Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Battery Day 2022 Summary

0:00Transcript

0:00Welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for joining, either in live or for the recording, for our 54th session of Battery Revolution, which also appears as part of the Battery Insiders podcast. Today we have a very exciting session in front of us. We're looking at the topic of Battery Day 2022, which essentially covers a range of different topics. And we're fortunate to have two fantastic experts and also moderators from the day with us, Bianca and Pooja, who are going to enlighten us with some of the insights of the panels they participated in, which I can already quickly tease on for anybody who's, you know, urgent to listen to them, which is battery microwave in Asia, battery use cases, mobility versus stationary, as well as solid-state battery. So we should be in for a treat. And there's also a bunch of other topics we can cover. And I also know some more here in the audience have also participated and can give some additional insights. And yeah, very maybe quick context for anybody who's listening to this the first time. These sessions have been running now, as you can see from the title, for the 44th, 54th time. We have covered a range of different topics.

1:06And if you want to listen to them again, just look for Battery Insiders on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts, and you can hear from there. And I'm also very fortunate to not be here by myself. We've also got Mariam with me as a co-host. Mary Mariam, do you want to maybe quickly share a few words before we give it over to Bianca to kick us off? Yeah, I'm really, really excited to hear about Battery Day. So Bianca and Pooja, maybe we can start with Bianca. Maybe we can start with a round of introductions and then an introduction of the topic. Hi, my name is Bianca. I'm a chemical engineer by background, focused on the energy transition and also an ambassador with Battery Associates. Yeah, I can also give a quick intro. So my name is Pooja and I'm also a chemical engineer. I'm pursuing a PhD in solid-state batteries at University College London. And I'm kind of interested both on like the synthesis side and some electrochemical modelling. And I've also done a few internships, notably my last one was at Tesla. So I've kind of got some industry insight as well.

2:08I guess to kick off the review of Battery Day 2022 might tell you guys a little bit about the panel I moderated, which was the battery market overview in Asia. We had four awesome panellists that were there. One was James Firth and he is the VC at Volstar Energy Technologies. We had Jesse Eng, who's an associate director for commodities at the Singapore exchange and specifically leading their market research and industry engagement for the exchange planned launch of derivatives on battery raw materials. We had Frank Yu and he is the China research lead at Roe Motion. And then we had Cormac O'Leary and he is the director for Electroasis Energy, which does consulting due diligence expert witness services, the whole lot for EVs and ESS storage. So we basically were trying to talk about the Asian battery market. And we started with the supply chain and sort of focused in on, you know, that the battery critical commodities are found all over the world. You go to Australia for spodgamine, Latin America for lithium salts, Indonesia for nickel.

3:46But then when it comes to the battery processing of those raw commodities, that's largely centred in Asia and specifically in China. China dominates the battery supply chain and they're responsible for most of the battery chemical refining, cathode and anode manufacturing and a lot of the downstream battery cell assembly. But that also then reaches back out to be more global. And specifically, you know, the panelists were giving credit to how much China has played a role in getting us to where we are today. So companies like CATL have invested billions and are largely responsible for getting costs low enough that we have the wide scale adoption of the battery industry today. And James commented that while he understands why countries might want to be protectionist of materials going into batteries and wanting self-reliance, the world will continue to need to rely on China, at least for the short to medium term. So I'll just pause there. So I'll just pause there. Any thoughts or comments to that?

4:58Great. I'll keep on going. We also talked about the general supply demand balance globally. Frank said that despite the huge investments in batteries across North America and Europe, supply will still not meet demand in those regions. So some countries like Indonesia are moving down the value chain from just supplying the commodity to producing or looking to produce sort of the battery materials. And specifically in Indonesia, this is being incentivized by nickel export bans that have just been put in place. Countries like India are taking steps towards incentivizing 50 gigawatt hours of domestic battery manufacturing. But again, for the meantime, China will remain a key exporter of these critical battery supply globally. And to support this, China is also starting to develop a local battery passport to measure their manufacturing emissions and track their supply chains to enable continued export to regions like Europe, which is looking to pass legislation that would require these types of documentation to be present to sell new batteries into the region.

6:19Any comments on that or anybody want to add any of their thoughts? So, Bianca, I did have a question and I'm wondering if it was touched upon in the session, but with the battery passport, how does that affect essentially, you know, trade or importing as, you know, the use of batteries given that materials are coming from China? Is there some sort of harmonization between, you know, tracking the supply, the source of the supply chain and the carbon emissions between countries yet? Yeah, great question. So, the proposed legislation for the European Commission for battery passport has many different elements. It's for larger batteries, so sort of moped size and above. And it would require both, a couple of the key requirements is that it would mandate that you would have a certain percentage of recycled materials in your new batteries, like 12% recycled cobalt. And it would also require that you measure the emissions that were created to manufacture that battery. It has to be below a certain amount in order to be able to be sold into Europe.

7:33There isn't harmonization across regions because there isn't even one region that is actually doing this today. But I guess they're preparing themselves that if this legislation does get passed in one form or another, which on the ground, it sounds like it will, that they will still be able to freely export their product into Europe and still have that as a potential customer. Thank you so much, Bianca. Bianca, does anyone in the audience have any questions so far for Bianca? Bianca, I would say, yeah, let's keep going. Great. We also touched across battery energy storage systems in this session. So again, China dominates the supply of these batteries and like, but really is the majority holder and hence they shape the chemistry that the world is using for these battery energy storage system builds. So it's largely prismatic batteries and then in 2023, we're seeing CATL is forecasting that they're trying to commercialize sodium-ion batteries in the space. Additionally, Chinese policy states that NMC and lithium sulfur batteries are not allowed in large scale energy storage systems.

8:51So those chemistries won't be coming into play. And we also touched on flow batteries as a competitor just starting to be commercialized with a first phase of a 200 megawatt, 800 megawatt hour for duration storage battery already being flow battery already having been commissioned today. And the fun fact I took from this session was that NMC batteries, the higher the nickel chemistries are, the lower the thermal runaway temperature in the battery. So this is why NMC is not advised for sort of two wheelers with leaner BMS systems and that there's fear around sort of second life uses for NMC. So that's why NMC. But one of our panelists noted that all battery fires globally, when they've been researched, the battery itself has never been the source of the fire. Something else has caught fire and then it's affected the battery. So the batteries themselves are doing pretty well. So that's sort of my recap of that panel. Thank you so much, Bianca. What were your thoughts essentially on the, you know, the different policies coming out, things like the battery passport and so on, how that would affect the use of batteries?

