Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Recent Battery Events

0:00Transcript

0:00Great, yeah, maybe we can get started and I assume some more people will join us a bit later. But yeah, I think, you know, a big, big welcome, maybe also my side to Battery Revolution. As you can see in the title, if you're on Clubhouse right now, it's our 51st session. So we just said 50 about a month ago. We have been running these sessions for a bit over a year now, or quite a bit over a year now. We did a weekly in the beginning, now we do about once a month, always on the first Saturday of the month. And we invite a range of different thought leaders in the battery field. We discuss all kinds of topics from solid-state to recycling, and everything in between. And yeah, today we have, we don't have a conversation starter, we don't have an external speaker, but we have us and we're also going to talk a bit about some recent events we went to. Because today, Mariam and I, we're going to co-host this and Mariam has been to the Hanover Messe about a month ago, I think now. And maybe there's any, you know, any takeaways, any thoughts you want to share from this man on this trip. And then also Mariam, Barath and myself, just getting back from the European Battery Show in Stuttgart, which also has been a very interesting event with lots of different battery stakeholders across the battery value chain. And yeah, we're also excited to share some thoughts on that too. And then also maybe Barath can also share any battery news because of course we are as battery associates, we're also summarizing a bunch of different battery news. And also we're interested in open conversations, anybody who has any thoughts, any questions as well.

1:29But yeah, maybe Mariam, maybe you want to kick us off if there's any thoughts from Hanover? Sure. I went to Hanover Messe about a month ago now. And what I, so Hanover Messe is one of the largest industrial trade shows. So the idea is that it brings together all of these exhibitors, across the boundaries of technology, but also industry. So there's a big, big focus on industrial technologies, but it's everything in one location. It's energy, there's R&D, there's IT, there's automation, there's cables and electrical, and there are 13 different very large halls. And so this is such a, you know, such a huge event. When I was doing a little bit of research before I went there, I realized that it's, it's been happening every single year since post World War II. So since 1947, it was meant to essentially spur some economic growth post-war in Germany. Germany. And it just ended up being a really successful event every single year. One thing I did want to bring up was that this year, Hall 13, there was a new sort of industrial focus that had never been there before, which was hydrogen and fuel cells.

3:01So that's what the hall was called. That was what the focus was. And hundreds of exhibitors from around the world just focused on hydrogen and fuel cells. And of course, wherever there's hydrogen, especially electrolysis, energy storage, there's going to be batteries and energy storage. So there's going to be an indirect focus there as well. So I went around actually this hall and I went around different halls. So I went to the automation and robotics hall as well. And the biggest thing I asked them was, what's your current challenge right now? So what's the challenge that you're most facing? Thinking that with this nascent and emerging applications of hydrogen and fuel cells, I'll hear things ranging from its technology, its manufacturing, its adoption, its education. There are a lot of different challenges that could present themselves. But what I heard consistently was hiring. We can't find the right talent. Talent is really hard to come by. Talent is really expensive. How do we train new talent?

4:15Especially for some of the jobs or roles where it's not as clear cut what the role is supposed to be doing. And so that was a very, very interesting learning and insight. And of course, it does apply in the same way to every business unit that they have, which includes batteries and energy storage. So that is a topic that I feel is not talked about as much as how do we recruit and train talent in these new emerging industries. Second learning and observation also is that Hanover Messies seem to be a trade show for decision makers. So it seemed like a place where deals got done. It seemed like a place where CEOs would actually, you know, be present. And it seemed like one of those shows where you would go there and every single sort of company that's in the space would go there and decision makers would make sure to meet up so that they can either close deals or start conversations. So it was also a learning. It wasn't so much an exhibition where you're exhibiting your technology. It's more a meeting of the minds.

