Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Battery News and Updates

0:00Transcript

0:00Okay, welcome back, everyone. Welcome back to the 47th session of this. So it's always kind of amazing to see that. On top, we see the 47th session. They got started by Catherine and myself over a year ago, we met on Clubhouse. She's unfortunately quite busy at the moment. So she's been able to join more recently. I'm quite confident she's gonna hopefully have more time again soon. And but also have some amazing other cohorts and moderators and you see some familiar faces already here on stage like Christopher and Barrett. So we all should be in good hands. And these sessions are really meant to discuss all kinds of battery topics. We often have guest speakers, we have a really exciting guest speakers for the next one. If you look on the page, you can already see who that is. And of course, there have been many amazing people also here in the past. But today we do more like community session, which means to see, you know, there to kind of explore different topics, we have a really open discussion. I think we're going to start a bit on covering some battery news, some new battery news, we're kind of summarizing. And some events as well, which are going to take place soon. So give a bit of a deep dive on these. And then really, you know, everyone is welcome to come on stage as any question might have. If you cannot speak, you can also use the chat function. And also if you don't have time right now, the replay will be here on this app clubhouse, as well as on Spotify and all these other platforms through our battery insiders podcast.

1:21Great. Looking at that maybe, or maybe one class thing, if you come on, there's two things you can do. One is you kind of can applaud by quickly flickering your microphone like this. Or you can do it slowly like this to say that you want to speak next. Let's see if you need it. And I'm also not sure if any other rooms that uses that. I think that's kind of has been the, the, the, the way kind of communicate here on this app. But now of course you also have more messaging functions. You can also just write in the chat if you want to say something next. Great. And with this, maybe I can give to you, Christopher, um, on some battery news. I know you also had the battery sources, battery newsletter. You have to look at this as well, but also Barrett was the main driving force behind us writing this. So maybe if either of you or both, maybe just want to get started on sharing some of the news you find interesting from the past month or anything beyond that, then maybe we can also compliment on this news front and anybody here who's in the room for free to also come on stage and share your thoughts on this as well. Chris, is that better? Yeah. Chris, are you going to go first?

2:28Yeah. Obviously on Thursday, battery associates released, uh, it's February newsletter. Lots of interesting sort of points in there over the last month. Uh, don't know if you want us to go, uh, sort of mention all of them, Simon, or just some of the standout ones. Yeah. And for free to also bring your perspective, maybe some, you know, I'm sure there's some things which stick more out to you for you to go on them and then Barrett and I can offer compliment. Yeah. So I think one of the, one of them is obviously, uh, Ford and, uh, you know, it's, uh, an ultimate spend 20 billion dollars to accelerate a shift towards EVs by restructuring, uh, it's, it's organization, uh, specifically it's sort of, uh, splitting into two sections, uh, Ford blue looking after, uh, it's ice sort of operations, uh, and then Ford mobility a, which will look at the, uh, EVs and also, uh, the connectivity for across the whole business. Uh, I mean, there was some interesting points that came from that, you know, uh, Ford, it raised its profitability projections, uh, uh, operating profit margins. I believe there was, uh, around a 10% expectation increase by 2026, uh, sorry, increased to 10%, uh, within, which is 8% overall on its expectation. Uh, you know, this is good news. Uh, you know, the, the, the expect EVs to account for 50% of, uh, Ford's global sales by 2030, uh, previously that was 40%.

4:07Uh, you know, I like this one, uh, in the news, uh, and it was one of the standard ones for myself. Uh, if we look at also sort of Volvo cars and, uh, Northvolt, you know, the selected Sweden for the R and the battery manufacturing plants, uh, you know, Northvolt are established in, in Sweden. Uh, you know, they've got the, uh, Scaliftea, Vasteros, and now this with Volvo. Uh, I think it's good news for EVs. I think it's good news for Volvo, good news for Northvolt. Uh, so it'll be interesting to see how that develops. Uh, and then, and then there was some sort of on the, the, the recycling, the recycling side, you know, there was an announcement, uh, of a joint venture between, uh, Bridgevolt and, uh, Glencore based in the UK. Uh, it's, it's good to see these, these types of joint ventures, you know, that we, we talk a lot on how sort of recycling, uh, the, the issues around recycling, uh, but actually say sort of manufacturers take this into account and sort of moving towards it.

5:21Uh, I really like, like this idea, you know, uh, sort of looking at the, looking at the issues and challenges before, uh, the challenges occur. Uh, and then sticking with, uh, recycling was the, the Redwood materials one that was also, uh, sort of covered, uh, that they were moving, they're looking and planning, uh, European recycling. Uh, now this is, this, this is another one, you know, the, the recycling markets expanding, uh, can only be sort of good moves were closer towards the, uh, sort of, you know, closed loop systems and circular, uh, economies, no information yet on where the, the, the plant will be, uh, you know, but there is links previously with Redwood with the likes of Tesla, Ford and Volvo. So maybe it's, it's close to sort of, uh, I don't know, Tesla in, uh, Germany maybe. But I think, I think those were the, the, the standout ones for myself, uh, Barrett. Yeah, it's, it's, uh, different, uh, uh, ideation. So, uh, for me, uh, the recent newsletter was covering a lot of information, which includes policies across different countries, which includes European-based policy acceleration and American-based policy acceleration, and also Asian countries are also creating their own policies to support creating the local supply chain and locking the, you know, natural resource potential within the country boundaries. So that was very interesting to me.