10:19I don't think it would affect their use so much. It more affects, you know, battery manufacturer strategy of who they will sell to, because as the US, China and Europe create different legislation about what can be sold into their regions, companies will have to choose whether they manufacture to the highest standard in the world or whether they choose to exclude certain markets and manufacture for lower standards that, might exclude them from certain customers in certain regions. Yeah, that's actually really helpful. Does anyone have any questions for Bianca? Maybe just one thing also, Bianca. No, thank you so much for the excellent summary. Because also you mentioned also, I think a bit also like these other regions, right? Of course, China being one of them, very large in both, but we're also talking about these kind of up and coming champions, right? In Asia, thinking about kind of such like, you know, Indonesia, maybe also more from raw materials side, but also potential production with India, etc.

11:20So, you know, any thoughts maybe also from the panel in general, on, you know, maybe some of these upcoming champions in Asia later batteries? Anything to think about that? In case you speak, Bianca, I cannot hear you muted. Yeah, I mean, I guess India and Indonesia seem to be the most promising, who are really investing in trying to move up for Indonesia to move up the value chain, and use the raw commodities they have, and get into the sort of processing of those commodities to battery precursors. And then India, it's about the government really wants to incentivize that to now become the next sort of manufacturing hub where we'll see lots of, hopefully, gigafactory announcements coming soon. Great, thanks. If there's anybody else in the audience, as was said, also by Mariam, please put your hand up. I know some of you may can maybe also speak about some of the other panels, but yeah, never hesitate to jump in as well. Otherwise, should we go to the next panel, Bianca?

12:25Yeah, absolutely. So, also had the pleasure to moderate the battery use cases, mobility versus stationary panel, and here we had two powerhouse guests. There was Rajashii Rakesh Sahai, and he's a thought leader on smart cities, energy transportation, and mobility. He's successfully led organizations across automotive, growing their strategies for electric vehicle, electric and shared mobility, and mobility as a service. So, he's now the CEO of Bittles Electrics EMEA business. And then we also have Marek Kubik, and he is also a recognized industry thought leader and executive. And he's a founding member and managing director in the global leader energy storage tech fluids. He's there oversees their sales of their energy storage products. So, to talk to first battery storage. So, battery storage, we had a quite great quote from Marek, which is an electron time machine. So, basically, you're taking that energy electron and saving it for later. And the key use cases that he talked about were using stationary batteries to support imbalances in the grid from second to second.

13:55And this is particularly important as we use more and more renewable inputs, which can be variable. He talked about pairing it directly with renewables, like combining solar and storage. This allows time shifting of the renewables resource. You know, the excess made during daylight hours, which you would normally curtail. You actually now store that for use during sunless hours. And then peaking replacement to replace thermal peaking power plants that typically only run for a few hours a year, a few times a year. They're very easily replaced and cost effectively replaced by battery storage today. Then Raj, when talking about mobility industry use cases. You know, we know that in trying to electrify our economy towards a net zero world, electrifying vehicles is really low hanging fruit. But OEMs are really focusing on passenger vehicles now like your Tesla's right? Because the premium they can sell these vehicles for is huge. But if we want to accelerate the energy transition, we really should be focused on different classes of vehicles.

15:10So he gave the example of, you know, the average car in Europe emits 90 grams of CO2 equivalent per kilometer, whereas a van does 150 grams of CO2 equivalent per kilometer. And that van drives a lot more kilometers per day than a personal passenger vehicle, which is usually either sitting at home or sitting in the office car park. Right. So we really need to be focusing on electrifying those sort of vans and work vehicles. And then we also have, you know, the two wheelers that dominate in Asia, like the tuk-tuk. And these are prime candidates for electrification. So just pause there for anybody wants to comment or contribute. Maybe one thing about the volume, right? And I think there was a bit of this discussion about this capacity, right? Where will be more need? Because you just mentioned also tuk-tuk and, you know, a lot of mobility applications and of course, stationary. So maybe what are your impressions, maybe at this point, like which of them, you know, is one of them more important than another, both as equally important, also a decarbonisation standpoint?

16:18Just kind of what was your impression, what you got from the speakers at this point? Both are important. For the next decade, definitely most of the demand will come from the mobility industry. But we shouldn't underestimate the volume of batteries that will be needed for battery storage. And that's definitely growing every day. And that sort of leads me into my final point, which is actually we sort of pitched this panel as mobility versus storage, wanting to see if there's competition between the two spaces. But our panelists really showed us that we need them both and they need each other to work together. Specifically, mobility needs storage. And we were given some great examples. So, you know, we need to make sure that our grid is not overloaded from all the EVs trying to recharge. And so the virtual transmission storage technology can help with that. But the example that was really interesting was from Merrick. And he was talking about how the Geneva Transport Authority, they have designed their public buses, which are electric, using batteries that are based on LTO technology.

17:35So chemistry. So they charge really, really fast. And the way that they've done it is the batteries on the buses are actually quite small, but they've set up recharge stations regularly on the routes that the buses take. So they recharge every few stops instead of having one big battery that takes a long time to recharge sort of other main hub stations. Thanks for sharing that. Maybe that also goes in the bit of a connection of, I think, vehicle to grid was also mentioned, right, in the panel. I'm not sure if anything you can say more about that, about how vehicle to grid came up, if you remember. Yeah, absolutely. So they talked a little bit about vehicle to grid. And they said it was very location dependent, right? There are some cities and cultures where that is an option, where you'll have enough sort of personal stationary vehicles that can be consistently plugged in, where the battery in the cars could provide support to the grid.

18:39But the initial excitement around this concept, it's probably not going to get as big as people originally thought. This will be interesting also to see when I think it's going to come out because of course we also had infuse discussion on the podcast, you know, discussion with Volkswagen, you know, if they're not all become like we get a good ready and what could this mean from a capacity standpoint from a good perspective. Yeah, I think it would be as you say, Banker, I think it's interesting to see how this develops and I can see how maybe how the, you know, it's unclear at this point, you know, how big it will become. It's definitely one of these things that has been floating around for a while. And yeah, it feels like at least for me personally, that we might be getting closer to some more, more, you know, more use cases, but will be interesting to see how this develops. Is there anything else you want to share from this panel?

19:26Is there anybody here has any questions about this panel? That was my main takeaways. Happy to answer any questions or hear from our other presenters. Maybe one thing from me, I'd say if there's someone else, because here we looked at two applications, right? We looked at stationarity and mobility and maybe maybe like road transport. I'm just curious if you have any other thoughts from applications, Bianca, you think maybe we should, something we should consider bring on next time, right? If you look at other applications, but what other applications could be relevant to look at in such a panel in the future? I mean, in its very early stage is battery use for aircraft. The first application will probably be for very light aircraft that does very short distances. I think like within the same country, there's no way you could put a battery in a plane for long haul today. It's just way too heavy for the distances. Airlines are one of those sort of hard to abate industries.

