Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - 50th Episode Special

0:00Transcript

0:00Great. I think today we might have a bit of a smaller session, but that's absolutely fine. You know, we'd be grateful for everyone calling in. The idea is today we have like more like community-based session talking about some of our highlights. It can be highlights, you know, of any of our conversation. I look through like, you know, some of the past talks and the topics we had. Hello, Simon. Welcome back, everybody. Thanks for joining us to all of our listeners. And we can also talk about, you know, the highlights we have in the battery sector. I mean, it just happened even just the last week, I feel, was all of these different, you know, acquisitions and new developments. I think there's been lots of interesting updates. We can go over them as well. Oh, it's a very proper summer here in New York. It is just yesterday, so there might be a few things going to come from there as well. But also hot. Today it's sunny, but I've heard that August is what I should really prepare for mentally.

0:47Yeah, that's a bit of the plan for today. I find myself often on the Mogi days, so if fate will have it my way at all, I'll get a break from that. Buggy summer in New York. It's a busy day, it feels like. It's summertime. Time will tell. But I'm really, really glad. I'm grateful for everyone here. Shut up today. Yeah, I know. Check back. Check back on that. Do you have anything you want to add to it? Who knew? What will the weather be? If Chris can start, because I have something at home. I'm coming at home. Some of that travel has involved some battery conferences. Actually, for both of us. How funny. The conversation with our crew on Clubhouse was focused on the European Battery Show. So please tell us, what were your highlights for that conversation? It sounds like it was an incredible time. Battery Associates folks got together. That's really exciting. Always. Maybe one day we'll be able to do that.

1:44It was unbelievable. The coverage that's being covered. Nice working relationship. Second life through to battery CFP, silicon anodes, hydrogen versus batteries. I mean, there's a wealth of sort of discussions that a lot of them I've been there for a lot. Sorry. Some of them I haven't been. I think one of the key ones that I liked was one of the recent ones. And that was the quantum skip where we had Tim Holme. And he covered quite a large area in such a short space of time. No, I can absolutely test this, Christopher. I think this was a really interesting one. There's lots of facts and lots of insights, which I really much enjoyed. I think it was quite nerdy. You know, we tend to do this sometimes, but I think it was a very insightful session. And yeah, I was super grateful to him to share some of these great insights from their side of the development. As for the data side, et cetera, and also in solid-state.

2:44Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the data side was, I thought he was quite open with some of the information discussed, but it shows you how much the data is needed and how much of a tool it is when you can take your data and sort of convert it into knowledge and predict sort of how things are going to work out. Absolutely. Great. Mark, maybe over to you. Is there any thoughts you have? Any, you know, favorite highlights of the last sessions? Anything else you would like to add? Hello, Mark. Did we lose you? No worries. Then maybe let me jump in here until you come back, Mark. And I very much agree with you. I think, Christopher, the one on solid-state was very fascinating with Tim Holme. But also really, for example, just looking back, right, like last week we had one on, or like last month, not last week, we had on solid-state batteries, not on Second Life batteries, which also one very fascinating.

3:44Sorry, Mario, maybe you can meet yourself. Thank you. It's really fascinating session, I think, also on Second Life and especially talking about some of the numbers, because I think that's often, you know, something we overlook, you know, often there's like some concepts we find all really fascinating. You know, Second Life, I think it's a very interesting idea. Benchmark, Benchmark, Minerals Intelligence hosted a US-based conference on battery gigafactory, which I, it was really interesting. Which is super valuable. And by the end of 48 hours of that, I was like, dang, I can really talk about anodecather a lot. But it was really, you know, in the name, Minerals. So the focus was a lot more on the granular level of literally like, here's a session on nickel. Here's a session on cobalt and lithium. Speaking of which, I know Mark attended one in Arizona that was focused on lithium specifically. This one was also interesting. We didn't have the same diversity in terms of like, you know, as far of a range, you know, like pharmaceuticals there.

4:47There were a few companies that, you know, who were kind of networking and introducing themselves as, yes, we work on X. We don't really, this may not totally seem so relevant to batteries, but this is what we're doing. So we had a little bit of that, but a lot of suppliers, a lot of battery space, and I think this is a really nice session. You know, I think one thing our Clubhouse crew really drove home was that there's a big emphasis on talent. And that did come up at the conference as well. But I will say that I think our biggest takeaway was supply chain. You know, just, and I'm, it's curious to talk, I'm curious about this, right? Thank you. Yours was in Germany. As Chris, I saw so many insights from the Patriot Revolution. I want to highlight some of them. You know, these conferences are global, but I mean, in the case of Benchmark, Minerals Intelligence, they were definitely less focused. And, you know, just, where do our gigafactories stand relative to, you know, like, Asian gigafactories, specifically those in China, in terms of, like, just output and scale.