5:41It's more community building. It's more sharing of knowledge. It's more knowing who's out there and what they're doing and more having that human connection. So those were some of my learnings from Hanover Messies. I thought it was a really interesting event. Definitely worth it that we had gone and it was in beautiful Germany. And so that too was a plus. What about you guys, Simon and Mariano Barrett? How was the battery show for you guys? Thanks for sharing, Mariano Barrett. And yeah, maybe Mariano Barrett can go in a second. Also, just one quick thing. Just also shared here on the channel, anybody who is on campus right now, the LinkedIn of MS. If you'll have another look there. We'll do the same with the battery show as well. Maybe Mariano, is there anything you want to start sharing on the European Battery Show in Stuttgart? Okay, Marian. Thank you, Simon. Yeah, the battery show in Stuttgart, as the name it is, it's focused on the supply of the battery in the battery value chain. For me, it came several news. I see a trend from the pharmaceutical industry coming to the for the machinery in the battery manufacturing, for the power and slurry, and also the chemical companies from the raw material. One example is POSCO Chemical that recently has this confirmed this from BASF and also from the coating part, PPG and others that came from the paint industry to the coating for the suppliers from the battery. And other suppliers are also from the thermal protection. Of course, integrators like the recent also Volkswagen and LEED is from China, integrator.

8:09And also very interesting also the casing. It was many, many suppliers from the casing of the packs. And for me, was like a new to see many that also offers a plastic casing with more resistance from the intrusion. So, thinking about to fulfill all the requirements. Also, there was presentations, several panels on the battery show. Myself, it was one on sodium-ion. Very interesting. The battery test, battery pack and cell suppliers and quality control, online management. Very important, this quality control. It was from Asian, but also from Germany and for all around Europe. And some also from US suppliers. In one part also was IT about traceability, like circular and data analysis, data analytics. And as you mentioned, Marianne, not that much in that in that in the battery show. It was for me, it was like it is a shortage of talent and knowledge and not that much institutions was on the battery show. There are a few topics that I don't see that the battery show was covered.

10:00One was that about the talent. Another was also the very, very few battery manufacturers. We saw some, but without a stand. Also, it was also colleagues from battery associates and also ambassadors. But without a stand, let's say, maybe it's also important for the battery show next year. That's also think about to having some battery manufacturers that also from the mining and refining. I don't remember that wasn't any supplier or any big company for mining and refining. And maybe it's too early. Also, I missed somehow the representation from the battery passport and battery pass. Because as we know, this is a fulfillment in the next years for the new regulation. But unfortunately, there wasn't any other. And yeah, for me, many startups, small business, also China and Korean companies. And very interesting. And also some of the suppliers that give the knowledge for me was like a surprise because there are like this recipe on the slurry of everybody manufacturers. And that's a specific providers. Or search you for slurry and give you the recipe.

11:48It was OK. That's nice that also someone helps on that. And it was from China. And for me, the last is that the next I saw it on the Internet is the 23rd and 25th of May 2023. I think for the battery sector, it's a key in Europe that show and that's fair. And yeah, for me, it's all. Thank you. Great. Thank you for sharing my honor. And I think some interesting observations also from different stakeholders. During the field, you mentioned pharmaceutical. Of course, we also have seen other industries being getting more involved in the battery industry. I think some of these developments are interesting also for some of the participants here and listeners who are curious, right? How can I enter the battery space? And we definitely have seen that, you know, there's a lot of knowledge in other sectors which can also be applied in the battery space. So interesting to see how this is moving. Bharat, would you like to go next?

12:54Yes, I mean, thank you so much for inviting for this talk. So this is a very interesting show. This is the first show which I'm going to a battery related kind of technology. I personally visited many styles in this battery show which is concentrated on the manufacturing of batteries. We know the manufacturing of batteries is one of the most toughest thing in the battery sector. And also, there are a lot of quality inspections to be done in the various process in the battery manufacturing. Right now, there are very limited companies are playing this battery manufacturing market. But I have seen a very good quality advancement, you know, having an internal inspection integrated with the manufacturing process. You know, I have seen as Mariona explained, many companies from pharmaceutical science who are handling the powders, they are optimizing their manufacturing technology which can help the battery industry to handle the powders, the raw materials. And also, I have seen some companies who have worked with the paper industry who measure the quality of the paper are now updating the technology.

14:00So, you know, they are bringing that technology into the coating industry in the battery sector in order to optimize the coating in the anode and cathode manufacturing. Like that, all the technology which is used in the primitive industries are transformed or they're recreated, restructured in a way that which they can be supported to the battery industry. That is very exciting because industry really knows what battery industry needs. And they are also trying to provide cutting edge solution to make the manufacturing in a very, you know, repeatable and reliable way. And also, I have seen quite a lot of interest in, you know, digital, digitalization of battery data in terms of manufacturing, you know, as Mariona also explained about various integrators in the space. Also, for example, in the battery manufacturing, when you talk about a very big manufacturing company, you have a lot of missions, not only from one supplier, you have various suppliers from various manufacturers. But it is possible, it should be that you want to make a very good model where you can integrate all the missions together inside a single company, you know.