20:33You can make synthetic air jet fuel instead of crude oil based jet fuel. However, the logistics supply chain for that gets quite complicated quite fast. So the goal is to eventually electrify planes, but to see electrified planes in the skies before 2050 will probably be a stretch. Great. Thanks, Bianca. I think definitely electric airplanes would be an interesting one. There's been quite a few announcements recently, and of course we also looked into bringing some people on, but so far it hasn't been as straightforward. But yeah, I think I agree. It could be interesting discussion to have. Myron, Pooja, any questions you would have for Bianca this time? Otherwise we can also move over to Pooja. I want to say thank you, Bianca, for that for that summary. That was really, really interesting. I wrote down some notes and and yeah, just Pooja, I guess we could we could jump into the summary. Maybe just one quick thing I would do before is just a quick recap for anybody just listening.

21:34And now just what are we discussing right now? We're talking about battery day 2022, which is an annual event also by battery associates together with some great partners and lots of fantastic ambassadors and speakers. And then we are if you want to look at the essentially what these sessions we're talking about, if you haven't been to the event, you can also go on battery day dot info. And you find like all the schedule there, etc. So you can see all the different sessions. There's also a way to to get access to recordings if you wish to do so. And if you missed the event itself. It was a 12 hour event. So maybe just as a quick caveat. So there's a lot we could cover. But for now, we're going to look at these first two panels, which were just discussed from Asia market perspective, as well as better use cases just shared by Bianca who moderate these two panels. And now we're going to go over next to the next session or one of the next panels, which is on solid-state batteries, which was hosted and motivated by Pooja.

22:29Yeah. So, yeah, I had the privilege of moderating the solid-state batteries and also looking at like lithium metal based chemistries. And on our panel, we had Raymond Koever and he was from Factorial Energy. So it was really good to have somebody from the startup solid-state battery company space. And then we also had Marina Martinez and she's a researcher at CIC Energy. So, again, we had someone from academia and industry. And the main objective from the panel was to kind of try and understand both from the industry and academic perspective, what is going to be the big solid-state, I guess, outcomes and where we are with commercialization. Because currently there is no like bulk commercial solid-state battery. There are solid-state batteries that exist in thin film format. So these are actually commercial and they're used for medical devices. But the goal of solid-state batteries is to have a higher energy density. And this is basically enabled with using a lithium metal anode and trying to get to the higher energy densities because you have a solid electrolyte.

23:41And that can prevent these like dendrite formations or this growth of lithium filaments because of this solid solid interface. So that was kind of the approach of this. And I wanted to basically ask our panelists what we see is like the solid electrolytes, the advantages and disadvantages of different types. So from factorial energy, their approach is using a polymer and like hybrid mix of oxide and polymers. And I think their reason for this approach is that with the oxides and sulfides, you have a higher ionic conductivity and a higher stability against lithium metal, especially for the oxides. But then the contact for the oxide, so electrolyte with the kind of cathode materials, quite difficult. So their kind of approach was mixing this into the polymer would give this better contact. And I think even from Maria Martinez, it was quite interesting to see that also her idea was there'd be some kind of hybrid approach. Like none of these solid electrolytes meet all of the kind of goals and requirements that we would like.

24:48So having this mix of polymer seemed to make sense. And I think also different academic researches, labs and even industry are taking different approaches. So maybe I'll just pause there and see what people's thoughts are on this. So Pooja, how far away are we from the performance targets that are needed to achieve the sort of scale we need for net zero with solid-state batteries? Yeah, so that's a great question. I think there's different levels. So on the startup side, there's a lot of companies that make claims that in the next five years or 2025 or 2030, they will meet these kind of targets and requirements. But even the requirements are kind of unset at the moment. So I think initially it's trying to get parity with in terms of performance in metrics with kind of current lithium-ion. And then, you know, the goal to reduce either the cost or, you know, increase the energy density and volumetric energy density so that there is an advantage of lithium-ion, which would be something, I guess, in five years time is what companies are targeting.

25:54There's, I guess, I guess, QuantumScape, which is the most progressive at the moment, and they're trying to do a pilot line by 2024. But as we kind of discussed with the panelists, even if there is a cell, you know, on the cell level, we have kind of meeting these metrics, even to kind of get to the manufacturing and then safety certification and deployment that can take a few years as well. So at least from the cell level, from research side, we haven't quite got to those metrics. Industry kind of claimed that they have, but there's a lot of it's not very transparent in industry. So it's kind of hard to say on that. But I think both our panelists were towards, you know, the latter half of the 2020s decades and kind of into 2030 was the idea. Thank you, Pooja. That's interesting. So has there been a discussion, I guess, about whether there seems to be a chemistry that will win just based off of the maturity of its maturity or timelines of essentially getting it to a place where we can use it?

26:58Yeah, so that's a great one. I think they've kind of been characterized into two main camps. So one, which is the oxides, and then the other, which is the sulfides. And I think neither kind of meet both like the requirements, but oxides kind of have the electrochemical stability, especially against a lithium metal anode. So if you're targeting lithium metal, then oxides kind of give you that stability window. So if you're cycling within, you know, the normal operation voltage window, then I think targeting oxides. But oxides mean they're quite brittle and then mixing them with the cathode material can be quite difficult. So at the moment, there is like a small amount of like catholite, which can be liquid based that is kind of mixed between the oxide and the cathode material. So then this can kind of have disadvantage in terms of safety if you're including like liquids. So that's, I guess, the leading area is mostly like QuantumScape. And I think they've kind of got the highest, I think, energy density, like kind of metrics or performance till date that they've shown.

27:59On the other side, though, you have the sulfides. So I think this is mostly led by solid power. I think Toyota does a lot of research in this as well. And I think the advantages with sulfides is that we can kind of mix these powders because they're very soft with the kind of cathode material. So on a manufacturing side, this will be easier to kind of scale up. But they're not kind of on the electrochemical window side stable with lithium metal. So they're looking at other anode materials which have a similar energy density, so like silicon anodes. But silicon anodes have almost like 300% volumetric expansion during cycling. So, again, there's process and cons. And then you've kind of got the people in between, which is like factorial or even SES, which actually use like a liquid or like a polymer kind of mix electrolytes. So trying to mix the oxide with the polymers. And I think that might kind of have the best case solution because you're getting the contacts between the different interfaces better.

28:56But then you're also getting the kind of stability or electrochemical stability from the oxide. So right now, to kind of answer your question, there is no clear winner. And we're kind of targeting all these different, I guess, two or three main kind of approaches to see which one will be better. But for now, there's no clear winner. Great. Thanks. Thanks so much. I think that's a really great insight as well. And I think, yeah, also for people wondering about this, you can also look for Battery Associates newsletter on Google, Battery Associates white paper on newsletter. Or solid-state white paper. I think actually works on State white paper on Google. And you will also find a white paper, Prusa was a co-author of on solid-state batteries, where I think there was a plan of review or like an update in the near future. But I think it also gives you some great insights there as well. And you can already see Prusa's expertise on these topics.

