Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - The Future of Battery-Powered Aviation: From Drones to Passenger Planes

0:00Transcript

0:00So before we go to you Katie as our wonderful speaker today, just a quick welcome to everyone. Thanks so much for listening in for the Battery Insiders podcast now and here today we're hosting a Battery Evolution Clubhouse session. And yeah, we have been running this now for about three years or so. I've really covered a range of different topics. So if you're curious, you're also welcome to go on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Look around on some of the previous topics we had. And really covering everything from technology and business cases, different careers in the space. So really providing a range of insights there. And we really love to feature wonderful people in the battery space. And I've covered a range of different people from different geographies and backgrounds. And yeah, I'm not here only by myself. I've also got my arm with us, the co-host. And I will pass over to her in a moment as well to introduce herself.

0:50My name is Dr. Samma Engelke, founder and chair of Battery Associates. I'm really excited to be one of the co-hosts for today. So Mariam, would you like to go next? And then we can pass over to our speaker. Thank you so much, Simon. And I want to say this is always my favorite part of any week when we do the Battery Insiders podcast together. So I'm very excited to be here. I'm Mariam. I'm co-founder at Pulsenix. We develop in-line performance assurance for batteries. And one of my favorite topics, as always, is just trying to understand what the different use cases and perspectives are from battery professionals. So I'm so excited to learn from Katie today about decarbonizing aviation and using batteries for aviation and so on. And what the unique perspective that she brings with her work at Amprius. So Simon, I'll bring it back to you to introduce Katie. But Katie, welcome. We're so excited to have you on our podcast. Thank you, Mariam.

1:56I won't say too much because I also want to introduce herself. But yeah, as you just mentioned, today we have this exciting topic of the future of battery-powered aviation from drones to passenger planes. And hopefully that's intriguing. And I see people here and listening and there's more people listening on this later on. And yeah, as you just mentioned also Katie Mays is with Amprius. I think she introduced the company as well, but of course quite known for the silicon anodes. And yeah, I would love to pass it over as Katie is the director of strategic accounts at Amprius and to take it away for today's topic. Thanks, Katie. Thank you very much. I'm really excited to be here. Just to introduce myself, as you shared, my name is Katie Mays. My position at Amprius is director of strategic accounts. So I'm in business development. A little bit of personal background. My background is in mechanical engineering, but I've really stayed in the sales and marketing space for the better part of a decade.

2:58The last few years have been primarily in the advanced battery space. To go into a little bit of background on Amprius itself, even though some of you may already be familiar with Amprius, we are an American advanced lithium-ion battery manufacturer based in Fremont, California. We were founded in 2008. We spun out of Stanford where the concept for our technology was developed. We spent about 10 years in stealth mode and didn't start shipping commercially until 2018. What we are known for in industry and what our innovation really is, is our silicon anode technology. So why would you go with silicon over a conventional graphite anode? You know, on paper, it's 10 times greater specific capacity than graphite. So you're going to be getting a lot more energy. It can store much more lithium than graphite in the conventional approach. Amprius has been able to harness this specific capacity with two different approaches. First being our flagship product, which is 100% silicon anode nanowire technology. And the second is through silicon oxide technology.

4:18Today, I'll really be focusing more on our silicon nanowire technology. Also because this makes this a unique differentiator between us and other silicon nanotechnology battery companies. We are the only battery manufacturer that actually provides 100% silicon anode technology. So that means there's no additives, no binders. It is truly 100% silicon. So why has Amprius succeeded when others, you know, tried to commercialize 100% silicon anode technology and it hasn't really been successful. So if you were to just coat a current collector with silicon particles, typically it swells to a huge size and it just swells and cracks. And it only goes for, you know, a few cycles. It really is not a feasible product. So what is unique about our product is that the silicon nanowires have kind of a unique structure. It almost look like upside down teardrops, I would describe them as. And have, you know, under SEM imagery, it is spacing between the nanowires. And this really allows for the swelling of silicon that we typically would see to happen intrastructurally.

5:39So within, you know, the confines of the existing anode structure, which really unlocks the pure silicon nanotechnology. And makes the swelling, you know, the same conventional graphite or lithium polymer cell swelling that you see with just a conventional technology. So the silicon nanowires are grown directly onto the current collectors. So there's, again, as I mentioned, no binders or structure adding agents are used in this. And so that means that there's just less material used. And so you get a very high energy density cell. Another unique characteristic that really comes from this is the connection of the silicon nanowires directly onto the current collector is extremely conductive. It creates a very direct path for the electrons to travel. So meaning that you would get a very high power performance with discharging and charging. And these really unique characteristics of our cells are able to really address the needs of air mobility in general. Of course, anything in the air is going to be concerned about the weight that they are using with their battery system.