7:10And, uh, I think one of these recent, you know, geographical conditions happening between different countries is, uh, is creating a, a new disruption, uh, in supply chain and also in industries. So I think there will be a lot of push towards funding and also towards angel investor or any kind of venture capital investment in renewable energy sector across Europe. I hope there will be a lot of funding in Germany, Italy, and also in some other countries, which is not having a very established, uh, green energy solutions at this moment, because Europe heavily relies on, uh, you know, foreign countries for their energy, uh, conceptions. So I think there will be a lot of updates in this particular regards. Uh, this is what my, my, this is what attracts me more with this news, which is very interesting. I hope many more funding rounds will be announced, uh, not only by the European Union, but also by the regional governments like Germany announced that they are going to be, uh, completely, uh, uh, you know, not completely, maybe like they are pushing their green goals towards energy consumption. That means they are also going to have a lot of, uh, offshore power storage, uh, plants and energy grid plants and things like that. So I think that it's a quite a very headache, uh, no funding situation happens in Europe.

8:36Thank you very much for sharing that and Mark, thanks so much for, for joining us as well. Is there any, any kind of, you know, news you've interesting in the past month and developments or anything what just Christopher and both mentioned? Well, I, uh, missed the, uh, other talks. So, um, there's just been a lot of, uh, movements in the news regarding, uh, Tesla and, um, Redwood materials. And, um, I'm trying to remember exactly. I know that, uh, um, Yvonne made an announcement saying, hey, look, there's your prices. We do start pumping more gas, um, and actually drilling more, but, um, regarding batteries. Um, I need to think about that for a second. I can come back to you guys later. Yeah. And also one of the interesting thing, which is happening is that a lot of push is happening towards the recycling industry because, you know, the very big recyclers, you know, let's say the Canadian recyclers and American recyclers are entering into the European market by strategic partnership with battery manufacturers, because, because of European union's battery regulation, it is mandatory to have a certain percentage of recycled material in a new manufactured battery.

9:54So instead of creating their own research facility, companies are trying to find a quick solution because of this strategy, this kind of a strategic partnership is happening between battery recyclers and also battery manufacturers. So let's say this Lee cycle partnership with, uh, a moral batteries in Norway to create their, uh, you know, battery supply chain. And also, uh, this Redwood Materials said that they are going to come, uh, they are going to, uh, uh, come to Europe as soon as possible. They recently hired a guy who is going to take care of the European region business. And also they are going to recruit a lot of people on this particular, uh, sector. And they're also in talks with various battery manufacturers across Europe to, uh, enter into the European market through strategic partnerships. So this is, this is quite interesting at this moment, because I'm seeing all the recycling manufacturers are coming to European, uh, you know, you know, European region and also in some other regions as well. So these kinds of strategic partnerships are happening to lock the secondary, uh, battery raw materials inside the region.

11:04This is very interesting. So following up with what you said, um, it's exciting, but unfortunately a lot of it's on paper at this moment, but as you, as you know, the value directive requires a certain percentage of, um, recycled materials, materials, because as you know, there's very little to meet the requirements. There really isn't that capacity in Europe at the moment. So I'm, I'm curious to see how that actual capacity in the ground will actually, um, work. So, um, yeah, we'll see how that happens. Yeah, that's really true because, uh, the European union has given a very, uh, direct, uh, directive towards the battery manufacturers, but there is a recent white position paper published by the battery manufacturers and saying that, uh, uh, the, the, the policy that you proposed is like not so easy to achieve. And because, you know, as, as, as you said, is it not possible? It's, it's, it's not, it's like, it's kind of not, uh, not feasible to have a certain percentage of raw materials.

12:06It's quite hard because they want to scale their arm and real facility. And then only they want to see how, how they can achieve the policy proposed by the European union. But as, as you say, uh, market is really, uh, it's quite tough for the companies to do so that they, that they clearly explained in their position paper, they created a consortium of battery manufacturers and published a position paper, and they submitted that to the European union. Of course, there will be a lot of problem, but it seems that European union is very, you know, uh, strong towards the policymaking, uh, in terms of recyclability and sustainability. So I think somehow the companies will find the answer because North world and other great manufacturers are saying it's possible. Uh, but we want to see how it will unfold in future. Let's it's like, we want to wait and see. Thank you. And maybe just one quick thing to add to this one, right, Mark, and I'm sure you know more about this as well, but I mean, I think as far as I understand, excuse me, um, um, you know, the recycling volume really is coming through the scrap from the fund of manufacturing, like from the scrap rate, at least that's what I've seen, you know, the, the cyclists kind of showing. So I think when I look at some numbers, for example, I have in front of me here from one of those cyclists, they kind of show that up to 2030, they expecting, you know, more than 50% of the material to be recycled will be scrap compared to, you know, know, batteries coming from, from maybe some transportation, et cetera. And we can see, right. I think right now it's like, yeah, maybe about 90% or so, um, globally, um, from, from, you know, recycled like a material, which are like cells, which have to be recycled. They're coming from, from the gear factories. And I mean, looking at what Europe has planned, right? Like, I mean, I think, what is it like a thousand gigawatt hours or so to be installed for production? Of course, there's a lot of scrap coming. If you talk about scrap rates, I mean, again, very, very varied, you know, I think we had scrap rates from 5% up to 80%. And of course it's, you know, the lower, the better, but I think especially in the early phases, also not the fully optimized plants also can have quite bad school, like comparatively, um, you know, bad scrap rates. So I think there's also a lot of discussion we also had in this BatteryMBA, for example. And, um, so I think for me, it makes sense that they come to Europe, right? I think there should essentially be a recycling, you know, facility almost close to all the eco factories. Um, also from a logistic standpoint, I mean, you know, it's quite tricky to kind of move some of these cells also across country lines.