6:00So really interesting, fun, or interesting, I think, specific tidbit here is that this is one of the few, few issues in the U.S. that, um, is that truly requires and receives bipartisan support. And so we actually had senators from both sides of the aisle, uh, participate in this, whether it was through an in-person or a video visit, which I thought was really interesting. And, um, just, you know, kind of telling that, okay, but where priorities about this may go, of course, both sides' priorities may be different. But it took, um, but we did have representation from Michigan, from Nevada, from the IC world. And, uh, yeah, also he mentioned, uh, that's on the Olympic Games. It was a car in the 72. But I would say Michigan, Nevada, came up, and then, of course, leaders in the U.S. Senate, who focus on this, lead the committee on energy matters. So that was really exciting to see. Uh, we also had government and policy officials from a lot of big companies, whether, you know, GM, Audi, like, OEMs, and, of course, Tesla was there as well.

7:18Um, so that was really exciting to have insight from. And, yeah, I think, like, overall, a really fantastic event that got people together. You're so right. Finally feeling. And with the automobility, as we see now, with Tesla Neo. I don't mean to say we're post-pandemic. It's safe to thank COVID, but it was nice to be able to get people together. And also, uh, that was one of the highlights. I don't know if it's really big. That's from Hans Peters. A good few hundred people, four or five hundred. Also, another highlight I love. And so, fantastically done. And just a bit ironic, I will end on this. That, or wrap my point up, that it was a UK organization hosting a conference on the US Gigafactories. And this chemistry agnostic. And us realizing, oh, we need to figure a lot out. So that was just a bit funny. Whatever that did hit throughout the event. Asking if is it that on the battery revolutions, is it that real or not?

8:15Oh, yes. We know now that it's becoming real on the black mass. And also very important is chemistry diagnostic. We know also on that, very important that it comes with a scrap on the battery manufacturing. Very, very important because it's also one of the possibilities for second life of recycling. Then it came from Faraday Institution. One presentation that the end of life and recycling. And explain very detailed the second life and waste recycling. And also ask for all the audience this, who is going to pay for recycling, no? And that was one very interesting. Because from Faraday, the idea is one year ago. Yes, please do. Join us. Mark your calendars. You have no regulation from recycling and second life. And you would love any support that we could get. We know that we have gathered a good number of people. And, but as we all know, more you listen, more you'll be curious about batteries, more you'll want to learn. And so we really just love to pull our people in to get these conversations going.

9:46And very, very interesting also. Just because as we discussed in this session alone, it's not just a battery industry. It's very across the EVs. One is the demand side to create a market. The second is the policies in the industrial side battery supply chain. And so we're hoping that we can help push forward the budget and gain traction in that area. With sustainability and low carbon batteries and singularity. And with that, we'll wrap it up for today. And we'll look forward to next time, Simon and Ian, things on what our topic might be. We know Julia Poliskanova also from BatteryMBA. This cohort. And it came also from Maggie and Charlie Parker. Maggie Taliska explained that this second life needs to become a reality before recycling. Well, if you're listening, keep an eye out. And we hope you'll join us next time on Clubhouse and later on Spotify. Maggie explained how the lead acid batteries has in US a huge market for recycling. And this needs to be almost with the same idea from the lithium-ion.

11:01And it came from Battery Scale-Up using AIS from Mariam Awara. This is very, very important. If you want to have scaling, that you have also the tools for characterization for scale. That's this spectroscopy impedance that Pulsanic has. And also you need to have for battery innovation, these tools. Then very interesting also was the day in July, one year ago, that the EU signed that after 2035, no more ICUs would be sales. And that this was one year ago, very, very important topic also for the EU, for us. And after it came to the AII mobility in Munich. I remember one because we were there, all the core from us, from Battery Associates. And it was very interesting to see how all the OEMs are focusing on the electromobility. But it was not EII mobility, but not only from electromobility, but all the OEMs were focusing on that. We see that on Hype. And it came from the solid-state battery deep dives, as you mentioned also with Steelhome.

12:33But also our white paper from Battery Associates, solid-state battery, that it came, what are the challenges on that? And when, what are the, what are the challenges on the solid-state battery? And for me, and it's the last, I also love the Jill Pastana from Intersectional Innovation. Explain how important is the support of diverse people and contribute innovation technology. And also support not having harassment, discrimination. And also include somehow that with a female in the working group, you increase productivity. And that is for real, because it's like many companies have seen that. We think also it's very, very important that. And okay, thank you for having me. I'll jump in now because I was biking down a mountain when he first called me Simon. So my, my exciting highlights from the last year are both the startups. I think that was sort of a way to interact with the, you know, what's coming up. Some of the ideas and some of the new innovations that are going to potentially come to the battery sector.

