Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - PFAs and regulation

0:00Transcript

0:00Great! Maybe with this we can get started and then I'm sure other people join for time as well. I'm so glad you'll be here again for our battery revolution slash battery insiders podcast. We've been running these now for over two years or so. Today's our 60th session and we have delighted to have a great guest speaker here with us, Sriram, who are at least in a moment. Let me just quickly mute everyone at the time. That'd be awesome. Perfect. Thank you both. And yeah, so we are here from battery insiders and our aim is to bring lots of Battery Insiders knowledge to the rest of the community or anybody who is interested, all these battery enthusiasts out there. And for today we're going to go into a bit more technical topic of PFAs and perfluor acyl substances. And I think Sriram will give us a bit of a rundown what that actually means and maybe what that can be used for. And then of course it's also an interesting time to talk about it because there's regulations coming and potential changes and I think that there's quite a bit of debate in the industry. So I think it's an interesting snapshot to also have this discussion as well. And I'm not just here by myself, I'm also joined by Mariam co-hosting this session and this podcast. And yeah, super excited to have her and quickly want to go to our speaker because of course that's what we're here for. And yeah, we're very delighted to have Sriram with us who has quite a bit of experience on these related topics. I will let you maybe introduce yourself yourself because I think that might be the ease if that's okay for you Sriram.

1:35I'm excited to have you and over to you. Thanks very much Simon. Thanks very much Mariam for co-hosting this event and for the speaking invitation. So I'm Sriram. I'm CSO, so Chief Marketing Officer, Chief Sustainability Officer for a company called Blue Solutions. The company is making solid-state batteries for mobility and smart grid applications. It's part of a large group, the French Boulogic Group, a family owned company making more than 20 billion euros of annual revenues. I've been in the automotive industry for 10 years now, always in charge of marketing and innovation related activities and regulation influences a lot, product development, future products and automotive applications. So I mean, I've been in this space for the last few years and very exciting to see that battery space will be probably challenged with this new PFAS regulation. Fantastic. Thank you. Maybe if you could maybe introduce a bit like the topic of PFAS. I assume a lot of people have never heard about that, you know, to be honest, probably something I haven't thought about too much before, even though I studied chemistry and also did my PhD there, etc.

2:50But I think it's maybe a bit of a niche topic for many. So maybe if you could just quickly introduce the topic or give a bit of an overview, the relevance of this topic, and if you'd like also to be a bit bit in the speculation you mentioned. Sure, I can. So what are PFASs? So PFAS stands for perfluoro or polyfluoroalkyl substances. So that is actually any substance that contains one fully fluorinated methyl or methylene carbon atom. So that means any CF3 or CF2 carbon atom attached to any other kind of components. Okay. They represent around 4,000 to 10,000 products as of now. And they are used in many, many industries and applications. So what happens is that they have a specific kind of property, nonstick, waterproof, heat resistant, and they have been used in many industries since the early 50s, in many industries such as textile industry, food packaging, firefighting forms, cosmetics, even. Many cosmetics are using this PFAS. And today the problem encountered by regulation bodies in Europe and the US is that they can potentially have an influence on health. Okay. And we don't really understand yet.

4:12Maybe we can discuss a little bit about that later on today. And they try to regulate, and step by step block their usage because of their adverse impact on health and the environment. Great. Thanks for sharing. And maybe you can also share like maybe some of the different ways PFAs are used right now in the battery industry. If that would be okay. Oh yeah, sure. It's a key topic for the battery industry because they are used in the battery space as of now. Mainly one component called PVDF. We found them as binders on the cathodes of batteries and they are used because they have lots of applications. They allow for better performances, better ionic conductivity, and they also allow for, thanks to their, like I mentioned, thermal resistance and so on, a better aging of those products as of now. It's not only PVDF. We found many other components like PTFE, you know, PTFE is also a PFAS. They can be used on electrolytes, but also on any ceiling components that we can find in batteries. Great. Thanks for sharing from, from binders.