15:03For example, if you have a mission from one company in calendering, if you have a mission from other company in aging, then the data is not transferred properly between this kind of missions and that. And then you can you cannot track the manufacturing process. So I have seen a lot of quite quality updates on integrating these kind of different missions in the battery line and also creating the digital twin of the manufacturing plant, you know. So it means that you can understand where you get the raw material, how the raw material process, temperature, Celsius, various parameters. I think the quality of the manufacturing is keep on getting increases. They are leveraging all sorts of technologies available in the market to make the batteries more safe, more sustainable, more reliable. So I really think that battery manufacturing is going to have a very big advancement in the near future. Already they have a very cutting edge technologies. But right now I'm seeing the companies who are putting, you know, quality tools inside the manufacturing process itself.

16:03So I think those are very interesting for me. Besides that, a lot of analytics companies and a lot of companies on testing as well, because the safety concerns in the Asian market is keep on increasing. But there are also the safety concerns are all there, you know, in US market, in European market. But we find we are recently we are also going through a lot of battery fires back in India and also in some Asian countries. And also the safety, you know, the cyclers and the battery quality inspection protocols and testing companies are also coming with innovative testing models. You know, very good testing models to test the battery and also very new updates on the system level. You know, the battery pack manufacturing, heat dissipation, immersion cooling technology. Wow, it's like a whole variety of substances. I can talk for the whole night, but I just want to stop here. But this is a very interesting show. But I think next year everyone should visit if you want to understand what happens in the battery industry.

17:01Thank you. Thank you very much. for sharing both. I think some interesting relations as well, like on the production side, of course, also kind of what was already mentioned by Mario Mariano and now Barath, about the talent. Right. One of these topics, of course, we're also quite, you know, quite close to our heart. And, you know, for the BatteryMBA and other program we're developing, I think we very much agree that this talent is a big topic and we see it ourselves as well. And, you know, it's all about attracting the best talent in the space. And, yeah, so we can see this, I think, quite, quite present in the industry right now. So, it's very lovely to see you. It's been a while. How are you? Any thoughts? Any questions? What has been said today? I see Mario there. Anyway, you've been... Mark, can you hear us? Mariam, can you hear us? Yeah, I can hear you. Mark and Basim, you both are muted.

18:30Yeah, I just have a- I'm side in the street, I'll be home in like 10 minutes, so I'm not sure if it's very clear- like not very clear sound, I can talk later. We can hear you clearly, it's up to you if now is not a good time. I mean if you will just hear me, it's okay, if it's not very clear, I can talk later, I'm okay. But I will talk now and then you can just let me know if it's not very clear. So I was lucky as well to be in the battery show, I will be quite sure. I think my main- like if I'm coming right, it's a battery show, for me at least. Now I moved from automotive to aerospace, so I'm focusing more into batteries in aerospace, in both vehicles like vertical type of fan landing and also conventional type of fan landing, where I work now. I saw that there is almost nothing, it was only helicopter, if you know about this, it's a German company, vertical type of fan landing, electric plane.

19:29It was the only company there and us, where I work now. There was nothing really, even talking to several battery suppliers, talking from cables, battery suppliers, cell manufacturers, there is no one really looking at this space. So it was very interesting that this space, while it's going to grow massively I believe, in the next 10 years, there is no one really focusing on that. Yes, number one. Number two is that I expected a lot of companies to talk about dry coating, investing in dry coating, but unfortunately I didn't see anything. I don't know if Mario or someone else saw something, but I didn't really see anything, and I was wondering why the companies are not investing in dry coating. They talk a lot about drying machines, etc, but they don't talk about dry coating. I'm not sure if it has some financial or political reasons why they don't really focus on that. And then the third point, I think what maybe Mariano touched about, I just mentioned from the beginning, related to hiring.