14:06And I really enjoyed that. And I also enjoyed the discussion of Second Life. It's the whole market is still in play, both from the, the physical, you know, how, how do we get the battery? What do we pay for it? Do they pay us? What type of chemistry is LFP versus NMC, et cetera? But then of course the, the testing, you know, how to say, okay, is this, what is the state of this battery? State of health? How do we quantify that? You know, battery passport, of course, with the, the EU. It's a very interesting discussion. And then obviously QuantumScape is a very exciting company and we'll see how it scales their technology. That's still a discussion. And of course hype hype is a big challenge because all these things happening in the battery space claim very strong, make strong statements. And because they have to, they're trying to seek money in many cases or trying to seek investors and, and connections. So they have to make strong statements.

15:16And it's, if you're not technically trained or understand those markets, it's hard to discern fact from fiction or potentially fact or potentially fiction in that situation. So, yeah, it's been an exciting year. It's a nice way to learn in person live rather than, you know, watching a recording of people in a very sort of, you know, if you go to a webinar, sometimes it's very planned discussion where you already know what's going to happen. I think the clubhouse allows more interaction and more uncertainty, which is more exciting. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mark. And I agree. It's, it's always, you know, I would definitely remember a couple of conversations where they had no idea where we were going to go. And I think, but often that's, that has been quite fruitful and I think getting these different perspectives. Also, I think one thing, you know, from a personal perspective, I really enjoyed as well as, you know, having some amazing, you know, people joining as co-hosts, you know, I mean, you have been tremendous as well, all of you.

16:30And because I mentioned Bavia and Catherine and Maria, I'm really stepping up there as well. Something else, of course, to have all those amazing people, you know, sharing the insights in these, as conversation starters. And I think this has been very beneficial as well. When I look back, I think all of the early sessions, literally there was no topic. Just like, let's talk about batteries. We did it. I'm still amazed how this worked, you know, and I mean, even today, right? Like we don't have a fixed topic in this regard. And I think there's always something interesting to talk about, but also having all these amazing, you know, conversation starters has been, I think, very beneficial as well over, over the time. And yeah, I mean, this clubhouse as well, you know, I think we definitely have seen its full hype, I think, in, I don't know, maybe over a year ago or so, and felt like everyone was talking about it. And now it's, of course, much less, much, you know, not that busy anymore as before, but I think it still works well to record some of these sessions as well.

17:22Great. I think also today we might do a bit of a shorter version, but I think maybe we can just do, also talk a bit about, you know, some, what are some of the things we're still missing? What are these topics we feel like we really have to talk about and we haven't gotten a chance to it yet? Because essentially it would be really interesting to put these up as well. And very good to have Crystal here as well. Good to see you, Crystal. Very nice to have you. We were just talking a bit about what are some of our highlights from past sessions? So if there's anything or any topic you really enjoyed or something you feel that's still missing, we should talk a bit more about it. Crystal, if you feel like sharing anything for free to unmute yourself as well. And otherwise you can also listen in however you prefer at this point in time. Yeah. Thanks for including me in this discussion.

18:08Absolutely. Is there anything you want to share, Crystal? Like any, we just essentially, Maiano, so Mark and myself, we just spoke about some of our, you know, favorite topics. The discussion we had in the last 50, because there's been 50 discussions now. Is there anything you would like to add to it or is there anything which stood out to you? I don't know. You know, I really like the whole bit about recycling, battery recycling, repurposing, reusing. I have a pretty big interest in this, especially now that I work for a floral polymer company, because it's interesting to see how potentially battery binders are going to play a role in battery recycling in the future. You know, how do we get those materials back out? So it's quite interesting. The recycling topic is pretty important to me. Absolutely. It's good to have Mark with us. Absolute recycling expert here. Great. Is there any topic, Christopher, Mark, Maiano, Crystal, any topic you feel like we haven't really talked about much yet?

19:10Something we should talk about more in the future? On Clubhouse, maybe the topic of all the minerals and all the new projects that are coming from the lithium, also cobalt in Finland. There are many, many projects that are pop up and very important for the mining sector and refining. And also, as we know, it comes from the needs of this regional supply chain that we need now to fulfil with the EU regulation. But in general, also in the US, that it's very important. But maybe here on Clubhouse, it was not that hype. We can do more and more with thinking about the news that are coming and inviting maybe some new, as you mentioned, startups. Or not startups, if not, and it's only startups, but thinking about these new projects that are coming. And okay, that's my idea. One idea. Thank you. Thank you. I like your discussion, Mariano, about minerals, where they're going to come from, because nobody's really closed that gap. There's a lot of all these gigafactories that are supposed to start in the next eight or nine years.