5:30And also I think like NMP, right? Solvents, additives, you know, a range of different ones, EC, DC, PC, so like a lot of different parts of the battery from electrolyte to binders to, yeah, editors. Exactly. And maybe a bit of a question, right? Because I understand also what you mentioned, right? There's concerns, right? Like also reasons why you want to replace them, like a bit of them. And how easy is it like to, have you seen it like replace it with other turn-difts? So of course, people always try, right? Other processes, water-based solvents and things like that, or like water-based processes. Like how challenging is it to get it done? So that's a, that's a very good question. And that's part of regulation that's taking place in Europe. Maybe if we can take a step back and look at the regulation, what happens is that beginning of 2020, a few countries, namely Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden now, and driven by the ECHA are proposing this PFAS ban in Europe, okay? And this cannot be simply banned, of course, it's a very long process regulation. There are lots of consultation that needs to be done, lots of specialists industry experts that are listened in this process. So what happens is that if ban there is, because the regulation is not passed yet, it is due for growth in 2025, and for actual entry into effectiveness in 2026 to 2027. And if there is a ban, there might be two different options, a full ban or a ban based on specific derogations. And this is where I'll be able to get into your point, Simon. There will be derogations. It cannot be a full ban because today, as of the battery space is discussed today, we don't have any alternatives for those PFAS, such as PVDF, PTFE, and all the other binders that we can find in batteries. And in terms of time frame and derogations that Europe is discussing at this moment, if the industry is to find an alternative, there might give five to 12 years of derogation timeline for entering to force in this specific battery space for the application of the regulation.

8:06So Sriram, what does that timeline look like for deregulating and then eventually, is the idea to eliminate PFAs altogether in the supply chain or in the use of any of the materials for batteries? FDA like the FDA in the US, right, Lian? Say again, Sriram? You're talking about North America, right? I know North America, yeah, they're looking at PFAS elimination. Yes, exactly. The US has a more pragmatic approach. It's a very interesting point that you're highlighting now. Maybe we can take a few seconds to talk about those regional differences. PFASs are identified globally. Okay. So it's actually a global issue. And North America is regulating it as much as Europe is willing to regulate that. But the US has a more pragmatic approach in the sense that if there is no alternative, it is okay to still continue using that. Plus, there are several industries where the ban of the PFAS might not be applied. Or even there is a third option, which is we do not ban the full list of up to 10,000 PFASs that exist around the world. Okay. So this is the pragmatic and maybe business approach used in North America, taking into account, of course, the impact on health and environment and trying to ban what can be stopped in the short and medium term, and allow for companies and industries to integrate alternatives when they exist. What is happening now in Europe is that they have for the first time a non-inclusive approach. Actually, the initial ban for PFASs has been driven because of the amount of PFASs that exist in textile, in food application, in water, in the environment, and so on. And step by step, Europe looked into all the potential risks, all the potential components, and included among this, as part of this move, the automotive industry. And their position today is that they list up all those 10,000 components, and they wish to ban all of them, all of them, which is not the case of the approach in North America at this moment. So how does this affect, you know, for, let's say for batteries, battery materials, and the supply chain, there has been a lot of innovation in the past couple of years, especially to try to scale up these battery technologies, scale up manufacturing. Do you see that if they're banning the PFAS, batteries, that the battery industry will have to start over and a lot of the research and development efforts to find, develop, buy materials? Yes, alternatives. Yeah, it's a very good point.

11:11So, you know, many large companies have invested and are still investing lots of money in those PFAS. You know, for example, in France, there are two companies, large companies making such projects like Arkema and Solvay. And one of those two companies is starting this year, a very large plant to anticipate the ramp up of the battery space and the automotive industry. If we just take a step back and look at the global picture, the scale up did not yet happen, actually. When you look at the automotive industry, the electric vehicle ramp up is still to come. It's a big challenge for car manufacturers. And when you look now at the supply chain, as you mentioned, it's the same challenge. The scale up is yet to come. Millions of battery packs needs to be produced from now on in order to reach, among others, the final target of having only pure EVs as new vehicle sales from 2035, at least in Europe. So scale up is still to come and investments are huge, including in those products right now. So it's a huge challenge for the industry. And they cannot even think about what I'm saying is that they are putting so much effort into making things work at the right quality cost and delivery timing that the automotive industry is looking for at this moment. That the fact that there is no alternative existing in the market, it's a huge issue for the battery space. Because there is lots of, what this means is that there is lots of effort in terms of R&D resources that needs to be put into looking for alternatives before you can even think about finding something which is performance in terms of expectations for the automotive industry, in terms of durability and environmental friendly products, and so on and so on. So what is happening right now in the battery space? But again, the full PFS ban potentially is something that Europe is preparing. So what the European ecosystem for batteries is now doing is that they are preparing what we call an exemption proposition for the battery space that will defend the case of battery players. And so that to explain that there is no alternative as of now for in in the market and how this might hinder, actually, the objective of Europe, which is to give a an independency in terms of industries, right? Europe is putting lots of effort at this moment and last years to bring back companies, bring back industries, and to build up this European ecosystem and independencies.