29:43So definitely worth a read. Maybe I thought I'd just quickly add, we also did a poll before, which also was on solid-state batteries and also showed kind of a bit similar to what you just said, Prusa, right? Which kind of said most of the people at least who respond on LinkedIn. You know, a lot of people would think that would come before 2030, as you said. Some braver souls also before 2025. And then some after. But I think it was also interesting to see that what you just said, these numbers seem quite familiar also in the industry with others. Yeah, definitely. And I think a recent kind of safety kind of concern that's been circulating in academia as well as industry is the kind of safety aspect. So solid-state batteries advantage was, you know, with a solid electrolyte, you remove a flammable liquid electrolyte and that would inherently make it safer. However, there are some concerns because if you short circuit a solid-state battery, there will still be a lot of heat generated and exothermic reaction.

30:45So I kind of was discussing this with Raymond as well. And I think one point he mentioned that even if, you know, there is a lot of heating and that kind of could cause some of the cell casing to kind of melt, they don't think that it would kind of propagate on the same level. So you wouldn't have, you know, like a thermal runaway to such an extent that you have lithium-ion. So they kind of still reckon there'd be still safety around that. And I think another thing that is kind of worse for like the sulfides that is often not talked about is that when sulfides kind of react with air, they form a toxic H2S gas. So again, if there was a short circuit or you have a massive amounts of this sulfur solid electrolyte in these cells, that could be something that would be have to taken into consideration from a cell and manufacturing standpoint. And another thing that was not really, I guess, of much of a discussed about in this panel was a lot of external pressure.

31:42So right now, at least on the academic level, a lot of these cells are cycled with external pressure. And this is to basically make the contact between the solid-solid interfaces a lot better. And a lot of the times you can have delamination from the active materials if there's not enough pressure. And that can then cause like fracture and then degradation of the cells. So I guess on a manufacturing pack level, we can kind of engineer the solid-state cells itself to like stack itself and then cause pressure in that way without having to, you know, artificially clamp the cells. Because in an electric vehicle, that would be not possible. And that would add a lot of additional weight to the car. So I think that's another consideration, you know, when we're thinking about timeframes, that even if we kind of make it work on a cell level, cell to module or to pack, that can take a lot of external kind of considerations. So maybe I'll pause again here if anyone has any thoughts on scaling up solid-state cells.

32:48Thanks so much. I think that's a very valuable, important point also, these temperature and the pressure. One other thing maybe I want to quickly ask. So maybe one quick thing. I just look at the numbers again. So the latest poll now closed. It has about 50% of the respondents said they would think that solid-state batteries will reach the commercial market before 2030, about 50%. And then each 25% said either before 25 or after 2030, and then none this year, which I guess is not too unexpected. But yeah, maybe just to kind of quickly add these numbers, we'll go from the surveys. But one question I just had for you, Prusa, also about dendrites, right? Because in the past, I think people also thought solid-state or like solid-state electrolytes would essentially prevent dendrites and reduce risk. And now we can see that dendrites can also form for solid-state batteries. I'm just curious, is this something which also came up? Or is this something you could add something on?

33:45Yeah, so I think that's actually a really important point to kind of bring up. I don't think we discussed it that much in the panel. We kind of touched on the different anode materials. So, you know, lithium metal anode or anode-free versus kind of looking at silicon anodes. And I think Raymond was very much in favor of, you know, like lithium metals, because I think that's something that factorial energy and a lot of other EV startups in the space are kind of focusing on. And as you say, we have dendrite issues. And especially at the high C rates, where you're kind of plating and stripping lithium at that interface. A lot of if you're stripping faster than you're plating, then you can cause like void formation. And then when you're plating again, then in these voids, you can kind of fill or deposit lithium into this. And then as you continue to cycle, then these, I guess, lithium filaments can kind of propagate and short circuit the cell.

34:39So especially at the high C rates, we see this issue. And then again, if we can kind of control and stop these voids forming in the first place by applying external pressure, that's another way we can kind of design the cell stack and kind of get away with this. So I think notably QuantumScape have seemed to solve this dendrite issue. They've kind of shown cells cycling at high C rates and for high cycle life. But I think there's still a lot of questions around that. And then even if you can see that performance, even if they've solved what they claim to be the dendrite issue on like a single layer cell, if you kind of make a full pouch cell and then multi-stacks, does that still kind of hold? So I think that's still an open question. But there has been a recent shift towards silicon anode and also other like alloy, lithium alloy metals, especially silicon anodes, because the potential, electrochemical potential is higher than lithium and they're kind of less reactive.

35:40So the formation of dendrites is lower. And I think, yeah, a lot of like Shirley Ming's group has kind of reported in literature that they have very high cycle life using silicon anodes. And by kind of having the silicon with porosity already embedded into it, the volumetric expansion can kind of be lowered. So instead of getting, you know, 300 percent expansion and kind of limit to this to around 40 percent. So that could maybe be an alternative approach. And that's also what Solid Power is also focusing on as well. So I think that's still interesting to kind of consider and keep thinking about dendrite formations. It's definitely very much still a problem in academic literature. And yeah, I think we should focus on this more. Great. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Is there anybody else here has any thoughts, any questions? If not at this time, we can also thank Pooja for these great insights. And just in case we already spoke, same as Pooja in case you have to drop off at any given time, please, please just don't let us know.

36:41That's not a problem. I think we also have Mark with us, who was one of the panelists for the recycling panel. Maybe he can also share some of the recycling insights if you're available right now. Hi, Mark. Good to see you. In case you're speaking, you're muted. That may be a start just getting set up. I thought maybe I can already introduce the panel before Mark gets started. I think this one is just getting set up. So there's a few other panels. We also had, again, 12-hour event, lots of different topics. And I think definitely Pooja to subscribe and be angry with definitely some of the highlights also with these panels. There were a couple of more also interesting panels. One of those were for cycling, which we're going to introduce in a second. It was introduced to other co-panelists next to Mark, who just joined us on stage. But there were also some other panels, which I'm going to quickly just mention, so people also know about them in case they're curious to look into them more.