20:37I didn't see anything related to balance and trying to affect the influence. That's all for me, for that I will really join later in some discussion. Thank you. Thank you so much Basim for those insights. Mark, any events that you've attended that you'd like to speak to? It may be that Mark is not online. Mark, can you hear us? If you can, you're muted. Yeah, I think Mark is, oh, he's back. Hello Mark. Yes, okay. Yeah, so I went to the Fastmarkets Conference in Arizona. And it was based on primarily lithium, a lithium value chain. So there was similar to that maybe the battery show with a lot of decision makers, people who, you know, were mid-career and above professionals there. A large international presence, people from obviously Europe, Japan, Korea, China. There were companies, not as many battery manufacturers, but a lot of say, resource owners, say for mines, start-ups, say for battery chemistry, there were battery cyclers there. There were car companies, there were energy companies looking to invest in the battery field.

22:42We'll figure out how they can get in the field because they see the tsunami coming and they want to figure out how do they get involved. That was a big trait there. Also, it was, there was a large amount of like market analysis, a lot of finance people there, supply chain experts or professionals from these various companies. A lot of discussion of ESG, LCAs, panels with that. So although the primary focus was, was lithium, other metals were discussed. It was important to the value chain. So those were two interesting talks I can think of talking ahead of. John Miller talking about government actions in the United States. How the United States maybe isn't doing enough to support the battery value chain. And then I liked Barry Jackson's talk about nickel, American. And Michael Schmidt from Germany, he's like a government geologist there. So the interesting takeaway that he was saying, so the German government says, no internal combustion engines in 2035. But he's saying there's no basis for that number, meaning the numbers don't add up.

24:20You can't add up to that number any way you look at it. At the same time, there's, I challenge him on this. The battery passport, the EA battery directive are going to limit supply of Chinese batteries because they're high carbon footprint. So yeah, he had no answer for that. And he was obviously very confused by the government action. And he was a based on any mathematical county. So yeah, it was a very good show, very professional. The Fastmarkets Lithium Conference. And yeah, thank you. Thank you. That's very interesting. Mark, what did you say the name of the show was again? The Fastmarkets Lithium Conference in Phoenix, Arizona. The Fastmarkets Lithium Copper. Conference. Conference, got it. That's wonderful. I'd never heard of that conference. So that's, that's a really great insight. I see Michael here. Michael, what events have you attended lately? Hello, Michael. Hello, Michael. Hello. It's always the muting issue. Yeah, the button usually don't function well. Is it possible to refresh the room for a while because I really got lost in the conversation.

26:05Yeah. Yeah. Michael, can you repeat that? Could you refresh the room for a while because I was in the toilet just now and I do not, I got, I entered halfway into this conversation. Hello? Okay. So, so you'd rather, someone else go? Quick recap. No, I think he just wants to know what we talked about. Oh, I need that. So we just spoke about two events we attended. So, Mariam attended the Hannover Messe and Mariam Barth and myself and Basim as well just attended the UPM Battery Show in Shuttgart. Mark just attended the Fastmarkets, Lithium Conference in Phoenix, Arizona. So the question was for Mariam, for you Michael. Is there any event you attended recently? Anything you find interesting? Okay. So I did not attend any European events or any battery events, but I did attend a few startup events and they talk a lot about EV and its future. And I do think that, I think I wish I can attempt a bit more, have a bit more technical understanding of the EV sector because it seems to have a lot of potential and is the best way forward given the geopolitics.

27:37And also given that there is increasing demands for such infrastructures in very untapped markets like Southeast Asia, you know, especially when a lot of our infrastructures do need electrifications to, you know, to do really well, you know. But I think the lack of infrastructures and the lack of products in this field kind of kills it in a way. We are still using fossil fuel to power a lot of our infrastructures. So I am just hoping that maybe if there's any projects or any companies here who are looking to do EV manufacturing in this region, you know, do come, you know, and I'm more than happy to link you up with a few partners because I do think that this is a good opportunity to actually be a big player in this sector and in this region. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Michael, for sharing that. I see Kate. Kate's next. Kate, can you hear us? Hi. Hello. This is Kate. I did not attend the conference, but I can share some applications of the storage in the Taiwan and Japan if that is interesting for you.