14:08And at the same time, the exemption documentation would be arguing that having such a regulation put in place would hinder the potential investments that will happen in Europe. Thank you so much, Suram, for that overview. I do have a question touching on collaboration, but I'm wondering if, Simon, you have questions relating to the policy elimination of PFS. Maybe just one at this point, just because you just mentioned coming back from Korea, and I think, just curious, because you mentioned also the global topic, and you've spoken about Europe and the US and America. I'm just curious also if you have any insights where how other regions are handling it or addressing it at this point? I would say currently lagging a little bit behind, lagging a little bit behind. It has been identified, of course, but, you know, most of those Asian countries except for Japan, of course, are still in a development phase and investing a lot in those companies. And those companies and those countries are willing to take over, thanks to the opportunity that is given on LA. And again, this is a business and more automatic approach that is taken in those countries. And really, the one which is challenging the global industry is clearly Europe at this point.

15:30So, okay, great. Thanks for this insight. Maya? Maya, actually, I was going to touch on a similar topic, which is collaboration. So, are you seeing that in the battery industry, I know that there may be an exception in Europe, but are you seeing that this could push for further collaborations instead of competition with battery companies coming together to try to find alternatives, alternative materials, alternative components for each of the battery technologies? I love this question, Mariam. Just before answering to that point, again, the regulation is not passed yet, at this moment. It should be voted in 2025 and potentially effective from 2027 now. And again, if the exemption documentation reports built by the European ecosystem is valid and providing a derogation and potential slide of the timeframe for the ecosystem. It might be effective in 2023, if the ecosystem only gets a five-year derogation, or from 2037, if you obtain a 12-year derogation. And the last potential scenario is a full derogation with no time application and compulsory deadline, which is not very realistic, I would say.

17:12So, everything is still happening. It's a very, very hot topic in Europe. Nothing is less sure and very difficult to say that either it will be indeed very, very surely banned by the regulation bodies. But again, when we look at it from the market and the analysis standpoint, Europe is very strong and willing to have an all-inclusive approach. So it's not a scenario that you can put aside with the 0% chance of happening. And we cannot say as well for sure that the ecosystem will obtain the derogation that they are asking for. Okay. And if I come back again on the effort that is being put by the ecosystem at this moment, by ecosystem, I mean really the industry or the better industry, at this moment in terms of research and investment in industries, insights to make the scale up happen in the coming years, in the coming years, they are not yet organized to find and propose alternatives. Now, why do I love your question?

18:21Why do I love your question? It's because of the opportunity that is behind. Even if currently there is no alternative for those components in the battery industry, there is an opportunity if we put in place the right ecosystem, the right partnership, like you mentioned, to find and to find and propose something which is better in terms of performances, better in terms of environmental impact and still durable and still good in terms of rigidity, strength and permanent performances to replace those components in the batteries. But again, the actors are not yet organized in that sense at this moment. That makes a lot of sense. One thing that pops to mind now is I'm seeing a lot of gigafactories for battery manufacturing, either battery cell or battery pack manufacturing, especially for EVs. Of course, in Europe and in North America, of course, in China and all around the world. But how does this uncertainty relating to the regulation of PFAS elimination affect the building of these gigafactories?

19:38You know, does that even have a sway at all? So there is a very high risk. And at this moment, it is not impacting those gigafactories. It is not impacting the factories that will build the batteries. It is not impacting the current. It is not impacting the current. It is not impacting the factories that are going to produce. They are not taking into account the potential impact of this regulation yet, because again, there is no alternative whatsoever to the PFAS that are used in the battery space as of now. So for the ecosystem, the different industries, the companies that play in this field, it's very unrealistic to see this regulation pass, to see this ban pass. So it's not impacting at this moment the bigger factory building that's happening either in Europe or in North America. And again, North America probably is not going to block the battery space. You know that they have been very supportive of their local and national industry, in particular the EV industry and the battery space for that matter.