37:31Another panel we also looked was about gigafactories in Europe, which was also an interesting panel looking at two, essentially two of the LFP-based gigafactories in Europe. Just coming up. One is called Freya. Another one called Being 11S. And we had two great panelists from there, one Heger from Freya and the manager from 11S. And also there was a bit of a link to recycling, so you might can touch on that as well. But essentially looking at some of the challenges from, you know, the investment costs to the space. You need all the people. How to bring all of this great talent to the very far north of Norway was also a question with Heger. How do you do the same in Serbia? And some interesting strategies I think both of these companies are employing at the moment. And also kind of looking at, in the case of Freya, how to essentially incorporate a technology which is developed elsewhere with 24M. And kind of try to scale up their production processes and things like that.

38:31So I think there was some really great insights as well with this panel. Might be one look into another panel we also had at the end. So I'm not just covering all of the ones apart from recycling for Mark. Another panel also was about the U.S. battery policies and responsible sourcing. It was also, I think, really timely with all the new Inflation Reduction Act of the development in the U.S. I think it was also important discussion, which I remember correctly from the panel. People were quite enticed to actually continue the conversation. So it seems like there's definitely more discussions needed on this kind of policy topics as well. And then maybe just to mention who was speaking there in case you want to have a look. We're very fortunate. We also had Alan Carey with us from Zircula. We had Emma. Let me just quickly check who we had on this as well. There's another one. Uljaviko was moderating from Roemotion as well. We had Emma Bishop.

39:30This is a nice person from Brand Strategies. We also had Steve Levine from The Electric, who many of you might know. I think this was also a really nice panel for anybody who's interested. Great. Mark, are you present at the moment? Can you hear us? Yes. Can you hear me? Just want to verify? Yes, you can hear me perfectly. Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Do you want me to quickly... Yeah, go ahead. ...to another panelist, or do you remember? Please. Please do. Yes, maybe just do it quickly. So we had just next to Mark, who will just be able to use us in a second. We also had Hans-Erik with us from Zircula Energy Storage. Another panelist also was too from Portray Cycling. And then we had, I think, let me just double check who else was there. Maybe you're faster than me. But I think it was, yeah, Max from Lees Cycle. And then, of course, you, Mark. Of course. Of course. So the panel, you were moderating, Simon, the panel, asking the hard questions.

40:30So I think the first question that came up was, where is the end-of-life EV battery going to end up in the value chain? Is the OEM going to have it? Is the third party going to have it? Is the consumer going to have it? Anyways, nobody really came to a conclusion regarding that topic. Nobody really knew where that would happen because, after all, there are very few end-of-life EV batteries in the value chain. So it's hard to be clear where that's going to end up. I remember Eric. So he started the panel, actually, with a short introduction, talking about how scrap rates are probably going to be lower than expected in the long term or the medium term. So recycling, there's less material for recycling for that. That was part of his opening statement. And part of my sort of quick opening statement was about how some of the challenges in recycling, battery recycling, are the word to put sodium sulfate or how to avoid creating that sodium sulfate.

41:36Companies like Johnson & Matthew, they actually sold their battery recycling unit because they couldn't overcome that. And, you know, my company, for example, Aquamedals has a background in lead acid. And they found that basically there's no market for sodium sulfate. You really have to process it. And that's very, you know, energy intensive. And that now saying on the panel that one kilogram of black mass in recycling produces one kilogram of sodium sulfate. And in typical battery manufacturing, you produce two tons of sodium sulfate. So three total tons, both in recycling and the manufacturing and the standard processing. So going from there, talking, the opening statements of both of us, the discussion regarding the OEMs. And again, at any time, if you have any questions, feel free to jump in and ask a question. And so Simon, there was a poll, I believe, regarding which technology will become dominant in battery cycling. In 2030, battery associates had this poll. So the poll options were hydro, pyro, direct recycling, or other.

42:54And I think we all sort of came to the conclusion that, you know, we would like to recycle. And although, you know, it's hard to really guess what that technology is. I think we just have to recycle, whether it's hydro, whether it's yet to be discovered or commercialized direct recycling, new operations, or pyro, which I know some people don't like that as much. Obviously, you don't recover the graphite. And that's a challenge as of its own. We still have to recycle until we have maybe the technology to use the hydro technologies for all of it at some point, maybe, perhaps. So that was sort of the gist to that point, I believe. And so some other discussions that were had, and again, I don't remember all of them because I was participating, not taking notes in it, was the U battery, the battery passport, U battery directive, which I know that Simon's playing some sort of role in that legislation or the legislative committee for that.

44:10So the discussion was, what do you think about the minimum recycling content? I think that I didn't think it was necessary. You know, I said, we're going to recycle these batteries. You know, I'm actually cycling right now. And, you know, I just passed a lead acid battery on the side of the road. You're not going to see an EV battery on the side of the road. You're not going to see a 200 kilogram EV battery. There's too much money there to leave the table. So they will be recycled. The regulations make it challenging because where is that supply? What technology is being used to actually create that minimum recycling for every single unit actually making those batteries that may not be easily available? What if one manufacturer wants to take all of the recycled material? So I didn't think that was necessarily useful. I think focusing made our technology more useful. And then another part of that is the, I think that Bianca talked about earlier, is the maximum carbon footprint.

45:17And I didn't think that was helpful either in the EU because after all, we haven't identified the supply with the low carbon footprint that actually can reach the EU. So trying to set maximum footprint when there isn't a technology to create that in those volumes doesn't make any sense at this point. So that's just not necessary, really. We need to create the supply, then we can focus on the technology, and then we can focus on the carbon footprint. So Hans had some different points. I know that the discussion was also about, again, if you have any questions, feel free to jump in and ask me at any point. But the other discussion was the American counterpart to the battery directive and the battery passport. I think that Eric talked a lot about that. I thought maybe the Inflation Adjustment Act would help some. I know that the tax credit, when I get into this, is a very different way of addressing a battery supply or forcing recycling than Europe.

46:29The fact that consumers don't get that $7,500 credit unless the supply is a certain percentage within the U.S. borders, that's forced more advanced recycling operations. And of course, other legislation, earlier registration, I don't remember the names of it, basically, you know, large grants for battery recycling, et cetera, have in the United States. It's a different way of approaching things. I know that California, of course, has her own legislation and works regarding, similar to maybe the battery passport type situation. I don't know the exact stats of that. Now, Simon, you have a better memory than you, than I do. What other parts of the panel do you remember that I don't? Thanks. Thanks. I think you did some great overview there for all these topics covered. Maybe just because you also mentioned this poll, and I think I'm also curious to get your thoughts on this again, because I just opened it up. So now it's closed when we had this question was, what do you think will be the dominating lithium and battery recycling technology by 2030?