14:30And if they're a bit risky, if they're like, you know, batteries, which are malfunctioning, et cetera, like not all perfect. Um, you know, you probably want to recycle them closer than shipping them a lot. So I'm not sure if you have any thoughts on this, Mark or Christopher or anybody about it. Um, because also get your thoughts. Yep. So I, I'd agree with you, Simon, you know, the, it's tricky enough shipping, shipping batteries, but when batteries are classified as sort of waste, scrap, no good. Uh, if it brings in even, even more questions, uh, so having the recycling capabilities closer and not having to ship them sort of, uh, uh, huge distances, uh, you know, it's the same sort of thing. And now you think with supply chains, you know, the, the more you can answer on shore the supply chain, uh, the better it is for the, the, the manufacturer. And you're then not looking at sort of long lead times, uh, transportation costs, uh, sort of, uh, inventory, but, you know, back to the original part of the recycling, I think it makes a lot of sense, bringing it in. You touched on some, so some figures there from, from scrap rates, uh, you know, thousand gigawatt hours of planned production in Europe, uh, you know, it's, it's a huge amount. And when you talk about commissioning sort of these factories from the minute you press the start button, they'll not be producing a sort of, uh, extremely high rates, uh, high sort of world-class levels of sort of, uh, low scrap rates. A lot of what the producer will be buying off the facilities to begin with.

16:07Uh, obviously however long that takes is it'll differ by, uh, manufacturer, but certainly to have the capability to be able to, uh, transport that sort of waste material locally, sort of cross country, rather than sort of shipping them, uh, across seas and, uh, you know, running risk, then I think it makes perfect sense. I'll follow up on what, uh, Simon said and Chris did, uh, before. So yeah, it, um, it makes a lot of sense that the, the directive will drive the in-ground recycling in Europe, because as we know, there's, there is scrap available. It can't be shipped to China, although China could recycle it because they have the capacity to do that. And, um, so that will also drive the, uh, in-place recycling facilities in Europe. Um, I don't know what technologies in terms of recycling. There's certainly different technologies. Uh, Pyro will be pushed out eventually because of the, uh, recovery procedures required by the battery directive. And, uh, as, um, as Chris mentioned, the supply chains will get shorter because, you know, for example, issues with our shipping cathodes across the world, uh, that doesn't make sense for, um, for many reasons. And so obviously we have the manufacturer, we have the recycler and then that recycled material perhaps will have a, uh, cathode, shipped to the cathode because it'll produce, it may be a battery grade material perhaps directly to the cathode. So we have manufacturer, recycler, back to cathode production, back to the cell production, back to battery pack production.

17:58So, um, it's pretty exciting to see how that all integrates because it's still very early stage, but it is very exciting because that directive is really the biggest, brightest factor because right now the economics of battery recycling aren't actually that great at the specific moment. Yeah. I do want to add one more thing because when we started, uh, seeing different case studies for our battery supply chain course that we are developing on, we walked on, we are working on a case study for not kind of a case study and analogy to understand the supply chain of this CATL. Now, usually what you said is completely right Mark, because usually the cathodes and anodes are manufactured in the Chinese market and exported throughout the globe. Even various manufacturing companies are looking to different, you know, nearest, you know, cathode or anode manufacturers, but, but the cost parameter also is very important. Uh, it's, it's not so easy to find a very, uh, you know, cost effective anode or cathode manufacturer. CATL is also looking, see, for example, CATL had a partnership, a partnership with, uh, uh, uh, BASF in Europe. They said that they are going to work together in cathode manufacturing.

19:10I think this is the first kind of thing which is happening in the European market. So this is how the supply chain will become shorter in the upcoming future, because usually CATL purchase all, most of their cathode materials from Chinese market, but because of the directive or because of some kind of policy constraints, sustainability, laws and regulations, CATL is now partnership, doing partnership with European companies. And also CATL is planning to establish their manufacturing facility in us. Uh, hopefully I think CATL also looks some kind of quality partners in the American market as well. So it's, it's only possible if you have a regional supply chain, because all, all the governments are creating policies to take advantage of their resource and raw materials. Now, most of the raw materials are coming from Africa, South America, because Europe, Europe is also started searching for their own battery, um, um, minerals. And they are also planning to launch, uh, uh, at least 10 mining explorations. I think, uh, that we mentioned in the newsletter, even American government is planning and they started on a, you know, very big mission to find the resource in their own country. So I think the supply chain will become shorter and local regional supply chains will dominate the battery industry. Maybe not, not in this decade, not maybe in this decade, it depends on the policy, but of course, in future, for sure, the supply chains will be regionally stabilized than having a global supply chain.