20:58And I don't see a PFAS ban for that space in North America. But if I can maybe give an example of why it's still a risk in Europe. There are other PFAS that are used in other components and systems in an electric car or even a combustion engine car. I will give you one example. It is the air conditioning system. The air conditioning system is based on the refrigerant that changes phase, gas, liquids. And by this change of phase, you attract or emit heat. And this is the base of the air conditioning system in cars. What is happening is that this refrigerant in the car is a PFAS. Currently in Europe, it's a product called R1234YF, which is an HFC or HFO based refrigerant. And this one, this product has a natural alternative that exists in the market. Actually two. One is called R744YF, which is the technical name for CO2. And the second one is R290, which is propane. Okay. Those two refrigerants are used in commercial vehicles already in China, in the electric bus, air conditioning and heat pump systems.

22:41And mainly heat pump systems because the two refrigerants that I mentioned are very good properties in heat exchange for heat duration in the cabin for the passengers. And this alternative existing already in the market. Europe is actually telling the automotive industry ecosystem that, hey guys, there is the alternative. So, you will not get 12 years or maybe you will not even get five years of the location for that one. As this technology already exists, we would like you to integrate that upfront in your vehicle. Okay. And what is in the approach of Europe supporting the case is the fact that Volkswagen, the OEM and their platform MEB, on which are based the ID.3, ID.4 and so on, have, you know, the heat pump as an option. And this heat pump system is using already R744. So basically the position is that, okay, there it is the alternative. There is something. So you should implement that. And there is a push of the regulatory bodies and a pressure to have this air conditioning and heat pump system replaced to these natural alternatives to the existing ones, which are PFAS.

24:19And the next platforms. Okay. And what is happening at this moment is an analysis on car or inside on how to make it happen at the right cost, at the right quality performances, because it is still a technological challenge. So this is just one example to illustrate the fact that even in the automotive industry, even in the electrification, which is still to come, the scale is still to come. There is a large pressure in another perimeter than the batteries, which is the air conditioning and heat pump system for the cars to implement since it exists the alternative. But theبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبدبد quantity with multiple players having solutions and so on. So those products are quite expensive today. And maybe not even available for a large scale up of those products for all OEMs in Europe. So Europe is very pushy in that aspect. And again, to answer your question, at this moment it is not impacting the Gigafactories building and the ecosystem players for the batteries at this moment.

26:09But I identify it as a huge risk to come because I've seen it happen in other sectors like the air conditioning cycle. Thank you so much for sharing. I think that's also an interesting point, right? Like how to navigate something like this in the best way, right? Because of course you always have some parties, of course, will be more incentivized by either outcome, right? So some companies, of course, are big producers. For them, of course, it's the easiest to just keep business as usual. Some other companies maybe have a big upside if something else hits off and they are able to develop something else and make a big business out of it. So I think there's always different drivers, right? And then, of course, regulation is looking at a way to get the best outcome, hopefully, right, for the citizens itself. So, but then, as you say, it could also be a hindering block maybe for some innovation and push innovation in other countries. So, yeah, I'm just kind of curious, like, how do you see, like, to navigate this and get the most accurate, like, information for each of the stakeholders who needed?

27:10I think a very interesting thing to do from European subvention and grants, you know, there's lots of those happening. There are lots of investments and small groups getting subvention from Europe, like Horizon 2030 and so on, which study many innovations, including battery solutions, the battery for the future. And among those groups, I think it would be great that there is initiative from the ecosystem players, the battery ecosystem players to initiate as soon as possible research for alternatives. And this is very, probably difficult to foresee in the coming months or in the next year, I believe. And what will happen is, again, they are putting so much effort, resources, and money into the scale-up that is needed at this moment. But they are not yet able to organize themselves to look into alternatives in the proper team, in the proper research and the proper co-development approach. So, probably from now to the next two years, they will try to put their focus and effort into the exemption documentation to prove that possibly in the process of making batteries, in the process of making the packs and so on, you mentioned the solvent, the organic solvent just before Simon, that there is very limited impact on health and environment.

28:57And that all the PFAS are only found in the batteries, okay, there is no leakage and so on. And that they plan to recycle because in parallel there is all the recycling regulation that's taking place. And that they are able to retrieve and replace and manage all the, all the, all those losses and all those components that they can find in the batteries before implementing them in a secondary application or a second life, possibly. So, I don't see the players probably organizing themselves to find solutions in the coming one or two years because of the challenges that they see in the same timeframe, which is making it happen. First of all, the scale up of EVs, the scale up of batteries. And secondly, proposing this exemption case, explaining that it's very critical for Europe to, to maintain those products. And as the, there is no alternative in the batteries as of now. That's great. Maybe just one quick follow up if I may, because I think that's interesting point, right?