29:18Or we can just hear others maybe that they attend the European Battery Show here. I mean, there is a topic everyone brought up, which is battery manufacturing. So it could be interesting to hear if you have any thoughts on that for sure. Okay. I think because I work for the smart grid area. So recently in Japan, in Taiwan, we are the for the application site in Japan that storage battery are applied in the school because they use the auditorium in school for the micro grid. And for the purpose of disaster like earthquake, you know, and the typhoon. So that the micro grid were used, equipped with the storage. Then just they can provide the power for the whole community around the school. So that's in Japan and that is already applied in hundreds of schools in Japan. And in Taiwan, I think we start to think about quite similar application, but that is for war because we have some concern of, you know, war. So, so we are start to thinking about the same, the same location from Japan to use, maybe to use the school and we apply storage batteries there for, for the, for the emergency, emergency case.

31:07That is what I think is the, maybe the most popular application here. And because of this emergency concern, then the cost, the cost efficiency is not that important here. So I think that will be a first part that, that battery can be go, can, into the market in these two areas. Thank you. I share here. Thank you so much, Kate. I know that the battery show is quite a technical conference. So compared for instance, to the Hanover Messe, it seems also that the conference that Mark had attended, the Fast Company one, was also quite technical. So, Baris, Simon, Mariano, from, from your experience at the battery show this year, any sort of major technical talk about the battery show? So, what are the, the major technical topics that were brought up? Any technical, you know, talks or conversations? Um, in the exhibition or so on that we can speak to here? I, from my side, as I mentioned, sodium-ion, it was in a panel.

32:13 It was like a very interesting panel. So, what are the things that we can do here? And, from my side, as I mentioned, sodium-ion, it was in a panel. It was like a very interesting panel. They are focusing, first of all, on the two and three wheelers. with Europe. They think that the best option for them is coming for the, for the Indian market, starting with Europe, but then concentrated in the Indian market. And, from my side, as I mentioned, sodium-ion, it was in a panel. It was like a very interesting panel. It was like a very interesting panel. It was like a very interesting panel. It was like a very interesting panel. It was like a very interesting panel. They are focusing, first of all, on the two and three wheelers. They think that the best option for them is coming for the, for the Indian market, starting with Europe, but then concentrated in the Indian market. Also very interesting from the three of the panels, it was that in general, sodium-ion needs to fulfill with the same cost perspective of LFP.

33:07This is also one interesting understanding of what they do. More technical things, of course, sodium-ion has this availability to have easily raw material. But on the other hand, nowadays, the suppliers are not in place. And that is also, from one hand, it is like a good, it seems like it's easy to afford the raw material. But on the other hand, the suppliers are not in place, all the suppliers. But from the perspective of the thermal and also the cyclers, they are competing with LFP. They are looking about the same number of cycles, the same number of thermal diffusion, let's say. And thinking about the idea is that the thermal stability, they say that it is better than LFP. That's the panel, they say. And coming on the server, of course, you can choose anode cathode differentiated on the sodium-ion also. Then it depends on what you choose, what are the specs. But this sodium-ion, it was for me interesting thinking about the smart grid and focusing in two and three wheelers.

34:48Thank you. Thank you for sharing, Mernot Barrett. Is there anything you would like to add? If not, maybe I can go on two things I found quite interesting. So one is on the software level. I was able to meet with someone from Breathe Technology who I've been calling for some time. They're also based in the UK, London, the startup. I think probably now two years old or so. And they're trying to use software, you know, for BMS software essentially to improve on the one hand the charging speeds for batteries. And on the other hand, also the lifetime. I think they got some like 20% or so improvements and also for example charging speed, etc. And they're working. And they're working. I think what they made public there was like working with like VMAX, like high performance vehicles as well as like Wattenfall and their platform. And not Wattenfall, sorry. It wasn't Wattenfall. It was another one. I may remember later on. But yeah, one of the known battery companies.

36:01And I think it was quite interesting to see what you can do only with software, right? So there's no, no, nothing to change on the BMS. It's literally just the software. And they like some algorithms to put on it. They're not even developing the firmware. They're literally just doing the small kind of, you know, charging profiles actually. They're kind of improving and they get quite a bit of improvement there. I think this is interesting. And then another one, by the way, I realized now was Vata. Vata, like the cell producer also known for making a lot of cells for consumer electronics, etc. But also the larger ones now. Another one I found quite interesting was kind of also just seeing a lot of the high performance applications. You know, there's Williams Engineering, for example, who do a lot of the, I think, Doe Formula E. And they work on Xtreme E and a lot of the Jaguars and a lot of interesting vehicles. Just seeing also electric motorbikes to see like, you know, the max of performance you can get to.