47:41And I just got through the results. We had pyromatology, which you already mentioned, it's 11%. And of course, a lot of people still say it's needed, especially for end of life and things. Then hydrometology, which is 59%, almost 60%. Of course, we know, essentially, all of the new startups, we know about talking about some kind of form of hypermetology. Then we had direct recycling, which is 25%. So that's what I'm curious to hear from you and another 5%. So I'm just curious on these numbers, especially on the direct recycling, curious to maybe get your thoughts on this, Mark. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So actually, you and she's in China. So they have much more advanced in battery recycling than the rest of the world, basically, by regulatory reasons and maybe by cathetype and government incentives. But so direct recycling, she said that they were direct recycling manufacturing scrap. And I'm not sure if that's exactly correct, because typically, you direct recycle material, which has been delithiated, you relithiate.

48:45But there may be much more advanced in China than the rest of the world. The biggest challenge in direct recycling is that you have to really segment the supply in a very precise way, meaning you have to have the same cathetypes put together, segmented. You can't mix in any other cathetypes. And you may even need them for the same manufacturer, depending on, because they may be slightly different blends. The challenge, I think, is the offtake, meaning who's willing to take these recycled cathodes in volume? I think that, again, there may be, you know, if it's created in-house, that's one thing. But if you go outside to, you know, I don't know how many manufacturers want to qualify that redirect recycled material. So I think that was one of your questions. And other questions were about the 5% that were other. And so actually, I was part of the other in that discussion. I, since we're going toward electrification, I think that electrochemistry will play a bigger role.

49:58I call electrohydromyalgia in some of the recycling processes. Rather than using more chemical reagents and obviously, you know, pyro, we can actually use electrochemistry to meet some of these, you know, carbon footprint regulations. It makes more sense. You're generating, you know, there's cases where you can actually, you know, recycle the acids using electrochemistry. Essentially, you don't have to put any new acids in the system or very little acids in the system with that. And separating the metals, using electro winning rather than precipitation, which use chemicals. And again, you avoid that the sodium is all the issue with that. So I'm curious if that will be more prominent, especially the regulations, the EU encouraging that of some of the battery metals. The other thing is that, you know, in any, you know, I'm an extractive metallurgist. And with any value chain of any metal, not just battery cycling, you're going to have some hydro and pyro and typically an electrohydromyalgia. Now, the fact that there's carbon footprint regulation, I do think that will encourage more hydro, obviously, for a few reasons.

51:18And I'm, you know, and I think that, you know, if you want to, we want to recycle the graphite. And so there's going to be technologies. I know there's not really much recycled now. I know some of it's collected, but actually putting back the value chain, I haven't really actually seen any of that. Perhaps in China, it does happen in China. And that's another discussion altogether because there isn't public information regarding a lot of commercial operations about recycling. For example, we interviewed a candidate from China for our company. And we learn more about Chinese battery cycling than all the public information. So, yeah, so that's an interesting poll. People think that, you know, the hydro pyro will be the dominant. And it may be, but I think that hydro or electrohydromyalgia will become more prominent. I don't know that directly cycling is really going to be so viable in the long term within the next 20 years, to be honest. Those are my thoughts. Anybody else have any questions or thoughts?

52:21Simon, you're welcome to jump in at any point. Thank you. And also, I would definitely want to give it over to Bianca and Mariam if there's anything you want to ask. But because I think at this, I found this really fascinating what you spoke about with graphite on the day because it's something I really haven't, you know, come across so far yet. Because as you said, like, there's been love burning off and then maybe some of these kind of processes. But, like, how likely it actually is to really recover it in the state, which is good enough. But I mean, I don't know. I'm just curious. You still have to burn off some things and residues and, of course, the heat treatment and assets. So, yeah, this was something I haven't really thought about too much on the graphite, to be honest. That would be one thing. Anything else you can share? But then also the second thing, I mean, also we touched on LFP, of course, as well, which was a topic.

53:06Then another thing, though, I was curious about. Maybe I lost my thought on that. I think I just, the graphite I found quite, quite interesting. Yeah. Yeah, sure. I'd love to jump in about graphite. So, speaking to the, you know, the experts, people who actually work in the graphite field, the people who mine it and look at, say, end of life or recycled graphite, there's a morphology change in that material and a life versus where it starts. And it really, as far as I'm aware, again, I've talked to the graphite people. Now, Ascend Elements is something different. I don't know if that's true. They claim that they can recycle it. But typically, because of the change in morphology, you need to convert it. And now, convert to graphene. Graphene is actually a higher value product. And actually, there are actually some batteries that use graphene. So, turning back to graphite, I don't know that I've really seen that happening. There are some ways you can put in a small amount in, for example, new graphite or mine graphite.

54:16But I have not seen any recycled graphite, any scale. And I haven't seriously seen anybody provably doing that. So, that's one. And then, the LFP. So, actually, in China, there's actually, it's economic in China to recycle LFP. There's actually, I think, the cost per ton of LFP black mass is $3,500. So, there's actually a value in that. So, if you look at the literature on LFP recycling, you'll see hundreds of papers in that. And if you look in China, if you look in the West, there's going to be much fewer of those, in fact. And, you know, obviously, there are ways that, you know, I think that are economic to do that. I think one of the issues you have to keep, you have to really segment the iron for the lithium from the get-go. So, that's part of the strategy for making that economic. And there's a few strategies for that. Obviously, our company is exploring that. So, I can't go into more detail regarding that.

55:20But it's certainly as economic. China is doing it. And I believe it will be in the future. And just to add a question on economic recycling. So, my understanding is that most battery recyclers today, they're recovering the cobalt, they're recovering the nickel, but they're not yet actually recovering the lithium because it's not economical to recover the lithium. I'm just wondering, like, what is the roadblock there? Do we need to get us to a certain lithium price? Is there a technological breakthrough needed? When will we start recycling that part of the battery? Hi, Bianca. Thank you for your question. So, using pyromyalurgy, which is what most of the recycling is, in the pyromyalurgy, you have, say, a mat, which is the metal part, and then the slag, which is the oxidized part. And lithium goes into the oxidized slag. And, unfortunately, it basically goes along the other impurities, such as iron and magnesium oxides. And then some of the refractory materials, such as calcium, also end up there.

56:38And then if you want to gather that in a pyro process, you actually have to releach, typically a high temperature. Now, Umicore has tried this in the past, and they basically abandoned it by saying, look, this is not economic. We're going to put our lithium products in aggregates because there's no economic value to that. So, that's with pyromyalurgy. I don't know if that's really long-term. It's not really based on the price. It's just that you're used to be so much energy, both in energy like high temperature, pressure, acids, and multiple stages just to get that lithium. So, that's one with pyro. Now, second with hydro, and I do believe there are ways to economically recycle lithium from hydro or electrohydromyalurgy processes. Now, one of the challenges in a lot of these flow sheets is that a lot of the impurities could follow lithium. They end up, they're lower in the separation process. So, depending on how effective the separation processes are, again, there's many, many, there's lots of different flow sheets and how they actually recover lithium in the process.