30:12To have like the full life cycle assessment, right? And I think, I mean, just one example, right? When we, maybe, you know, we find like, maybe like a more environmentally friendly process, right? To produce something. But then if the battery doesn't last as long, right? It would be less, much shorter. Of course, then you also have an environmental burden that we cannot use it as long, right? We have to recycle it earlier, get it back and kind of, if you actually have a longer life, maybe then the overall life, you know, like when we do life cycle assessment, actually be, be in a favor, right? To maybe have a process in the beginning, which wouldn't be as environmental as another process, but the product lasts very longer than it's been on this case. Exactly. So I think it's very interesting. It's very complex when you have these. Exactly. I think the exemption only makes sense. If you take the full life cycle approach, indeed, there is no meaning in just saying, you know, there is no alternative in the markets today.

31:05There is no technological path that will, that could be a solution for replacing those products in the batteries. It's too, it's too easy. And that we're too comfortable just to protect that current business cases, that current investments. The exemption case could only make sense. Indeed, if you look at the full life cycle of the product, and you explain how by the end of life, or by anticipating the end of life, and so on, how would you minimize the impact on the environment? You know, they are called, those PFSAs are called forever chemicals. Because of fluoride as this tendency, of course, of attaching to anything everywhere and just staying forever in this environment. And that's why we would call them like that. So how you minimize the pollution at every step of production initially, and then at the end of life management of those batteries is very important from my standpoint. And as you mentioned, Simon, in the exemption cases. Great, thanks. Mariam, did you have something else?

32:18Just a quick question regarding, would this regulation affect all types of battery innovations equally? So let's say solid-state versus lithium-ion, or is there a higher percentage of PFAs, for instance, in a certain type of battery technology versus another? Again, very, very interesting question. And it's part of the discussions that needs to happen with all the players in this topic. There is currently a misunderstanding that solid-state batteries do not use any PFAS. So when you really read the documentations from Europe and so on, one can understand that solid-state technology or solid-state batteries are a path to a non PFAS batteries as an alternative. So what you can understand from that is that potentially in some people's mindsets, and maybe in some people building this regulation mindset, is that there is alternative to PFAS for the battery space, which is not the case today. Okay. And when you look at new battery technologies, mainly solid-state or, you know, recently we hear a lot about sodium-ion batteries and any kind of future batteries.

33:50As far as I know, those batteries also use PFAS in their composition as of now. As binders on the cathode, as binders and any other application and function in the electrolyte, for example. So that's still happening in the new battery technologies that the industry will see in the longer term, such as solid-state or any other. Yeah. And that's really interesting because that could really affect the, you know, the choice of battery technology. And it just came to mind when you were talking about that, because it seems like there already is so much risk now for battery manufacturers and EV manufacturers with the scale up efforts, just like you mentioned. We're not even at scale up yet. There are so many challenges relating to scale up. Now with the uncertainty about introduction of new policies, all the risks associated with development of new innovations, but also trying to balance it with the environmental effects of PFAs. Yeah. It seems like a really important question to ask.

35:09Yes. Yes. And at the same time, probably we should look into how to understand why we believe PFASs have an impact on health and environment. Of course, there are lots of areas showing that already. And the fact is that they remain for a long time everywhere on water and even they are found as well on people's blood, you know, but probably. It's also very important to clearly identify, understand and explain to the industry and everyone how much people are exposed to those chemicals and how harmful they are. Exactly. You know, currently there is this ban putting in place, but how to manage and explain that because of their presence in the drinking water, because people are already exposed today. They are exposed to those in the drinking water they have in air, in soil, in wildlife and fish, you know, where you find those components. So what is the exact impact of those products on health and environment needs also from my standpoint to be clearly explained.

36:33And there is an education approach, which is probably necessary as well. Thank you so much, Sriram. So, you know, I'm wondering in terms of audience questions, does anyone have a question? If you do, just raise your hand, we'll bring you on stage or you can ask your questions in the chat as well. We appreciate it's rather complex topic. But yeah, if anybody has any other ones they want to share, maybe also, of course, asked lots of questions already. Please, please do so. It's again also in the chat. If you just want to put a question there, we can also ask it for you. No problem at all. Otherwise, also, I think, I think we covered a lot of ground already. Maybe just maybe one question for you on a personal home as well, Sriram, like what do you hope could be, you know, happening? Oh, I see, I think one other person here. Naomi, do you have a question you would like to ask? Sure.