20:38And there's not enough minerals, assuming all the projects go online in mining, even with site recycling added to meet those and understand the technology, say direct lithium extraction. I know it's been discussed very briefly here in the clubhouse, if that's even viable, another discussion. And of course, even sustainability in mining. For the time being, sustainability in mining might be an important part to meet supply chain recycling, of course, in later years. But I think it's an important topic we should discuss. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, Mark. Yeah, thank you. I am with you. We saw more than one year ago, one from P3 group, explain how many terawatts hours are we now building from battery manufacturing. and this all terawatts hour needs minerals and we know that the carbon footprint is very, very, it's of course, it's very relevant for all, but battery passport also. And if you're coming all the minerals from everyone else, every part of the world, then the carbon footprint is not as perfect. It could be. And also with the regulation that it comes, that needs to be more the regional in general. We know now that in manufacturing, excuse me, in Second Life, it's very, it's like say only regional, it's the option to have in Second Life, because it's when you reside, when you have a Second Life in no half-tenth K kilometres to come from one side to the world to the other side for a Second Life. But it's not that, understand, we need to focus on that mineral. I think it would be perfect to have several projects and to invite them to the battery revolution to Clubhouse. Thank you.

23:16Thanks for sharing my honor. Juhu, we're good to see you. We're just talking about some of the highlights from the past sessions or anything we feel like we should talk about more, maybe like more, more batteries in the Nordics, etc. Are you with us, Juhu? If not, that's no problem either. Maybe come back later. Crystal, is there anything you would like to add? I mean, I don't know if we really focused on any batteries for like, you know, extreme temperatures. I don't know. I missed a few Clubhouse rooms, but this is also, I guess, quite interesting. I'm just thinking, I think we haven't spoken about it before. Do you have like any more kind of, you know, insights on like applications? I know, for example, for oil drilling, people trying to use batteries and these kind of things. Is this what you have in mind or like space or what kind of application would you have in mind with this kind of extreme temperatures crystal?

24:24Yeah, I really don't know like what particular applications. I know for sure people are developing different electrolytes for, you know, to be able to withstand extreme temperatures. And I guess I'm just interested in seeing, you know, how is this niche market for batteries going to develop? I guess I really am not sure what the application is. I think the extreme battery, I guess, operating conditions seems like it's going to gain a lot of momentum soon. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I think this could also really go on maybe some of these startups. So I think also what I hear from this conversation, I think it'd be quite fun to try and invite with some more startups or other companies sharing, you know, what's the innovative approach in the battery world. And I think there's probably much more than we have explored so far. I feel we have covered quite a bit of ground from chemistries to data and like, you know, different applications, but I'm sure there's much more out there as well.

25:35Yeah, I mean, I know here in the US, there is, I guess, a group of folks that come together to talk about batteries operating in extreme environments. And that's largely, I guess, facilitated by applications in the military or space, like you mentioned. So this will be an interesting perspective moving forward, I think. Thank you, Crystal. Yeah, it was from Kateri Khan and Gigi Hong, battery thermal management. But to think about how important is this battery thermal management and they explain his option, his solution. And, but yes, thinking about chemistry, if maybe you are thinking more crystal about which chemistry we want to use and to have a height range of thermal, thermal function with the thermal thermal and environmental. That's maybe you who, as a scientist, could explain more, if he could. But yes, thinking about the thermal, it's very, very irrelevant, as we know, because it came from the life extension, the risk of fire, that we know it. And also on that, this very important, the heating and cooling battery. Not only cooling, also heating in somehow. Thank you.

27:31Thank you. Oh, Drew is back. I was just looking for a very true. Drew, can you hear us now? Yeah, I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Yeah. No, great, great. Yes, I was at the battery 2030 young scientist conference just this week. And the number one thing that came up was that we have to more develop batteries in the direction that they are customizable, that we should really focus on that idea that one battery is not suitable for everything. And we should really look at the first at the applications and then think which kind of chemistry, which kind of battery, like more on energy side or the power side, which kind of battery we should apply for that. I think that was one of the highlights of the event. And we will be providing the manifesto, which probably will be available at some point in the future. It will be very, very interesting to see what comes out of that. What I was trying to also say previously, there was the, did you see the news about the BID buying, like it was like three African lithium mines just to secure its own lithium availability?