20:38Thank you so much. I want to, for sharing. And that's also invitation for anybody else who's in this room. If you want to share anything of any thoughts on these topics, I see some new familiar faces like crystal and bill and free to, to, to come up as well. Um, love to have you in this conversation. We're just talking a bit about some of the battery news. If you, if you're a follower of ours, you have been receiving the latest battery newsletter, um, and as much earlier on Thursday, our support will also update. Uh, you can click on the link on the top. You can either subscribe to it if you haven't done so already, or you can find some of the past, um, newsletters as well. I'm sure Barrett also going to add on the latest newsletter on the website soon. So if you have missed it, it can also be it up there again, no issue at all. Great. Just going to give it a second for anybody who wants to kind of come up, ask anything, share anything. Otherwise also, I can maybe do a bit of a quick overview of some of the events which are going to come in this coming months. This might be, be fun. And I also see, Oh, we actually have this new room chat function.

21:46And we have a question from Michelle. And it helped us maybe project I'm doing as we need funding and future men power to scale. And Michelle, if you want to share anything on this, feel free to either do it in the chat or come on stage. Um, if you're still here, happy to hear from your side as well. That's actually also something I've heard quite a lot, quite a few people converting some, um, yeah, you know, I see east to, to battery to a battery powered vehicles. So that's definitely, I think of momentum in this space. Great. Um, if there's nothing else, anybody wants to share at this point in time, and maybe we can give a quick overview of some events we having in the coming months. So there's two events, um, which we are having. So one is more focused on the mining side and the supply side. Um, and Christopher, I'm sure you also know a bit about this as well. It's called the battery mining dialogue, um, which is going to take place on the 16th of March. Um, I'm just going to quickly open the page as well. So it can give you the latest, um, official speakers because there's quite a lot of interesting speakers, uh, take part and some of them are now public. So let me tell you the ones who are public. So we have, but this again, there's a free event. You can just go in there. I will also pin it on here. I think that's quite nice. Um, so if you want to look at there, just give me one second.

23:13Okay. Brilliant. Just kind of quickly put here. So anybody wants to, who's on the app right now, can also read it on there in parallel. Great. Okay. The link is up. So yeah, this battery mining dialogue, again, it's a free event for free to all come. Um, you know, it's, it's going to take place on the 16th of March. It's taking, I think five, six hours or so for free to drop in and out. There's going to be lots of interesting different panels and also network opportunities. And the panels we have, um, here, uh, one, we start on the supply and demand of critical metals and, you know, speakers we have there. Um, so can the chief sustainable officer at The Metals Company, um, Erica combo, um, I'm sure we're going to have a few more names announced this soon. I know there's already some more confirmed, but they're not on the website yet. Then we have a second panel, just more than standards and regulation of batteries. If I light with us from truth from like the more, you know, like testing and sanitization body from the space than China and Asia, that's going to be interesting to have his perspectives on the Asian side. And Natalia from head of standards and assurances at the Alliance for responsible mining, things can be interesting as well. Talk about responsible mining. Of course, it's a big topic.

24:32And then we also have Tillman from systemic, the co-lead of, um, so can build the platform. And he knows a lot and lot and it's very heavily involved in the European better regulation as well as the battery passports. And yeah, that has a really great overview. And he shared also some of the, just recently in the lecture in the Battery MBA. And then we have some networking sessions, which is really nice because we use this platform called hop in, which makes it very easy to kind of connect with each other. So it's like chat roulette, but only with get battery enthusiasts. So I think the best kind, and then we have probably like a keynote. We're just confirming that it'll be great. And then we have another panel. This is going to be on traceability and blockchain technology for supply chain tracking, which is going to be lots of fun as well. I'm sure. And speakers include Luis from Sokola, Tanya from Kamni chain, Astasia from Eurasian Resource Group, resource, and then also someone probably from MineHub and potentially someone from MindSpider.

25:37So this should be really, really fun as well. It's going to be a great panel. Then we have another one on sustainable mining back practices and ESG and human rights. This is Lucy Crane, ESG and sustainable manager at Cornish Lithium, which is some really interesting work in Cornwall in the UK, which also is a great Ted talk in case you follow TEDx or Ted in these kind of regards. And then we have Karen Hudson, Edwards professor for mining of Cambodon School of Mines, University of Exeter. And then we have another panel, which is a bit optional. We will see if you still will do it because just realized it's a lot of panels and we might switch it to another kind of more networking related session or like some deep dives. And if you do it, it's going to be on application of the battery mining sector, of mining sector, and the considerations for battery manufacturers. Great. I think that's maybe just a bit of an insight there. If you have any questions or are interested to kind of also speak or something, for free to just get in touch. We have a few remaining speaking slots, but they're filling very quickly. This should be lots of fun. And I think it'd be interesting and important conversation to have, especially now as we often talk about supply chain issues and the need for finding more materials from all over the world. I think it's going to be an important discussion. We also have to have some more miners involved as well. Hey, Jill, very good to see you as well. We're just talking about some of events coming up, such as the battery mining dialogue, which also anyone who's part of the veteran BA right now will also get some special tickets to that. So you can see that very soon in your mailbox. Great. Is there any thoughts, any questions on this event before I go to another one?

