in the best interest also of the firms involved and the customers involved. Yeah, absolutely. I think another thing you mentioned was sticking to the same application versus switching applications. And I think switching applications, I've heard of a lot and it seems to be such a hot topic, very popular conversation.

6:51But let's see if people end up really, really deciding that they're just going to stick to one application. That'll be interesting to see what market drivers make that happen. Or even what R&D comes up that really gets people thinking, oh, maybe we should be sticking to the same bespoke applications that the battery was created for to maximize efficiency and optimize resources. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's about priorities or the hierarchy, let's say. And I'm just saying this is where we start. And it doesn't mean that there still might be value afterwards and you still might be using your battery or the cells for a different application. I'm just saying, let's make sure we get the most out of the first life, let's say. So, and I think I made the example with the Volkswagen ID.4 and different capacities. You know, there's people with different preferences and different driving ranges that they require. And it's similar in other applications. And it's just about the hierarchy that I think we really want to make sure that we get most out of it.

8:00And then we can still see whether it's then worthwhile trying to repurpose it for another application or whether it's then better to go to recycling directly. That will be, you know, decided individually. And for sure, there's going to be a market for both of these topics. And we do these things, see these things already. I mean, I mentioned Taipu Towers in China. There's many other examples of companies in Europe repurposing EV batteries. So it is happening anyways. Just a matter of hierarchy and prioritization. Absolutely. Simon, any thoughts? Yeah, maybe just one last thing also. I mean, one thing I've found really fascinating, Martinus, and I think it's very much connected to what you're just talking about is, you know, the role of the consumer. I mean, I think what was really interesting for me today, like this kind of conversation about what's the role of the consumer, what's the role of, you know, the company, and of course, and also from a regulatory perspective. And the one thing I think was quite interesting, you know, just looking at this, I mean, of course, there's many challenges around batteries.

9:04And one, you know, we spoke about the missions and really saying, you know, what's like, you know, essentially give the consumer the transparency and give them essentially the ability to see what's better, you know, environmentally. And I think what you kind of connect to this one, right, like this kind of refurbishing and kind of extending the life, you know, and like you have this kind of platform you were talking about what you're developing that the consumer can say, look, you know, my battery is now not at 80%, it's at 60%. That's still fine, as you said. And in some cases, it's rated fine, but now I need a bit more capacity. So I'm, you know, adding some other extra batteries on, I'm refurbishing it and all these kind of things and really say, you know, here, this is an option to the consumer. And I'm just curious, Martin, I mean, this is something you already have been testing now to really see if the consumers are ready to adopt that.

9:50Because some of them might also say, oh, look, I mean, I get that you tell me now this is good from a mission standpoint, but actually I'm not willing enough yet to say, you know, I actually want this new next battery kind of thing, but I want a replacement or something. I'm just curious, how willing are the consumers now and your kind of experience and your viewpoint right now to actually, you know, work with you on this and say, look, let's really reduce the missions together rather than say, I just want the best thing from you, what I believe is the best for me at this point. Yeah, I think so far customer feedback has been really, really, really positive and people are interested and they want this from us and they expect this as well. And yeah, we haven't been rolling out this as a platform yet. I think that's the next step for us of how we are kind of in the pilot phase, making sure we establish all the processes, establish all on the analytics side of things to make sure this can really scale.

10:42But yeah, customers and like the first interest that we is there and I'm very optimistic. Fantastic. I'm very curious to hear more about this, Martin, and maybe also see in the future maybe come back sometime and tell us, you know, how it's kind of developing further. And I think it's very important to kind of really, you know, to make sure that the customer is kind of involved. And I think often I think people are a bit hesitant. I was at this discussion in the past where, you know, people are hesitant to like, you know, share off information when it saves the consumer and gives them full transparency. And I think it's actually, especially in these days, right, where I think it's definitely more mainstream these days to talk about, you know, climate change. And of course, like, you know, it's a much bigger topic than it was before. And I think also in the mind of consumer, that's much bigger. And of course, you said also in your use case, it's a very, you know, it's like a very premium kind of also, more like premium, but like also very knowledgeable maybe user segment.

11:38Bavia, did you have something on that? I think, no, I don't. I think we, it's been really nice to hear from both of you a bit about our reflections from our conversation today and to learn a lot from both of you. I just want to say thanks for making the time and for making it possible. Okay. Thank you all from my side and talk to you soon. Yes, talk soon. Join us next time for our next rendition of Battery Revolution over on Clubhouse. And we hope to get all of your input regarding Battery Insiders. Feel free to reach out to us for those of you listening for future topics, future speakers. And with that, Simon, I think we can call it for today. Absolutely. Big thanks again to Martin to spend your time with us. I think it was a fascinating conversation. Same to you, Bavia. And yeah, maybe just one last quick thing. As discussed earlier, the next session is in about a month's time.

12:39It's on the first Saturday of next month, so the first Saturday of March. So don't miss out. Also, if you want to go on batteryinsiders.com and put your email down, so you're going to be notified on this. And yeah, also, if you're on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or any of these other platforms, please give us a like. That really helps us to increase so you can also comment now on Spotify. I saw for free to share it with any of your friends. It really helps us to share these insights. It's always really amazing to hear from all the people who have been listening to us in the past. Thanks everyone. Have a wonderful day and see you very soon.