28:49Yes. 10 years now of lithium, Juho, this BID. Yeah, very important, very relevant. Each of one needs to come with that because if you want to secure, as we mentioned many, many times, the big players has more the optional and maybe the startups, it's not that easy to ensure that together. Thank you. A great point, Juho. Canel, thanks for joining us. Is there something you would like to share? Hello, Simon. Yes. Thanks for joining me. I would, I had a question, I guess for Juho, about the different applications for the batteries and how, how that would look, right? Because my idea, I thought, you know, you could have some cycle modular system that you could scale depending on the, you know, regardless of the size of the application, but it sounds like there's different chemistries and different variations. And so I guess, yeah, that's, that'd be my question. Like, what would that diversity look like from technology? I think one very easy answer is to say that I think it's a waste to put lithium-ion in stationary storage. I think sodium-ion, when it's developed a bit more, would be much, much better fit for that. Just because I think it's, I think we should really try to save the lithium batteries for mobility applications where you actually need the high energy density, the gravity gravity density density, and then use like these maybe cheaper alternatives, different alternatives for stationary storage. The only reason that people are currently using lithium-ion batteries in stationary storage is that because that's the technology, which is the most mature and others have not been yet as well developed as lithium-ion is. And that's, that's the thing that you can buy off the shelf. And that's why it's used so much in the stationary storage. It's not actually because of the, that it would be the best for the stationary storage. So you're saying that right now the R&D for the other sectors haven't really developed as much due to the, the investments from all these decades in appliances and consumer products.

31:32Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not, what I'm saying that lithium-ion batteries, like compared to other energy storage technologies, it's like much more major matter than the others are. Well, not compared to the pumped hydro or anything, but comparing like to other battery technologies like flow batteries or sodium-ion batteries or other metal ion batteries. Well, I think because it's clear that we are going to have a rough time scaling up the lithium-ion batteries in the future. So that's why I think that diversifying the chemistry portfolio will be very important, just that the prices don't get out of the hand. Dr. Janiksten. But you, if I see the mass market and I see that your idea and very important idea is that application and needs to focus in each one of, let's say the vehicle or each one of, of any one function of, of the batteries is not that easy for having the price down for, for the, the, the mass production. If you have a machinery and a process and everyone, not everyone, but almost everyone is doing the same and it's easy to come with down the prices. It, I don't explain now from the, from the perspective of, of the minerals.

33:04I say from the perspective of the producers of the, of the, of the flow of the process. If you have a standardized process, then it's, it, it is how easy to come down. Then it, it came with the start, with one of the challenges that I see. And many times we have been spoken and that the trend is not coming down, down, down, down the price is stable, stabilizing the price. But it's, uh, with, as you mentioned, maybe with the application, more, more focus on what you need, know? What are the products you, you want to sell and what are the batteries that you need for that product? No. But it's saying that this mass production, it came with the needs of standardized and and doing the same, uh, in many, in many sites, in many factories, then you can, you, because it then is easy to supply chain, uh, would be the same from one side to the other side than the, it's, it's, it's, it's that, but thank you for, for having that.

34:15Yeah, I, I actually completely agree that, uh, and that's, that's why it has been so difficult for other chemistries to get, get into business because we don't have the standards for manufacturing those. But I think that's the one of the reasons I'm currently so excited about sodium, because in theory, you could use the very similar gigafactory lines that we currently have in place for lithium. The, the sodium batteries are exactly the same. You just use different materials, which of course brings some of the challenges in the manufacturing, but still, uh, it would be more than doable for the, with the current technology that we currently have in place. And I think that's actually one of things that could happen. You were talking that there is not enough material for all these gigafactories in Europe, but what if some of them may be pivoted into sodium that because those materials are much more abundant or, or something like that. I think that might really easily happen in the future.

35:13So important topics. And I think, I mean, there's standardization. We've been talking about this a lot at the moment, right? Standardization versus flexibility and things like that. Um, and yeah, I mean, retrofitting of like existing plans and things. And there's, you know, often I feel there's a lot of, um, you know, uh, you know, devils in details, right? You have to kind of, um, you know, it depends a bit on, on some of your circumstances as well. If you can, you know, is it really dropping, you know, dropping chemistry? Is it that simple or there may be some other complications then of different drying, you know, behavior and like, you know, different kind of doing whatever it might need it. Right. So I think there's, there's like also interesting, um, you know, details to, to, to implement as well. But I think, yeah, cause sodium-ion is one of these topics. Definitely. I wouldn't, you know, haven't seen the revival as we're seeing right now, at least, um, you know, a little focus on it, um, maybe two or three years ago. Maybe that's one thing we could also do, right? Like kind of, what are the things, you know, which surprised us maybe, which is now 50 session. I think this is probably one half years, a bit more, maybe almost two years. Um, so what surprised us in the battery world since then maybe something we, you know, we think might surprise us in the next two years? Or what could be something which would surprise us? Or maybe something we would expect? So maybe we can go around the room this way. Maybe my honor, I can put in your first, what surprised to the last two years in the battery world?