27:19Actually, I just came from a mining conference and I went to a video of the battery materials talk from things like exploration, lithium mining, cobalt mining, of course, the mineral processing, extractive energy of that. And so the take along is that there's not a lot of cobalt outside of, for example, DRC. And that if we're going to move, we're going to move to the battery materials. And so the take along is that there's not a lot of cobalt outside of, for example, DRC. And that if we're going to move outside of the cobalt sources, we may have to speed up the permitting strategy process because that takes up a lot of, particularly United States, I don't know about Europe. That could take years for that to happen. If we really want to have a cobalt supply outside DRC, we have to speed up that permitting process and perhaps more government funds as the United States for processing that cobalt or obviously recycling that cobalt. So that's my quick thoughts on battery mining. That's interesting. Can you maybe share that?

28:32DRC. Yeah, let me hear. Yeah, I don't know if it's recorded, but it was an actual conference that I went to. It was a 5000 person conference. Yeah, I can definitely see that link. DRC. Amazing. Thank you. And even if there's not recording, it's already just really interesting to see kind of who's speaking, who's kind of out there because I mean, it's fascinating, right? We also had seen startups from doing all kinds of new mining technologies from like underwater mining and desalination and things. And yeah, I think there's a lot of momentum also in the space. And so it's interesting to see this, even just the lineups from these events to see what's out there, what's kind of hot this point. Great, thank you. If there's no other fall at this time, from anybody, I can maybe go to the second event I might want to share now. And thanks. I think Mark, awesome. Thanks so much for sharing this. This link, have a look on this as well. The second kind of event less like conference with more like a hackathon was also taking place on March is taking place on the 20th to 26th of March. And it's called battery death, the global battery developer competition.

30:06Let me just quickly switch the link here. Great. And yeah, so as you can see here, we have this tricky on the link. It's more like a one week event, more like a hackathon. If you've ever been in a hackathon, essentially, you want to build something quick and something you know, in a very short time. And so here we're talking about battery data and battery coding. This event is actually the second time we're doing it. We've done a smaller version of this one year ago, pretty much, which has been a lot of fun as well. We have participants from all around the world, looking at some more electric bus data and trying to do some battery degradation prediction, which was really interesting. And yeah, it was really, really cool experience. Obviously, there's lots of demand and lots of interest to help there, be involved in build tools which are open source, which can really be used for the community. And now we're doing it a second time and quite a bit bigger. So one thing we already have mentioned is that we have a really exciting battery EIS impedance, like to impedance data set from QuantumScape. So also data sponsors, but we also hopefully have some other data sets, we're just kind of finalizing right now on the field data, as well as some academic data. There should be three challenges in total. And yeah, so this should be lots of, I think hopefully something for everyone interested more in the field data, more interested in, you know, more like testing data or something maybe slightly more exotic, like EIS data.

31:38And yeah, so this should be a really nice experience. We have again, participants all of the world, we have some great sponsors, maybe I mentioned them here, we haven't really done some LinkedIn, but I think we are in the trusted community. So sponsors include Dyson, going to be one of our gold sponsors there. But we also have other ones, looks like healthy is involved button for our boom street group events as a partner. So some great names, people from different sides of the industry, more on the consumer side, more the utility side, more on the battery development side, and there might be some more of you adding onto it, just sort of a few more conversations. So yeah, if you're interested in battery data, or like, you know, just want to learn a bit more about this, it can also be a great, I think learning experience, you don't have to, you know, say that you're like, you know, not everyone, I think can win. So if you feel like you just want to go there and learn, you know, and connect with like many people and have a great week, then it's all free. And you know, the upside is that you will definitely hear from interesting people, you're going to meet interesting people, and potentially you can also bring something so yeah, also can really recommend this really would love to have many of you there. I know some of you already are going to be there since on signups. But yeah, just another event from our side, you might want to participate in. And again, it's free. So don't hesitate to join for that.

32:57Maybe Christian in the room, you know, Christopher, Barrett, Mark, have you ever done something with battery data? I'm just curious, actually, I'm not sure if I ever asked everyone here. So from a manufacturing point of view, I've obviously been involved with data obtained throughout the throughout the process of manufacturing, and then use that data for various manufacturing purposes, but not directly involved with things like simulations, etc. Thank you for sharing. How about you, Barrett? Yeah, so I started working on battery modeling using the PIBUM open source tool. So I usually model physical modeling of batteries. But the main problem for the researchers is very hard to get industry data. That means a very massive data, which has the real scenarios. Because if you're working in a research environment or a laboratory environment, it is simple to get a data from a laboratory scale. But I think the battery data team is doing a very great job by bringing the industry database to the hands of the battery, battery data scientists or battery engineers. I think to that, they can understand the real scenarios, what the batteries is undergoing, what kind of pressure or what kind of problems that batteries is really facing in the environment. I think that's a very nice initiative. Definitely, I will also try to see and maybe participate or something. Let's see how I can learn from the database that you guys are telling to me.