37:02Another thing of interesting was talking with a few of the recyclers. There were not that many recyclers. A few were walking around. There was one also Stan, one of our former Battery Bay participants, two from Portrait Recycling. But also, I think there were some other recycling companies who are more in the lead acid right now. Are looking to enter also the lithium iron recycling market. And trying to understand that. I found it quite fascinating what they're thinking about. Another one also we have been talking to someone from American Battery Factory in the US. There were some exciting plans there as well on LFP. So we scale up LFP in the US. It has been interesting as well to meet with them. And yeah, I think in general, like a lot of people would be walking around where you probably wouldn't see the stands of. Like VMAG and these kind of other exciting companies we know about. Yeah, I think a lot of motivation to really, I think, push a bit of what's possible still.

38:04So I think the two trends are on the one hand, I think we're still looking at higher and higher performance. We see like new cooling systems and like, you know, these new algorithms, etc. On the other hand, of course, also to speak, you know, the question of scale and costs. Of course, we have seen a massive cost increase over the last year. So for lithium and cobalt and nickel. And like 500% for lithium, for example, alone. And we see also like other technologies kind of going more to LFP. And we have seen, I think, also other players really looking to how much LFP will be scaled up. You know, numbers like 40% anticipation, for example, for the market. are floating around. But of course, there's many different opinions. And we also have heard different thoughts on this. But yeah, I think overall a lot of interesting conversations on these topics as well. Maybe on this point, sorry. Okay, Simon, in this part, because I also met a company, I think you were mentioning the brief company.

39:12It is very interesting that the UK government, it seems like the UK government is pushing so much for amplification, because they had like a special section for small startups, only from UK, including like brief. And there is one company called Brill Power, where they have like a DC-DC on a module level to try to customize how the cells will age over lifetime. And they can really customize the voltage and current output of the, if you can call it module. And several. But I was a bit, I mean, I'm a bit concerned with a lot of the promises I saw there, especially with State of Health and with, especially from Bree, for example, talking about like C++ algorithm that can optimize charging. They didn't really show much. I talked to them personally for quite some time, but it was more like, okay, we could this block, it will monitor the health online. And we will be able to run our model and new software and then it will enhance charging.

40:17But I didn't really feel like much, maybe I wouldn't talk to them more to understand more. And also the other companies where they made like big promises, like 60% higher energy on power. And this kind of promises, I didn't really like that kind of very high promises. I don't know if you saw something like that. Yeah. No, I think that's a fair point. I think I haven't seen the data either. They didn't show that. They might have some reasons for it. But yeah, I think, I mean, there's also a bunch of startups. I think it's interesting to see that they have, you know, at least they have no customers they can show because of course they, if they're allowed to show these customers and the customers will also have approved it. I think they have probably a larger pipeline, I would hope for them at least. Yeah, I think that's, that's of course, always a bit of a challenge as a startup, right? That's to know how far they actually are.

41:13I think it's interesting observation, Basim. I think UK, you're right, has been quite, you know, strong because there was another event was taking place another expo in the UK at the same date. And there was a lot of presence. So we have seen Britishvolt also had quite a big stand. We have seen the Northumberland. We also met with them like the region where Britishvolt is building our plans to build the factory, first gigafactory. So we have seen them present as well. Then you mentioned this kind of UK pavilion in a way with lots of different startups. So I think that's been, I think, quite a concern, right, to show, you know, the presence. Of course, as I've seen in the news, right, it's not too old that the plant lithium battery capacity in the UK right now is about, I think, half or so of what is predicted to be needed to, to, to, to, to further on demand from, from the automotive industry for 2012, 2030.

42:07We'll be talking like 68 or so gigawatt hours worth 120. Maybe I got the numbers a bit wrong, but I think in this ballpark. Another region also I've seen was Finland. I'm not sure if I've seen the same, but also, I think also had this larger kind of delegation, like stand. And I think, I mean, I remember correctly, Myram, you also were there was the Canadian delegation, right? In the Hannover Mesa? So I guess this was also a push. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there was a huge Canadian delegation there in three different halls. Yeah. And I had, I had attended the battery show in Detroit last year, for instance. And based off what I'm hearing from you guys' experience, the battery show in Detroit, in, in the US, was really, really, really focused on a deep dive into the different technical topics related to smaller scale batteries. So we, the conversations were not really centered around a lot of industrial scale, or EV, you know, EV scale batteries.