36:44Uh, Simon, last two years or future? Ideally both. You start with past and then go into the future. Okay. Okay. Then, okay. It surprised me this, that we in this increasing of the manufacturing and the idea of everyone, every stage, every single country wants to deal with the climate change. And how is it deal? Uh, we know India 2050 and when, when several, several countries are, are, are, dealing with, with that. And that's amazing. But we see that, uh, two years ago, it was not that hype, uh, on, on that. That's for me, uh, the strength, uh, it is coming from, from the energy, renewable energy sector and also the climate change and it becomes fruit through the batteries. But we, the disalignment. Okay. Then what, what next? From, for me, the future. Uh, yesterday, uh, we came with, uh, BatteryMBA participant, uh, with our lithium sulfur batteries. Well, amazing. That's how much density, multiply for four. Then also the prices come down from the, the density and the, the, the range of the temperature also very high from minus 30 to plus 60.

38:17This amazing. It's not from Lyten, from the Californian. But this could be one of the options. The sodium-ion, yes, it comes from CATL, hopefully, and others. But CATL is one of the pickers that are, uh, push that. As, uh, Juho mentioned, I think that the, the, it is one of the trends that, uh, could come, uh, in the future, near future. And also solid-state battery. Why not? Uh, I think it's, uh, many, many positive, uh, well, there are challenge and the manufacturing side, but, uh, scaling, uh, the solid-state battery, but the positive that, uh, we know now the, uh, that's could become on the solid-state battery are huge. And, uh, from the charging times to the risk of fire and many, many, many things that, uh, solid-state battery, uh, are with, uh, uh, could come. That's for me in, in the near future. Maybe not for the next two years, but, uh, for, but I see sustainability also very important topic now. Battery passport in the, in the meantime, in these two, next two years needs to, to come with the battery passport. Also very relevant, in general, hopefully many, many countries could also, uh, come with, uh, the same ideas, uh, the battery passport. Uh, that is one, one of the, why, no, why? Because I am a consumer. I want to know, uh, that's one thing, uh, why, but as a consumer, I, I, I want to know how sustainable is the, is the, is the battery. That's one thing. The other thing that if you push that and you have, uh, many OEMs and many battery manufacturers, think about that. They would have a greenest supply chain, uh, on that regard. Also with the traceability that it's need to be placed with the due diligence and all the other things, uh, in, in, in between. That's for me is the new trends also for the next, uh, two years. And this is coming also the EU regulation next two years. We're 2024. There are several topics that from recycling percentage percentage of recycling also needs to be in place from the EU regulation. And, uh, also in China, we see new regulations coming from second life and recycling, very important, very relevant now in place, but, uh, maybe in the next years also more.

41:08And hopefully us, uh, we know now that they are coming a lot with this, uh, stationary batteries with the grid, because, uh, the, the grid at the energy sector, uh, we as, uh, battery, uh, uh, associates we are with dealing with the global material alliance with this CO2 carbon footprint. And one of the most relevant, uh, is the energy. Uh, if you have a green energy, then the CO2 carbon footprint is, uh, low. Um, you have not, uh, a green energy, then it's very high. You know, it's a few percentage of the carbon footprint. And this also greet, uh, green energy using, uh, batteries and other, uh, types of, of energy storage. It's very important. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mariana, for quite a nice detailed answer. I think you already covered a lot. So is there anything else, you know, Christopher, you kind of would see in the next two years or in the past two years? Yeah. So I think looking back even further than sort of, you know, maybe two or three years ago, we look at the, at what the outlook was. So the, the, the manufacturing side within Europe, uh, and the lack of sort of manufacturing facilities now look and seeing the speed at which so many plans for sort of new gigafactories to, to come up just how quickly they've, uh, sort of went from very little, uh, to I think last time I counted those 30, 30 plus gigafactories in Europe alone. I mean, say, saying that speed has been phenomenal. Uh, I think as I, as I look to the future, it's saying sort of those planned sites being transformed into producing sites and to see sort of, you know, which ones actually sort of fulfilled to the, the ambitions that had, will the ambitions, did the ambitions actually, maybe ambition is the wrong word, but the saying just how big these sort of new starters become. I mean, we look at Tesla, I mean, Tesla's absolutely huge and nobody will argue that, that fact and the, the disruption that it brought to the, the car manufacturers looking to say what disruption we'll see sort of within the, the, the battery manufacturers, uh, you know, will we say solid states, you know, a couple of years ago, it was said 2025, a couple of years time, will we see these pilot factories, will we see the commercialization, uh, you know, there's, I think there's, there's lots to look for though. I think we, yeah, outside of China, the, the, you know, the, the environment's still sort of grown, you know, the, the, the, the industry's still a long way at Amitua and it's just to see how that, how that journey goes.