34:40Well, I have an analogous sort of discussion. So at the conference I went to, the in-person conference, there was a lot of discussion of life cycle analyses. And one of the weaknesses is that you can't need actual data from production facilities, which I know that companies in Europe are willing to give. But companies in Asia typically aren't willing to give their energy mix, for example, to really demonstrate, look, recycled batteries are better for the environment than, say, private production batteries and private production materials. So that data is essential to demonstrating the value proposition of recycled materials. Speaker 1 Very cool. No, thanks so much for sharing everyone. And I think, yeah, I think that's something important. Also there's, you know, different kind of data. And I've seen also the most QuantumScape. And maybe we can ask, we know Tim, who's the city of Tim Holme, we're going to be the causation set on this next podcast, the next class session and then podcast as well in a month's time. And I've seen that also trying to do, you know, use machine learning for some of their production optimization. And I'm sure you can also do lots of interesting other things. And looking at also, I think a big topic is also I've seen trying to figure out, right, like, you know, what's like, you know, do you do recycle some materials to try to use second life and these kinds of things. And I think all of these things are very much connected to data. So I think there's many tangents, maybe rather than just the classical PS and battery test data and, you know, try to predict how long they're going to last. I think there's actually much more you can do with it. So I think hopefully there are going to be many more interesting challenges. We've got to try to address the future competitions as well.

36:35Speaker 1 I think one of the interesting parts as well, Simon, is, you know, we can see the data, but it's understanding the environment and the variables that the data was captured in. Speaker 1 Speaker 1 That's that can sort of change how the data can be perceived, for instance. Speaker 1 Can you share a bit more about what you mean this environment, you mean like temperature and humidity and things or? Speaker 1 Yeah. So when you're looking at sort of how the, how the, the, the, the batteries sort of performing, you know, if you're doing sort of testing it, what sort of environmental, uh, sort of features as are you performing the tests in where the temperature, uh, the ambient temperature, so the, the, the room temperature or the temperature you're taking the actual, uh, the, the battery to it not performance. Do you ever cut off on it? Uh, Speaker 1 And that, and that's just sort of one, maybe two areas, you know, the, there's probably a lot of them.

37:44Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh, so Christopher, are you asking about, uh, how to, what, what is the way that they do testing and provide data, uh, in the industry or, uh, is it, uh, are you asking that particular, uh, question or? Speaker 1 Yeah. So when you, when, when you're saying the, the data, uh, you know, and lots of companies are bringing sort of, uh, data to that, but how was the data actually captured? You know, how was the, how was the, uh, the, the, the testing done? Uh, you know, we see a lot on sort of, uh, solid-state on sort of the, the performances of, of solid-state, but, uh, you know, how, what was the pressure that the battery was applied to the battery where, but during testing, uh, how was the, the, the test performed? There's more than just the data that's actually being shown. I feel. Speaker 1 Mm. Uh, I can add some comment on it because when I started writing the battery testing, we are writing a battery testing related blog for Battery Associates. So mostly all the, you know, there are a lot of parameters to understand in battery. For example, if you are talking about, uh, physical simulation of batteries, you have more than 200 parameters, but let's say we are, when you are talking about industrial testing of batteries, you want to test the battery in an ideal condition, let's say at 25 degrees Celsius in a controlled temperature unit. I think that's why you can find these 25 degrees Celsius marking all the battery, uh, battery papers. Let's say the product papers, which you get from the company, let's say, if you are asking a company to give you a a spec sheet about their battery, they will mention what is the maximum temperature the battery can operate? What is the minimum temperature the battery can operate? And they will say that all these readings are taken under a 25 degrees Celsius. So this is a kind of a standard procedure with some companies or mostly major companies are doing it, but you know, the, the, the data sheet which the companies are providing is it's, it's just a reference point. For example, if CATL or Panasonic is providing a data sheet, but, uh, we just want to see how this battery cells are working for our environment. Let's say if you are a Canadian company, you are using the battery cells and the, the batteries will perform in a different way because the temperature and the humidity are completely different in Canada. If you're using the same battery in India, the battery performance will, it's like the, the real battery performance will be there, but because of the environmental impact, the batteries will all will have a different, you know, uh, different kind of an, uh, um, you know, uh, uh, uh, impact. So I think it's quite important to understand the environment better and then test the batteries and simulate the batteries in the, in the laboratory to make your, make your system very efficient or else you, you know, the understand and doing the R and D in the battery is not valid. So this is, this is really a problem in the battery industry, but mostly when, uh, companies are talking about, uh, battery, uh, safety or battery kind of data, usually they have third party datas. And there are a lot of, uh, a lot of organizations and consortium, the government is creating and providing directives, like what kind of, uh, you know, uh, battery safety standards you should follow.