37:20I mean, thank you so much for allowing me to come up. Are there alternatives to the battery tech that don't emit like either lead or PFAS or any of that? I mean, is there an alternative that's also efficient? Currently, thanks for your question, Naomi. Currently, even before talking about efficiency and performances, there is no identified alternative to the chemicals currently used, those PFAS currently used in the batteries. Even perovskite is like, although it's not at scale yet, even that's not even vaguely an option. I know some perovskite is with lead, but then they also have some with aluminum and tin. So when I mentioned not yet at scale, I'm looking into the big picture of the automotive industry, right? The big step in terms of electrification of a passenger car is happening now. It's going to happen between now and 2035, where 100% of the new cars needs to be pure battery electric vehicles and not even plug-in hybrids, not even any kind of hybrids.

38:35Pure EVs. But of course, even if it's the scale up as I talk on my side is yet to happen. Of course, there is more than 20 years of history in electrified mobility in the world. When you look at the size of the electric vehicle market in China and even the current size of the vehicle market in Europe and the US, you have lots of electric cars. You know, we reached more than one million EV sales per year last year, I believe, in Europe. Tesla has reached more than two million EVs sold when you look at the history of sales. So the electric vehicle market is already has already attained a certain size today. And this market is already using those components in their batteries. 100% of those vehicles and these batteries are using those PFSS. Thank you. That's very difficult to find the alternative because of the properties and the roles that they play. Right. So we mentioned that they are used on the cathode of batteries because they help to disperse the active material and the conductive additives in the solvent during the fabrication process.

39:57The production process and the production process and the allow for a good distribution. They hold the active material. OK, and they connect them to the current collector and they need to have the strength and textile robustness and thermal resistance in the batteries. And they also act as interfaces. It's a very important role that they play in batteries of interfaces between the electrolytes and the electrodes. And again, there is no alternative for them as of now in the markets because it's very difficult to find products with similar properties without the fluorine inside. It's a little difficult to keep track because there seems to be a lot of disturbance in the background. Yes. Sorry for that, Naomi. I'm traveling and I'm currently in an airport lounge for this call. Ah. Great. Thanks, Hiram. And I think hopefully, Naomi, you got the answer you were looking for. I mean, basically, it doesn't look very good and it seems like we're transitioning into an industry and it's not to solve one problem, but we're creating another.

41:20It doesn't seem like a real solution. No, we don't have a solution as a firm that's completely right. And this is why the current players do not expect probably. I cannot speak for them, not for all of them, of course, but I guess we are not seeing this regulation pass. And that's a possibility that this regulation is exempting its application for the batteries. But again, when I look at what happened in different other perimeters of the automotive industry, I believe this risk still exists. Great. Thanks for sharing. I'm wondering in the interest of time if anybody else has any questions. If not, this is absolutely fine as well. Well, I see one. Oh, yeah. No, thank you. Thank you. Much appreciated. Yeah. I think with this, maybe also would be a good time to wrap up for the day. I think there's a lot of ground already covered. I guess this will be a continuous developing story. I mean, you mentioned 2025. So, you know, it's still some time to also see how these things develop.

42:29But of course, there's a consultation phase. And I guess also other stakeholders will probably share the insights. But I can just say, I really appreciate sharing your insights here and choosing this topic also to our listeners. And I guess people interested can also read into it more or maybe connect with you, Slyon, if you open to that on LinkedIn and other platforms to get kind of more insights there as well. That would be my pleasure. In terms of timing or what to look into maybe this year is going to be, as you mentioned, Simon, the consultation phase, which starts in a few days actually. Europe is opening the consultation phase from the 22nd of March until the 22nd of September of it's a six months consultation before the CHA, the European Chemicals Agency is making up its final opinion and validating in 2025. So, thank you for sharing these dates. I think they're important to keep in mind. And yeah, anybody who took notes, we might also put some of the links and dates for that in the show notes for anybody who wants to read into it more or maybe get involved.

43:40Mariam, any final words from your end? This was just such an interesting topic because it was not on my radar. I know in North America, you know, I had heard the splashes here and there talking just in different industries, you know, water treatment and so on relating to PFAS. But this really stretches your mind to show you just how much, how nuanced some of these topics are, how complex they are to make decisions in the battery industry. So thank you so much, Sriram, for introducing the topic to us. And I'm sure there will be a part two, part three, part ten throughout the years as we learn more and more about the policies. Thank you, Simon. And thank you, Mariam. Thank you to all participants. It was a pleasure to be here with you. Thanks, everyone. Speak soon. Thank you, everyone. Take care, everyone. Take care. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye.