Battery Insiders Reflection - US battery supply chain and LFP batteries

0:00Transcript

0:00Welcome to Battery Insiders, your podcast providing you insights and the fascinating world of batteries. Hosted by Bhavya Jha and Simon Engelke. And we're back, everybody. Thanks again for joining us on another episode of Battery Insiders. My name is Pavia and I am here with Simon. And we are in our usual places today. New York is facing a bit of a heavy snowstorm and I believe Simon is dealing with a little bit of a more pleasant climate. How is it going over there? Yeah, over here, it's actually sunny today. So no snow in sight, which is good. And yeah, I'm excited to reflect on this episode. Sounds like a good day to talk about batteries. What are your thoughts? I think we had a really interesting conversation with John from ABF, the American Battery Factory. And they're doing some really interesting work. I think for those who are just tuning in for this portion, a little bit of context. ABF is going to be producing LFP battery cells in Tucson, Arizona.

1:19Their factory is well underway, should be ready in about 18 months. And they're partnering with Lion Energy based in American Fork, Utah, to better understand this technology, innovate around it, and create batteries for multiple purposes, whether it's critical infrastructure or even batteries that could be used for military preparedness and defense technologies. Which is the first I think we've heard of this type of topic on our battery conversations and on battery revolution discussions. And so I thought that was particularly interesting to me as somebody who has studied international relations and national security. It's really exciting to be talking about the ties that batteries have to these different interests of mine. But what did you think, Simon? Yeah, I think it was an interesting conversation. I think with this podcast, I was trying to bridge the different topics and boundaries, maybe of what people think is related to batteries. And I mean, of course, we spoke about a planned factory, right? So that's very spot on. But I think it was interesting to have this background from John Cam, right?

2:33Who's the new president of the American Battery Factory. And to hear, of course, his military background and, of course, hear from infrastructure, right? He has quite a lot of experience and quite impressive examples he could give there in the recording. And I think thinking about how different backgrounds, you know, now moving into the battery sector, which I think we're quite passionate about. And I think it's always great to see. And I think even with BatteryMBA and other support programs or trainings, executive trainings we're providing, we can see that as well, right? To see those different backgrounds joining, which I think is super fascinating. And yeah, as you said, right, it's interesting to look at it from a military perspective and then also look at it from a national security standpoint, which I think is often the discussion in the US. So in Europe, we speak a lot about sustainability and, you know, I think supply chains and things like that. And if you're in the US, there's a lot of discussion about, you know, how to, from a national security standpoint, how to make sure that materials are available and can, you know, be processed and can be used.

3:38And there's no other region or country which can block too much of that if this is a critical infrastructure technology from mobility and energy standpoint going forward. Right. He, you know, he talked about security as honestly, like in twofold, one, the security of the supply chain and to the use of the technology that that supply chain will create this battery and its use therefore in the security of national interests. So I thought that was very, if meta, if you will, but I mean, that's kind of the big discussion in battery world right now, right? Like supply chain, what's made in, what is real, what does it mean to be made in America? You know, he talked about, we even discussed like a more piecemeal approach to this because just because it's going to be hard for something to be fully made in America when right now those raw material supply chains are also still developing. And so I think he made some interesting points and comments about that and how that will require, you know, some scaling.

4:46It's going to take some time. And in that way, these, this all American supply chain will be piecemeal for a while until those supply chains are really built out and really robust. So I think that's just going to be something that, I mean, that's the space that this, that this industry has been keeping an eye on for a while and things like the IRA do help enhance it. I think for ABF specifically, maybe the benefits of the IRA will come later when they're actually, you know, selling their batteries on the market and reaping the benefits of some of the tax credits that are in the IRA. There, this is definitely based in an area that, you know, geographically in an area of the country that is undergoing massive energy transition. The labor force is dramatically changing and retraining. And I think he made some really interesting points about that. You also, you know, Simon, you mentioned his military perspectives. I was initially like peaked, what piqued my interest was that as, as while serving in the army with the army Corps of Engineers, he had worked on hydro and hydropower and had kind of touched energy as, you know, an army engineer.