44:28Thank you. Thanks for sharing Christopher. Mark, anything you'd like to add? Mark, a lot of exciting things have happened. Can you hear me? Yeah. A lot of exciting things have happened this year. Um, very surprised by the, um, the supply disruptions of course with the minerals, the nickel, the cobalt. And, and this is exciting as that, you know, every, every, you know, board discussion, every, uh, webinar discusses carbon footprint recycling. This wasn't something that was a big deal a few years ago. Uh, do they have great answers? Not necessarily because these supply chains are still in flux. They don't, they may have answers, but they really don't understand how they're going to, you know, decarbonize their supply chain. Um, so I like that discussion. Um, I'm surprised by the, um, I'm an manufacturing, Christopher Mitchell, this, uh, happening very quickly, particularly in Europe, it's a little bit slower in the United States. Uh, there's been discussions of course, planned adventures, but not as many, uh, battery manufacturing facilities. And, you know, there's a lot of startups with battery technology and the truth is most of them are hyped. I'm curious to see which ones actually scale, uh, including QuantumScape. They still haven't scaled it in around a dozen years or so. They still haven't been able to scale their, their invention. So that's, um, that's a curiosity for the future. What I'd like to see, particularly in the recycling front is, um, you know, actually look at technologies that recycle every part of the battery.

46:23There isn't really no companies really looking that I've seen to say recycle the electrolyte, recycle the binder, recycle the plastics. People have briefly mentioned, but it really is not happening. Um, and you know, the Biden administration grants have actually allocated money. Of course, my company's looking to do some of that, but, um, that's a, that's a curiosity. I'd like to see more attention to full battery recycling and decarbonized, uh, low carbon footprint recycling technologies. Obviously, uh, pyro is not going to stand in the battery, um, directive because of the recycling percentages. You're not recycling the graphite, uh, you're not going to, uh, get to say 55 or 70 percent. And that's why I'd like to see more discussion of say the lupic graphite binder, electrolyte plastics, um, discussed in that. Um, there isn't as much discussion about decarbonizing the battery manufacturing, um, that I've seen. I know that's a more complicated, all the different, um, parts of that line and, um, merely just optimize it for manufacturing, much less decarbonizing it. Obviously, if it's electrified, it's easier, but, uh, not always electrified from one where maybe Christopher had some more thoughts on that, but, um, I'd like to see more discussion of that in the future. Thank you for your time.

47:50Thank you very much for sharing Mark. I think this was some really valuable points. Crystal, would you like to be next? Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, I'm coming from a, from an academic world and then shifting over to the battery industry space. So I guess my perspective on the past is a little bit skewed. Um, but I did not realize how, I guess, far behind the U.S. is in, um, you know, battery manufacturing and in the supply chain. So I know a lot of, um, work is going into trying to beef up the supply chain in the U S for sure. And I don't think I fully, um, understood that until I actually got into industry. Um, and then I guess in the future, you know, the battery space seems to be a very customer driven market because of so many battery chemistries that are out there. So it'll be interesting to see how, uh, the market evolves over time with, you know, different customers, different, you know, startup companies as Mark mentioned. Um, but I also think it'll be interesting to see how AI and other types of data analytic systems will be used to predict potentially new technologies and how they'll, how they will perform in a variety of different, uh, niche applications. So I think that's all I have to say.

49:25Great. Thank you so much, Crystal. Jewel. Yeah. I, I think the coolest thing is that nobody thinks I'm a freak anymore when I say that I'm a battery scientist, that I'm interested in the batteries, like what has been happening in the last two years when I, when, when I said it in 2017, everybody was like, why, what, why, why are you studying batteries? Now, now everybody seems to understand why, why they are so interesting. Uh, what I would like to see, I don't know if this is more of my utopia or actually going to happen, but I would like to see that, uh, the local value chains for batteries would emerge and they would be like basically supported by the idea that, uh, we put the, just so big carbon tax for the, all the batteries coming out of the outside of the EU, which would support the building of the local, local value chains for batteries. I think that would be really nice to see is because then you will lose energy, like making stuff more of a move around. And actually one of the things which was mentioned in the same conference that I was just in was that maybe we should, uh, start to, uh, like make the blacklists of battery. And when, when batteries manufacturers, the manufacturer should tell how many kilowatt hours of energy they, they spend for each kilowatt hour batteries that they produce.