57:47But I actually think it is economic. Now, getting to battery grade is another challenge altogether, and that could take years to get there to actually qualify. But it actually is economic. Who is actually producing economic at commercial scale in the West? I don't know that there really is at this particular point. But there is in China, but typically it requires a refinery. So, I have not seen any recycled materials that don't avoid a refinery at this point. Yeah, thanks for that. That's the only demonstration I've seen is at lab scale. So, Northvolt's done like lab scale recycling to a battery grade level. Yeah. So, this is another one of the challenges is that, and I talked about this on the panel, is that the qualification process is challenging. So, just because you're able to do something in a laboratory, put it in a coin cell, and, you know, do, you know, 500 cycles, 1,000 cycles, you know, get whatever 80% capacity or 90% capacity, that doesn't mean it passed a qualification process.

59:13You need to put it in a cathode, and that cathode has to be put in a battery cell. That cell is put in a pack. You know, then a battery management system that has to be put in a car. Someone has to drive that car. So, would you trust Northvolt? Would you drive Northvolt's material as it is right now? Probably not. Your car is going to break down. So, it's actually a long process to get that material such as provably can be used in your electric car, such that we don't have cars broken down on the side of the road that just like, oh, guess what happened? We got recycled material. Yeah, I just kind of gave out. This is where we are. So, we're at the walk from now. So, yeah, that's one of the challenges. Feel free to ask any questions. Absolutely agree 100%. Does everybody else have any questions regarding the panel, or just general questions about our recycling? Again, I know that LFP is challenging right now because a lot of the flow sheets, particularly in the West, are based on, you know, gaffed capturing, the nickel and cobalt.

1:00:20Lithium was a lesser focus up until recently. Nickel, lithium prices have gone up. And then, most ignored LFP. Not just because there wasn't the processes, just because it wasn't, it was a relatively small part of the value chain at that point. But because of that, they focused more, of course, regulations. And technology will get here to recycle that lithium in commercial scale. So, do you have any questions about the panel? Thank you, Maya. How about you? Mark, one question I do have, and you touched upon it a little bit earlier. Who is it that should be incentivizing the value chain to own that, you know, process of recycling and bringing recycled, you know, recycled batteries back into the value chain? Mark, one question. Mark, one question. Mark, one question. That's a, that's an interesting question. You have your, you have your manufacturers, both of the pre-cam, the cam material, the catholic material, the cells, the packs, the packs of battery value, you know, management systems.

1:01:37The auto manufacturers, who should be incentivized? That's, that's a very good question. I don't know. I know that Europe has its own solution to that, to be recycled. I think, well, if it, you know, I guess the question is, where's the bag going to go at end of life? Is it going to end up in a junkyard? Is it going to end up at the, you know, the auto manufacturer, the dealership? Is it going to end up, if something has enough value, it will be recycled. So I don't know. That's, that's going to be a question. I mean, there's going to be enormous batteries that are not going to be ended up, you know, side of the road. Who's, who's really the best person? I guess who has the best tools to extract that battery? So I would, I would say, or I would think that would be either a, the dealership slash the, you know, the manufacturer, because they can most safely remove that battery.

1:02:44So I think, I think if, if safety is the most important thing, I think it should be that person. It shouldn't be a third party. I realized that third parties ended up with some of these batteries, particularly the failed ones or the ones that are recalled, et cetera. But I think the, that should be the person for safety reasons. Thank you. Mariano, do you have any questions? Thank you. Do you have any questions, Mariano? I see you're on stage and does it have any questions regarding? Otherwise, sorry, Mariano, do you have another one? Yeah, but I'm just not sure how sensitive this question is, I guess. But, you know, in, in Asia, for instance, does the government own that, you know, that process or like the, the metrics associated with recycling the batteries, putting it back into the value chain or should that be private industry that's essentially driving that? I mean, that's, that's a good question. I mean, so China, China requires the battery cycling.

1:03:57There's not really any question about that. Now, if something has value to be recycled, I mean, that's my opinion. I mean, I have a mining background. If there's gold ore, someone's not going to leave it by the side of the road. They're going to get the gold from it. I say, equivalently, if there's high grade cobalt, nickel and lithium, people aren't going to leave these materials nowhere. I, I think if you over push the government, it actually limits some of the possible solutions to the problem. I mean, sometimes private industry has more creative solutions to problems than the government. Although maybe in the short term government may actually create more compliance, the private industry might have better solutions. For example, if we require a minimum recycled content, people are less likely to find maybe second life for the battery. Maybe second life is, makes a lot more sense. Maybe there's a lot more, you save a lot more energy for the society by go move these batteries a second life rather than force them to be recycled just to meet that 12% cobalt mark.

1:05:05So I, I'm a bit more of a private industry encouragement. Now, sometimes, for example, we're, we're not recycling the graphite mostly. And, and maybe that's the case, maybe we're, you know, we should have regulations that, Hey, look, you're at the final way to recycle this graphite or you're just, you're first, you're burning it. And then you're, you're leaving that money at the table. And then of course, you have to find that material typically from Asia that, or somewhere else to get the graphite. So I think there's cases for both, but I think that you should rely more on private industry for some of the innovative solutions because these things definitely have value. And that value is not going to disappear just because the government doesn't tell people to recycle things. Yeah, definitely agreed. Okay. Thank you so much, Mark. Thank you. I think that there are maybe some more panels that Simon wants to discuss here. Or maybe our Mariano has some thoughts. In case Mariano is not available right now.

1:06:09I think also one thing I would definitely like to do today is just think a bit ahead. Right. I think one thing I was actually looking for the clip from last year's battery day from James Swift, who also was there in the first panels, Bianca. Bianca mentioned, and we asked him also the end of the event, like, what are you expecting for the next year? What are we going to talk about in 2022? And it seems so far away, I have to be honest, a year ago, but essentially, he said, this will probably be the year of the US. The past year has maybe been the year for Europe and the coming year will be the year for the US. And now what we have seen with the Inflation Reduction Act, I think we've seen a strong push over there. So I think that's been exciting. So I'm just kind of looking on the one hand, looking kind of for, you know, what might be the next year for and I have, of course, my own suspicions and own thoughts, but I'm curious to hear others as well.

1:06:58But then also, I'm really curious for any topics you think we might should discuss next year. I'm in solid-state, which was one which we have covered two times already, because I think it's been relevant. But maybe it should be, we should prioritize some other topics. So I'm just curious here, maybe in the room, and we have also done last year, a bunch of different topics on data, like analytics, like more data, which of course, I'm sure I'm also really passionate about. It was really good, like a range of different topics. I'm just curious, maybe you can already make our lives a bit easier, kind of brainstorm with us what could be interesting topics for the coming year. I'm not sure if you're here, Bianca, but feel free to also. Chairman as well. I mean, as companies compete with each other more and more for their raw critical battery commodities, I'd be interested to understand more about like compliance with the modern slavery acts. You know, what does that actually mean?