5:59But I think that this battery pivot has been something that's maybe perhaps new to his career. But there are definitely so many unique learnings that he brings from his 35 plus years of experience serving that I'm very excited to see where ABF goes. And hopefully we'll be hearing more from John in more battery forums going forward as well in the US. Yeah. And I think maybe one thing to add, because it reminded me of some conversation I had years ago with DARPA and we were like, it was part of some conversations and other forums. And I think what is interesting, I think from an innovation standpoint, right, I think there was also because, I mean, of course, the military has been a big catalyst for a lot of technologies, you know, and, you know, GPS and things. And I've been really heavily involved in the past for, and still, I guess, currently developing and pushing boundaries of technology. And battery is actually one of the topics where I think the US military was evaluating it and realized that the volume would be so much higher in the consumer market that the real, you know, the innovation, et cetera, will probably come from that.

7:08So, you know, the US has been with DARPA, et cetera, have been looking at the technologies which need their help to kind of scale and their help to be, you know, as competitive or pushing the boundaries. And just from a volume, right, you can look at the consumer electronics industry. The electronics industry had so much more need for batteries than the military at the time to actually, you know, really pushing this forward. So that's why the military became rather than a big pusher of the technology more a consumer. At least that's where the conversation I remember, it's quite a while ago. But I think that's always interesting, right, to see, like, what the role is here. And I think here, I mean, he was mentioning about some applications, right, of batteries in the military use and, like, you know, being less visible and things like that, noise and heat signatures and things like that. And I think probably the military now is maybe more on the integration than actually technology building new kind of battery chemistry, right?

7:57Personally, for example, I know there's some battery chemistries which are mainly used in military applications. But mostly, I think, you know, it's more conventional. Like, even here, look at NFP, et cetera, right? So, but yeah, I think it's interesting, as you mentioned, from a technology perspective, also who are the drivers of these different technologies. And the point you just mentioned, like, takes me back to our last episode on AI. And I also mentioned this during our Clubhouse chat that AI requires certain kinds of batteries because it's more intensive on the battery. They just need to be more energy dense. And so battery technology is evolving to meet those needs. And I'm sure, clearly, rather, in the same way battery technology is doing the same for military requirements and demands and needs for innovation. And so definitely going to be interesting to see how, where ABF kind of finds its niche in the market and which customers, who become its biggest customers, I imagine it'll be a lot of, you know, defense-related organizations and military organizations.

9:08But, you know, there's plenty of opportunity for it to become a big energy storage battery as well. And, you know, some of the more common uses that we see for batteries. So I don't know. We'll see. I'm curious where the direction that ABF takes after its factory is ready. But I know that when we talked about the end-of-life plan for the batteries, it seems like that's also a big conversation for ABF. And, you know, recycling is definitely on their mind. I think they're a little bit more in their nascent stages, perhaps, of figuring out what that end-of-life plan looks like. But, you know, there's so many recyclers popping up in North America that I imagine partnering with one of them or eventually bringing that expertise in-house will not be their biggest, will not be their biggest obstacle, if you will. And so with all that, I think it was actually a very interesting conversation. And I think we learned, it was really awesome that we got to get a little bit of his personal experience and perspective in our conversation as well, alongside, of course, learning about the battery technologies that AFB is, or ABF rather, is producing.

10:27Maybe just a quick thought, right? So I think also from application, right? I mean, yeah, we'll be seeing where it's used. But I think also if you look at Lyon Energy, right, which is kind of a sort of partner there. And, you know, there's a little overlap. And I think look at stationary and topics like that, right, with LFP, which make a lot of sense. And then recycling, I mean, the one caveat just there, right, is to recycle LFP to make it cost effective. I mean, you don't really get materials back or, you know, like nickel and cobalt. So, yeah, so you have to actually probably want to go to lithium recycling if you want to get value out of it again. So, yeah, so the financial is a bit much quicker than LFP recycling. But, yeah, I agree with you. I mean, there's quite a few players out there working on these topics. Yep. Just more for us to keep an eye on. Well, with that, we will wrap it up this time.

11:17We hope you'll join us next time for our 67th session. Is that right, Simon? I'm pretty sure that's right. I mean, there's a few more we didn't even record at the time, but yeah. Oh, wow. So, okay, unofficially, officially. But we will see you on our next episode. And in the meantime, if you get any ideas and want to hear from somebody specific on this platform, please feel free to reach out. We are always looking for ideas, and we'd love to hear from you. That's good. Thanks, Fabian. Awesome. See you later. Thanks, Simon. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.