7:03But they also don't want to compromise on their thrust or, you know, the payload capability. So they need power. And the differences in requirements are slightly, you know, they're not the same from manned and unmanned flight. But there are some definite similarities between the two on their requirements. So Ampryos has been able to truly succeed with a lot of the industry leaders in aviation. Some we can say publicly, some we cannot. One of, you know, significant public leader that we can talk about that we have a strategic partnership with is BA Systems. You know, we're in a commercial agreement with them to support their electric aviation projects. Teledyne FLIR is another strategic partner of ours. And so we've actually been able to support them with many of their programs, Black Hornet being one of them, and actually have been able to double their flight time comparative to the battery system that they used previously. Alto Airbus, again, is another huge supporter of our technology with their Zephyr HAPS.

8:27So their high altitude pseudo satellite application. And they were actually able to set a record breaking flight of 64 days in 2022. So there's going to be more flights in the future with even higher energy density batteries. So we're going to continue to break records in the HAPS space where although HAPS is still electric aviation, it's going to be a little bit different of requirements than, say, a UAV that is a for aerial photography or, you know, surveillance. And there's not going to be because of the takeoff of a HAPS aircraft. There's not going to be a very high power requirement. It slowly discharges. So you're really trying to maximize energy as much as you can over, you know, still having the power performance like a lot of our customers really need. Another big accomplishment for Ampryous is that we recently released a semi-standard battery pack line with with Tennergy. So we partnered with them. And this is specifically to address the UAV market and really kind of be able to have more of, I would say, smaller drone companies be able to address their needs through Tennergy.

9:56We have a lot of unnamed partners that we can't publicly share, but, you know, we're definitely focusing more in on the manned flight now. The UAV applications and unmanned flights would describe as something that's in the present. You know, it will, of course, grow even more over the years as, you know, delivery drones are starting to take off and have approval to be flying in certain areas. But, you know, the eBTOL sector for passenger flight really has not been able to have taken into effect yet. You know, no one has passed the final certification stage. So that is something that we want to address and are addressing right now with a few different partners and hope to really be a part of the growing need for this. I can go into more detail on maybe some of our technologies. But, you know, you guys have any questions, Simon? Great. Thanks so much for kicking this off, Katie. And, yeah, I think it's interesting, right? Maybe also from the perspective, right?

11:08To kind of put people, because, of course, a lot of people maybe joined here also with the idea. Great electric airplanes, right? I mean, this is one of these big issues right now, right? You can decarbonize your road transport and trains and everything, but flying is still something which is, you know, challenging to do because you maybe can get scientific fuels. But, yeah, there's the challenges. And maybe to kind of if you can put a bit in perspective how you see it, right, and how you believe in it from, again, you spoke about drones. It seems like, you know, you already figured some things out. You mentioned Sapphire and, you know, there's some applications. But now you mentioned EVTOLs. Do you think it can also go beyond that? Can it go to smaller airplanes, right, like more regional flights? Yes. Where do you see this dimension to go? Yeah. You know, regional air mobility is kind of the last frontier of electric aviation that really would require an extremely high energy density battery, more so than anyone has been able to address yet.

12:09And I think Ampryus is, again, uniquely positioned to be able to address that. We are the only company that's been able to reach 500 watt hours per kilogram and have that be third party verified. I know there's been other claims of that and maybe not third party verified, but we have been able to, you know, release the data with our announcement. And so something, you know, even greater in energy density would be needed to make the business case for a regional air mobility application. So that is definitely something that I think is in the future. It's maybe not in the near term, but it definitely is in, let's say, midterm and is definitely being discussed now. But for the present, drone applications are amongst us every day and is rapidly growing industry. And so most drone providers don't want to be able to have to compromise between their power requirements and the weight that their battery system makes or generates for their drone because that takes away from the available payload for the drone as well.

13:24So I think that Ampryus technology really has been able to address both of that as, you know, the industry is growing, we're growing with it. And that's really our area of current focus for the present term. Right. And we're still, you know, working with EVTOL OEMs for their needs when they go into production. Right. And in the development with demonstrators right now. But from a certification standpoint on the UAS market, there really isn't a huge challenge. You know, we have battery cells that are in flight with UAV applications right now. If cells are required to have IEC 62133 certification, you know, depending on the drone usage, we've been able to achieve that with our partners. So it's been no issue. It's a similar certification requirement for mobile electronics. So like a UL 1642, if you're in the U.S. or the international standard is the IEC 62133. So we have many of ourselves that have that certification for our drone customers that require it. But many don't require it.

14:44It is a different landscape depending on the usage of the drone. In EVTOL, for manned flight, the certification is something that is much different and obviously poses a challenge to the drone. The battery integrators and the aircraft companies in general. So that's something that's being worked on right now. You know, I'm sure everyone's tracking the large EVTOL OEMs right now and on their journey for certification for flight. But definitely there's heavy focus on that. And we believe our cells will and we know our cells will be able to get into a certified system. Thanks for that. Maybe just a quick follow-up question. Also an invitation for anybody listening. Welcome to all the questions in the chat. You know, we'd love to have your questions. So again, please bring them up. Maybe just a quick follow-up question. I mean, one, because you mentioned a certification topic. And we've been talking about those EVTOLs in the past and some of the challenges for that, right? And maybe beyond that, I mean, what are some of the other kind of challenges right now?