41:02It's, it's on the board. Many companies have their own, but now Europe is proposing something. America is proposing something. There are still a lot of way to go in standardizing the safety parameters of battery, but yeah, that is a standard framework you can follow, uh, for manufacturing or, or for battery safety, but still there are a lot of way to go. Still, we don't have a very standardized, you know, standards as we have for IC engines or something else like that. So this is what, from my understanding, when I started reading or writing the blog for battery testing. Great insights. Thanks. Thanks, Christopher. Fantastic. Yeah. Thank you. I love your passion, Baris. So hopefully you also, as you know, both in battery death and things like this, I think it's going to be lots of fun. And I think also what you said, right? Like this, there was a great lecture on this this week, um, about the difference, you know, between, um, different ways you can do it in a physical, you know, physical, like models, you know, and then looking more on, you know, um, statistical kind of models, like other ones, you know, like if you look at degradation, right, you have different approaches, like you mentioned, type of versus kind of making sense out of lots of data.

42:18Yeah. I do have one question guys, because when I started reading about these kinds of data data-driven process of controlling the battery manufacturing for higher efficiency, people always talk about this twin manufacturing process. And also people talk about, uh, controlling the manufacturing process through data analytics. Uh, can anyone can give insights how this thing works because they said from mining exploration to battery complete manufacturing, they, they take data from each and everywhere, let's say, uh, import like mining materials and making a cathode slurry, making an anode slurry and, uh, doing the process. So do anyone have the experience of understanding these kinds of data sets or, uh, I think Simon may, maybe because, uh, do you have any insights on it? Have you been through any data sets, not only the battery data sets, I'm talking about the manufacturing of battery data sets. So if anyone has insights, please, please share with us. Awesome. Thanks for, thanks for sharing some, some, some thoughts. I would love to have you on stage.

43:39Let me invite you if you want to share your question, your thoughts in person. I'll say, are you able to speak? Essentially, I see here a question as to the BMS. So we have this new function here, like a group chat. Sorry, I'm going to speak, no problem. So you're asking about if you have any idea how to extract data from a BMS used industry, LG cam specifically, not sure LG cam, are they making it on BMS? And what do you mean like for, for the cells? Maybe share a bit more. I mean, how to extract BMS, I mean, they're all different BMS systems, right? But we know a lot of, I mean, lots of companies we work with, you know, they get quite a bit of data back. And I think it depends a bit on your BMS system, but also the amount of data you can send back. So yeah, if you want to share a bit more on this, we either do it in chat, or also happy to follow up afterwards. I just followed you. So if you want to follow me back or something about your message, happy to talk about this further as well.

44:48But yeah, of course, getting the right data is very, very key. And yeah, of course, I think the big thing what many people don't know is, you know, the difference between academic data, like from a lab, and then field data, which of course, is a very different story. And yeah, you have to make sure, you know, you can handle it. And that's why also in these competitions, we like to have both. So also to kind of bridge the gap a bit more kind of understand people understand how to work with either, and specifically on the field data, it's a different story. Wait, is anybody else who wants to share anything, any thoughts on the topics we discussed or anything else related to batteries? I would also have a bit of a shorter session today. So tip it below an hour, I'm just make sure we all have still our weekends. But yeah, if we do chime in now, anybody here on the panel or anybody in the audience, feel free to share any thoughts you might have.

46:00I think just going back to what Barath was saying, and apologies Barath, I lost my connection while she were talking. But were you speaking there in regards to sort of the manufacturing data of cells also? Yeah, so Simon, I was asking about how because when we are talking about battery manufacturing, we recently understood that the companies are taking data from different parts of manufacturing process to have a control over the manufacturing quality. So do you have any insights on how these data are taken and how these data can be useful to maintain a quality standard in battery manufacturing process line? Yeah, so I think an answer to that, Barath, is manufacturers have to be able to guarantee sort of the quality of the product. And as such, they'll have various different checkpoints. Now the manufacturers will decide sort of what checkpoints they have. And then they will use various manufacturing systems to capture that data. And then that data could be in the form of sort of it could be in the form of sort of anything that they've chosen, you know, temperatures, it could be sort of different sort of checkpoints through the material process. And then all that information, huge amounts of data will be stored.

47:32And it's more of a, it could be proactive as in, you know, if there's machine learning in there, or it could be sort of reactive, you know, if there's a problem that can go back and identify sort of areas where that problem may have occurred within the process. And if that answers your question in sort of a broad aspect. Yeah, yeah, Christopher, that's really cool. But I want to understand more about the chemistry perspective of the data, because we can understand how the process works, assembly works. But when you are coming to anode slurry or cathode slurry, or how to maintain those quality standards and parameters, I like, because that's quite interesting, because when we are talking this, they talk about twin manufacturing process through data things. So that's really interesting. But that is, there is no quite good information on the net also. So yeah, looking for those kind of information. Yep. So even with sort of the mixes and the slurries, the electrolytes, you know, there'll be various checks out there, they do to confirm that that materials up to the standard they expect it to be.