50:45And that would be actually really nice metric for comparing the batteries in the future, but like just to see like, which, uh, company can produce the most kilowatt hours most efficiently, which means that, uh, they had, they, then they must have a good process and then it could be in theory, uh, using the less energy and be the less CO2 intensive also. Thank you. I mean, this is a great point. I love also the, you know, the acceptance of battery, you know, scientists and experts these days. And I mean, yeah, I think what you mentioned also is quite connected to the battery passport, of course, something we're quite excited about seeing what's going to happen with that for the next two years. Canals, anything you would like to add to it? I would just, my biggest, uh, I've been in this space for very long. My, my most relevant experience was a potential opportunity to be, uh, the CTO of a battery storage startup here in Atlanta.

52:01Unfortunately, um, I made a different direction for my career, but I'm still very interested in this space. I think, uh, one of the, the biggest thing is, yeah, seeing, seeing the American imagination, how it was captured with electric vehicles, seeing that same enthusiasm or at least, uh, momentum being transferred to the other side of the market, whether it be, you know, solar storage or industrial applications like that. So that's, that's really where I see a lot of, a lot of the growth potential and still a long way to go. It seems like, but, uh, it's, it's, it's also something that is, uh, additional feature or even consulting practice that you can, that you can add to their service. So you are installing solar and boom, now you have a, a way of adding more value to the customer, more resilient and things like that, even, even right now. So I think, I think, um, yeah, right now it's like, uh, it's a big challenge because I currently work for Georgia Power and I mean, I literally just started like two weeks ago, just graduated university and everything. And, uh, uh, yeah, they're a big institution. They don't want to, uh, they don't, they don't want to give up their, their customers. Like they don't, you know, they don't, they don't have an incentive to allow people to be in that and, uh, free from free from their electric bill. So, uh, these types of batteries are, are very much a threat to these wood companies as well, you know, as well as solar, not, not just batteries, but solar too. Like those, those are the two big pieces. And, and also like, uh, a lot of it is very challenging because, um, this infrastructure in the grid is, has a lot of inertia. Like a lot of these, a lot of these wiring and network systems that are above ground or underground are, you know, decades old. And in order to, you know, connect those two different micro grids, for instance, um, you know, it's a really big challenge, uh, that I'm looking to find solutions for early in my career. And, and, uh, uh, yeah, I think there's a lot of potential though, uh, depending on, you know, what direction it takes.

55:07Thank you for sharing as well, Kano. I mean, I think that's, you know, I think that's a bit of the journey of everyone, right? I think going through, you know, seeing how the systems are changing and how, you know, how we fit into them. But thank you. Batteries has been a video. I mean, also this, this, this room itself or this club revolution has been really faster than anything for me personally as well for the last two years or so. And I think also the discussions and also just all the growth, I think, you know, I mean, it's, it's always, you know, easy to kind of forecast or not easy, but like it's possible to forecast and, you know, to look at statistics, et cetera, but also really see how many more people are getting involved. I think that's really fascinating for me also to see lots of people who joined this room and, you know, they're interested in batteries in the beginning and suddenly they actually work on batteries. Um, you know, and I think that's, that's really, really exciting for me personally as well. Um, also the growth of LFP, I think was also mentioned.

55:55I think that's really one of the amounts for really fascinating the last two years and materials. And yeah, I think just, uh, you know, the entire industry has been in a, in a, quite a strong growth period and interesting to see how this can develop for the next two years as well. That was this, I think we might kind of do a bit of a shorter one today, maybe one hour instead of one and a half. I think we all deserve a weekend. And, um, I know all of you are working very hard. I know all of us went to conferences recently, so it's, it's good to get a bit of rest from this as well. But yeah, I just want to say a big, big thank you for all the past 50 sessions of all of you. It's been a tremendous experience and really, really nice to also get to know each other. That will be my absolute highlight of the last 50 sessions. We know this fantastic group here.

56:35If everyone here is right now and everyone has been joining us in the past, they might join us again in the future. So really, really grateful for this beautiful community, um, of all of your lovely battery enthusiasts like all are. With this, I wish you all a wonderful weekend. Thank you so much for, for joining us today and sharing your insights and listening in. If you listened on the podcast, again, you can find us under battery insiders on Spotify, Apple podcasts, anywhere else you listen to your podcast too. And yeah, next month, we're looking forward to our usual programming, having conversations started and do it the usual way. But yeah, I just want to say a big thank you for all of you to share your reflections, your thoughts, comments, and also some lots of good ideas. I wrote down lots of them. So really appreciate that. So I think that gives us some great new topics for the upcoming sessions as well. Thanks so much, everyone. Have a wonderful day.

57:20Yeah. Thanks everyone. Bye. Bye. Have a good weekend. Thank you.