43:18A lot of the technical talks were talking about performance on the smaller scale, new materials, different testing and spectroscopy methods. And, and very, very little talk about policy, very little sort of, you know, conversation around, at least in the technical talk, around the industrial scale, performance of things and so on. And so that, that seems to be interesting also how Europe versus North America, North American battery show have different focuses, it seems. And then the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of the EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of EU is the impact of a lot of momentum there at the moment as well.

44:28I heard that apparently from next year, the plan also to have the U.S. battery show in a different venue because they have more demand than what they can fulfill from a size perspective. Here in the Stuttgart one, there are three major holes where the battery show is happening. But I think they could probably also extend at some point in the future if the demand increase. We looked at the end because we also have been thinking about getting a boost for next year potentially and we have seen that a lot of them already have been booked out to existing exhibitors who have been there this year as well. Maybe also one thing on these kind of different, I think it's interesting to think about what regions do a stronger push or where also governments are supporting to have booths and these kind of delegations. We have seen now the UK was here, Finland, I'm not sure if Mayanna Barrett or Basim, you saw any other one at the European Battery Show?

45:29Any other kind of government delegation? Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if, you know, I'm living in Sweden and I'm working in Sweden and I was a little disappointed about the Swedish delegation. In fact, it was only one company where it was having really a proper standard. It was not even a company. It was more like a governmental organization. It's called Nordic something and we talk about sustainability and electric vehicles and batteries in the Nordic countries. But for example, I met like other delegations of Northvolt and I met them there but they didn't have a booth. And it was only Northvolt and my company which is also a startup. So I expected really much more from Sweden when it comes to that and it was a little bit disappointing to see that there is no one really there. Especially like Sweden is really making a big push and Northvolt and Volvo Cars and K-Star and Volvo Group and Scania, all of those big companies we are pushing towards but not being there in the battery show is a big delegation which is a big disappointing for me.

46:41In my opinion, as you mentioned Baasin and Simon, there wasn't much region that's supporting battery suppliers ecosystem. I think it's really important because you attract, the idea is to attract the suppliers. If you want to have in a battery manufacturing one or more modern ones, the suppliers are key and the region could help on all of that. Of course, if they are coming to the fair and there are many, many suppliers and this is a kind of a possibility to them to attract, as you mentioned. Yeah, I think it's all the ecosystems now needs to be in place within several countries in Spain, in Angria, in French, in many countries, Germany, of course, Sweden, Finland. But let's say this is key for having a battery manufacturing with the less carbon footprint possible. Let's say having your suppliers nearby, this is very, very important on that. Of course, it comes with all. I say suppliers from the entire value chain. That's the idea. Thank you. That's a very good point.

48:17So maybe if we can look into a bit of a glass ball, what should it maybe if we look at the next year, what kind of companies or not companies, regions, we think we might could do a push, right? Or where would we hope there will be delegations from or like, you know, stands and things like this from what regions will be hopeful next year. Any thoughts in the room? I think one thought, which I hope is more of a hope, is that more companies look at electrification of aerospace. So, I'm still disappointed of that. Still, the companies are not trying to do that. It's a big market. So I hope from, especially battery manufacturers, from a cell manufacturer, I don't think they need to do anything special in the same cell. Like, maybe a bit higher of the failure rate from cell manufacturing and quality. But from a battery integrators and battery manufacturers, I hope they will focus on that a little bit more.

49:23It's a big market and there is a lot of things that they can gain there. A lot of startups where you can make a lot of good business and the second one is maybe a little bit more software. I didn't see their focus. I just saw some old startups promising some things. I didn't see really any innovative idea. Even the idea of DC, DC and a module and smart cells. I saw that maybe a year ago. And even patent idea. I know that the idea is already patent by another company. So I really hope for more big software solutions and a bit more focus in aerospace in the next year. Thank you. Maybe we can do one of these sessions on aerospace in the future. I think it's an interesting aspect as well. Michael, would you like to connect? Maybe my other one? Yeah, I think there was a recent news by the UN Environmental Conference, the Ocean Conference. They're going to look towards banning deep-sea mining.