48:54And then, you know, you have 11 different sort of checks, you could have checks on income and quality, or you could have sort of in process quality checks. Yeah, that's, that's great. So, but really, I just want to see how these data are generated and how they are creating algorithm out of this data to maintain the quality. That's really an interesting thing. Maybe for next battery, Dave Simon, we should also try to get these kinds of data as well. The my solution. Absolutely. No, thanks for thanks for sharing. And no, I mean, yeah, I think it's a fascinating, like traceability across the supply chain is a big topic. And I think maybe we know some good players on all kinds of different, you know, areas, but really filling the entire, you know, and then, yeah, like fill it all the way through. And of course, the battery pass on things, we'll be trying to do that. But it's definitely not trivial. And yeah, especially when things change.

49:54Like, you know, the shape or composition and things like that. And Crystal, wonderful to see you. And Crystal, any thoughts on these topics or anything else? Yeah, I've been trying to find this paper, which I think you have already seen before, but it was like 10 ways to fool the masses with battery data. I cannot find it anywhere. But it's a really nice idea. And I know that you probably have seen it before, but it's a really nice short list of things that you can say about your batteries and your battery data, which are not always true. And then there's also this, I don't know if you have seen this, this is for more academic people, but there's also this like Cell Press has this standardized data reporting sheet for batteries, which before you publish your data, you can go and check through, have you done all the things that they require? And have you like expressed all the things in the paper before you publish it? Which is, I think it should be much, much more looked into it when it before you publish anything that you actually, your data is up to some date and up to some standards.

51:06I can try to share the Cell Press, but I'm also on the PC at the moment. So yeah. That'd be great. Yeah. If you want to share that, I would love to see. Crystal, fantastic to see you. Anything you want to share? Yeah. Nice to meet everyone. Yeah. So I just was going to talk a bit about Barath's question. So I will, I guess, preface this by saying I do not work for a battery manufacturer, but I am more in like a R and D type research group. So when we talk about, you know, quality of electrode films like cathode and anode slurries or dry fabricated materials, typically there are like some data analytics we can do or some type of initial testing that you do just to confirm whether or not your electrode film is of, you know, a particular quality. So for example, as soon as the electrode materials are all mixed together, then a lot of times we can do, you know, like SCM to immediately see the distribution of, you know, your active material particles. Then there are some means of determining if your electrode is going to have some kind of mechanical strength. So in some applications, you want your, you know, electrode film to be, I guess, rolled up on those, you know, rolls on your current collector. So you just want to make sure it's not going to fall apart and be too fragile. So there are some people who do like tensile testing and things of that nature. So I guess there are just some go-to tests that you can run to just ensure the quality of your film is okay. Before you ever start, you know, preparing electrodes and putting them into battery cells. So maybe, you know, I can give you some more insights offline and we can discuss further.

53:14Yeah, definitely. Thank you, Crystal. Yeah, that's really cool. But that's what I'm talking about because understanding the crystal structure, the morphology, and sometimes it is, you know, viscosity, sometimes it is tensile strength of the coating and there are hundreds of parameters to, you know, understand and maintain in the process. So it's really very interesting. I will definitely connect you offline to explore this topic more. Thank you. Yeah, because I mean, I guess, you know, microstructure of your electrodes is something that's really big, especially now that people are trying to go to more like, you know, solvent-free type methods and making electrodes or, you know, more environmentally friendly methods. So yeah, microstructure is really big and trying to get the quality of your microstructure to be superior to everything else that's out there is one of the big strategies. Yeah. Thank you so much. Fantastic. Thank you so much. I think we do really interesting insights. So thanks everyone for joining in. As I said earlier, also, I think there's also some great chat. I love this room chat. I think that's new. So yeah, it's really cool to see all these links. Thanks so much, Jules, for sharing all this great papers and resources. So I mean, definitely look there. Also be nice to meet you, Hossein. Happy to stay in touch. And as you mentioned, also via LinkedIn. I think that's often the easiest platform to kind of write. Very happy to stay in touch. Sounds like you do some really exciting things as well. So really, really happy to stay in touch. And also anybody who listens to this, as you know, this shows up as a podcast. So we have quite a few thousand listeners. So obviously, it's really exciting to just be in touch with you as well. Feel free to reach out to, you know, again, we're really here to have this conversation, exploring topics. And also looking at time, again, as I mentioned earlier today, let's keep it a bit more brief around an hour, which kind of leads me to do maybe a bit of an outlook for the coming months, because we do them at the moment once a month, you might do it more often again soon as well. But now it's once a month for now. And the next speaker, and it's already now live on Clubhouse, because I think it helps everyone to see what's coming. Next month, we're looking forward to a conversation with Dr. Tim Holme from the CEO of QuantumScape, who's doing lots of really exciting things. One of the quantum skip side also and data beyond that. And yeah, I think he has some really interesting stories to share.

55:42He's still figuring out the exact title and the exact topic of the session. But yeah, expect to be an engaged session then and for free to also invite anybody who shouldn't miss that session either. With this, I just want to say a really big thank you for everyone who joined us today. And as you know, the recording gonna be up in the coming days, if you want to share it with anybody. And also beyond that, always really fantastic to see you all. And very much looking forward to our next conversations either here on Clubhouse or outside. So thanks, everyone. And I wish you a wonderful weekend and speak soon.