1:08:01How are companies doing it? And as they go to more and more different suppliers, because demand is going to outstrip supply over the short term, at least, does that get more difficult when you go to the smaller players, the what they like to call artisan miners, which is basically just individuals doing it by themselves. And that's aggregated. Do you see that a lot in the DRC with cobalt and things like that? So maybe also a bit of the mining and we just had this mining dialogue, of course, earlier this year, which is kind of the reason why we left all of the mining topics without. But yeah, I think it's a good point. So, Maya, would you like to go next? Maybe I lost you for a second. Maybe Mark, would you like to go next? Yeah, actually, I have an idea. So, I know that people are exploring different ways to save energy in battery manufacturing. There's a lot of energy that could be captured or saved.

1:09:05And I'm curious, there's been different strategies, different companies that have explored ways to save energy in that. So, I would be more interested in that. Do you mean in production processes or raw materials or just in general? I think in production, obviously, you know, I'm often interested in raw materials too, but I think actually most of the energy is in the production. That's a good question. I mean, there's also the cathode, of course, and also energy intense, but yeah, production is also definitely a big one. Yeah, I think quality assurance as well of battery packs is going to be a topic. It's one of these things where as the US and Europe is looking to build more manufacturing capacity, it's going to be something where, you know, protocols, maybe standardization, some sort of harmonization might be brought up in the next few years. It's a great one. I think also now looking into all of these new countries who are moving into the market, who might not have, you know, so much experience with it.

1:10:08And of course, we have seen some issues also in India, recently where things then got banned for a while because of these safety concerns. So I think it's an important topic for sure. Marianne, are you with us? Yes. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes, we can. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Building on the Bianca's ESG, I think for next year, it would be great to have a panel on battery passport, because we are approaching 2026 more and more. And we have this year a pilot that would show next January. And I think next year would be the year of building the battery passport. That could be one. He explained also from India. I think India would be also very, very interested to have a panel because there are booming. And next year it would be, we would hear more news on that. One chemistry also, it's relevant now or would be relevant is sodium-ion. Also, I think recycling, of course, it's almost every year a need because we need to think about recycling and end of life.

1:11:29Because it's a, it's a hot topic in general, and we need to cover that. Thinking about data, we also on the, on the battery day, we also launched the battery cycler. That is 301. It's a software hardware and all of us was developed. It was in a deep dive on the battery day. My opinion, it's, it's a very, it's a huge advance on the options that you share with the, with, with the community. And anyone is interested could share on the, could Google battery cycle from battery associates. And you, you would see, and it's also now free for pre-order. It's also important. And two more projects that we share. It's the battery 101. With this, and the, on the last part of the battery day, you share, Simon, this, that we want to have thousand scholarships for next year. Hopefully we achieve. And, and also the battery map option. That is, all three very, very interesting projects from, from us and from the associates. And yeah.

1:12:56If we want, if you want to be involved, you can go to info at battery associates. But there's also things. Thanks so much, and I think that's an excellent point because for now we really focus on the panels, which also have been a big part of the event in six panels. But as you mentioned, there were a couple of other aspects of the event as well. So we had lots of networking sessions. So that's always really nice, but more like chat roulette style. You get connected to other participants and participants are quite popular. Just being told of the statistics now, how many people have connected, et cetera. But I can tell you quite a lot. We had about almost a thousand registrations for the event as well. Also as a highlight for over 60, I think 62 or something countries. So over 60, for sure, countries. So quite, quite interesting as well. And then Ross course had an interesting keynote also from Kronia cells. Also one of our gold sponsors.

1:13:51We had two gold sponsors. One was Kronia cells and one events search, which are really helpful for making this event freely available. It was also important to us to keep a great beach and keep these information out there. And sponsors really allow us to do that. So big things also to both of them. Then we also had a couple of different deep dives. I've got another one with Kronia cells and their Kro cell freestanding electrodes. It was an interesting production technique, what they developed and what they showcased. We also had a career session with events research, which was quite nice for any talent interested in that. Then we also had two BatteryMBA case study sessions. Also Mayana, of course, being heavily involved in BatteryMBA. It was really nice. One looking at European cell manufacturing, raw materials and one on the V market in India. And then we also had another deep dives. One was on the battery report. The comprehensive overview of the battery landscape is again from the Volta Foundation.

1:14:50Of course, we also work on this and they're really great and they're doing some exciting work there as well. And then we also had, as Mayan just said, this battery cycler relaunch in a way. All these new updates really, you know, great work by Ama and everyone else from the battery cycler. And Mukun from the battery cycle team also, of course, Mayano. And then we had one more session also more kind of a deep dive explaining the battery cycle recruitment and what's some of the challenges and opportunities in the space. Also, it's quite nice. And as we said, Mayana, we have this big goal for giving out 101 battery 101 scholarships by the next battery day. So it's a big push. We have started these BatteryMBA scholarships since the start. That's been really important to also increase diversity and make sure we have now, I think, about 40% or so, maybe slightly less now, and women participants across the courts, which are important to us.

1:15:42We want to also make sure we help to train the next generation of battery enthusiasts and experts. So, yeah, the battery 101 hopefully helps there and these scholarships on top of it can make it even more diverse as well. Great. I'm not sure, Ma'am. Otherwise, I think we're pretty much out of time. So maybe we can also wrap it up for today. But yeah, if anybody, maybe just one last thing, if anybody wants to see any of these sessions, actually, you can also get all of the recordings. So if people participate in the event itself, there was a pro and VIP ticket option. So you will get the recordings very soon. They're all ready. So you get them beginning of next week. And otherwise, you can also purchase them now on the website and we're going to put the website in the show notes. So just in case anybody wants to actually see the real panels and got interested, look there or just reach out to us as well.

1:16:33Happy to chat about it too. Mariam, do you want to wrap it up for today? I want to say thank you so much, Bianca and Mark Mariano. I know that Pooja had to leave, but thank you to Pooja if she could hear us. And very exciting insights from Battery Day 2022. What would be interesting is a year from now, when we look back at the topics that we discussed today versus the topics that we'll discuss in a year, how things have changed, maybe any new policies or use cases and so on and so forth. So that could be something interesting that we do. But otherwise, have a great weekend, everyone. And thank you, Simon. Thanks so much, everyone. And see you next month or the first Saturday of the month for another exciting session. We already got some speakers confirmed. So look forward to that. See you all next month. See you. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Thank you.