50:27And as I know, a lot of the metals that's needed for electrification and EV is in can also it's also in deep-sea mining as well. So and also given that the demand I mean, I do agree with most of you is the demand for it will always be high in many countries. but the challenge is supply and decarbonisation of electrification because also there will be more crackdown on greenwashing. So I think one thing will be decarbonisation of the EV and the electrification sector and also dealing with supply chain disruption because one of the unintended consequences of the Russian embargo and ban was that a lot of the metals like nickel also came from Russia mines. So I'm thinking like how countries are trying to balance the demand for electrification infrastructure and environmental impact of the mining and extraction of materials for this industry. Yeah, I would really like to see more manufacturing capabilities even on the cell level and you know in different hubs around the world.

52:09So in Europe there should be a hub for manufacturing of batteries and in North America you know there should be options at least for large scale manufacturing to meet that sort of demand that we need. I think supply chain is such a huge issue that I do believe there is a push there are targets but I'm not sure if there are any sort of financial commitments or a consolidated or centralized way to solve the problem at the moment and so the upstream side of things I think is just such a huge blocker to the downstream. If I may include the same as from the very first is the talent. I think the regions that lack from talent they need to have a push on include themselves as a good region to live and attract talent with other topics but I think it's good that the region also include that in his pipeline to give this in general to the suppliers and to the talent to the right talent that is one thing and another thing from the regions is also it's a lack of in the mining refining sector there is a lack of the good understanding of the best practice of mining !

53:51Let's say if I am living in Europe and I know nearby it could be one possibility to having a mining let's say in Spain lithium now in Portugal and Spain but there are not only lithium there are more than lithium then okay if nearby if you didn't understand what are the best practice that they can do if it's an open pit what are the recovery of the land and all this full process that needs to be best practice this also needs to be given by the region of course also by the mining companies but the region also is very important on that because the region is like the relation between the individuals and the companies that's also one thought on that thank you thank you for sharing earth market anything you would like to add yeah actually is that like mar said the conference in detroit talk a little bit about the policy because we are also interested that in the utility part is there more clear specified regulation for the battery to join the energy market for example not only the electricity not only the power but also the ancillary service the frequency support and how do they make the role of battery more clear and allow them to join the market because if it is clear and the price is clear then the supply side will be more confident to join that market is that in detroit the conference you mentioned thank you it was in detroit last year it was the battery show the north american battery show okay thank you thank you as well yeah and also maybe kate i think there is another north american battery show taking place between the 14th and 16th well that's last year not this year it's between the 13th and 15th of september taking place also again in the u.s of course we shouldn't forget it's also our own battery day taking place on the 23rd of september so that's also something you all invited to and also which is free to attend to be really exciting covering all the different time zones from the Asian and Oceania time zones to the European focus to the US focus so look out for that as well maybe quick I was mark anything you want to quickly add if you have anything otherwise I can also share my final thoughts on that if not maybe I just could jump in so I think for me also I mean there's a lot of interesting things you already said and I would agree that's all fantastic topics I think one thing I would see for next year in May is because by then the European patch regulation should gone through which I think will be exciting and I think will also mean a lot of the new companies will have to try to fulfill them and comply with them so I think the battery passport and topics like that also with the battery lines but also the German battery pass and things I think there'll be a lot of talk about that I definitely could see that being a topic in May next year another participation from India I think there are also going to be a push on this regards maybe there is some delegation from there or something I think could be exciting as well to see what's going to happen there for the next year next to many other regions where the development happening great I think that will be it from my side I think also day we will keep a shorter in light of the very nice weather here down in Lindau where a couple of us are also appreciating it's a weekend and maybe people want to get back to other things but yeah I just want to really big thank you from my side and maybe I can give it to Mariam to close it up for today maybe one last thing you can also listen to this on the battery insiders podcast if thank you all so much for joining us on this beautiful Saturday so just to note in the chat Simon had left the links to the events we were discussing today which is the first was the Hannover Messi the second is the battery show in Europe and the third was the fast market lithium conference thank you guys so much again and I hope to see you at our next podcast and have a great rest of your day