15:56Because, of course, one, you're talking now about the anode, right? Important point. We know financial density. Other people maybe try lithium metal and there's different approaches, right? But, of course, also the cathode and we're looking at the separators and, like, all of these different electrolyte types. And then integration, you know, just kind of if there's any thoughts on that. What else is kind of crucial to kind of enable the path, let's say, more from, you know, drones to kind of more passenger planes? And then the second question would be more about you're thinking about this trade-off between lifetime and performance, right? Because I think that's the big topic always with silicon, right? And I think you do some smart engineering to probably push the boundaries there, et cetera. But overall, silicon tends to be, as far as I'm aware, at least the really high ones, doesn't have as many cycles, right? But then you get maybe different greater performance, which enables different use cases. So maybe how do you see the trade-off there and some of the approaches you see being taken?

16:56Yes, definitely. Those are two very in-depth questions. I'll start with the first one on how maybe the other components are optimized for eVTOL applications. So, you know, the cell design definitely is impactful of the performance, you know, that would be required of an eVTOL application. You know, for the business case to make sense, you have to have enough runtime and minimize the charging time as well. You know, if your eVTOL craft is being slowly charged for long periods of time, you know, that's time that your craft cannot be in air and you're losing money on a business level. So it really requires the battery to have, A, high energy, and B, be able to, of course, have that quick charging time and also be able to withstand the takeoff and landing with reserve capacity, of course, for any, you know, issues, God forbid, any safety concerns or just, yeah, most eVTOL customers or all eVTOL customers are required to have, you know, 20 to 30% reserve capacity at landing.

18:09So for something like that, you would have to really, the cathode design is able to really dictate some of the energy or power performance, you know, having a thick cathode would increase power performance on the cell design. You know, having a smaller cathode, of course, there's less material and the energy is really more center stage on those cells. So we recently, you know, released a, we would call it our ultra high power, high energy cell, and it's targeting eVTOL space. It's really, it's been able to have extreme fast charge capabilities. So it's able to go from zero to 80%, you know, with an unoptimized charging protocol. So just a constant current. And it's able to reach 80% in less than six minutes, which is hugely significant for the eVTOL use case. It has 350 watts per kilogram power density and standard discharge conditions and, and even 400, excuse me, 4,400 watts per kilogram at lower depths of discharge. So it really what that gives the user is that it's able to reduce the weight, the volume and give extended range and reducing the charging frequency.

19:34And also, of course, lowering operational costs for the users. But to address, you know, your point about cycle life and the tradeoff between cycle life and performance, you know, I think it's something that's plagued all advanced battery companies. You know, no matter the chemistry, there's kind of hitting that sweet spot where you're still getting, you know, a usable cycle life while still maximizing performance. And that's something that's been our focus for quite some time to optimize that, you know, we have some cell designs that reach up to 1400 cycles at a 1C1C, you know, charge discharge protocol at 100% depth of discharge. But that being said, a lot of the aviation applications are never using it at 100% depth of discharge. You know, they're typically at like a 60% depth of discharge. And something that's really unique about our chemistry is it's hugely impacts the cycle life, you know, a cell will go from, you know, 300 cycles at 100% depth of discharge. And if you just reduce it back to 80% DoD, you're looking at, you know, almost 1000 cycles.

20:53So I think the use case of cycle life really starts to make sense. Um, when you're actually looking at flight profiles. I hope that answered your question, Simone. That's great. Thanks. Thank you so much, Katie. Um, so Katie, for, for anyone, including myself, who's not so familiar with the benchmarks out there, when it comes to the performance, uh, for batteries, energy density, cycle time, fast charging, when it comes to aviation. Mm-hmm . Could you provide us with, uh, a bit, a bit of a, uh, an understanding or a bit of context into what currently is the benchmark out there? And, and what's the delta between the benchmark and what you can offer? And how is that going to unlock, uh, you know, the ability for us to, uh, be able to have aviation that's reliable, but that's also decarbonized? Yeah, definitely. So, uh, what I guess would be a conventional graphite battery cell, you know, benchmark of what's out there right now is something that probably sits below 300 watt hours per kilogram.

22:04It would be a typical graphite, uh, energy density, which is commercially available. Um, you know, and comparing to Ampryus cells, Ampryus cells, excuse me, um, we are up to 500 watt hours per kilogram, which is really significant. Um, so that of course will extend flight time, um, into actual usable territory, right? So it, it really, I think if you're able to have a, a better system that has the, you know, enables a drone or an EVTEL craft to take flight, but your runtime is 20 minutes. Is that really even, um, useful, right? I mean, in some applications, I think it will be okay, but in majority, I think it really unlocks new usages. Um, you know, say for surveillance, I think having increased flight time is, is hugely useful. And that application, um, uh, typically, you know, you really can't get a, for a graphite, if you're trying to maximize energy, you definitely cannot get high power capabilities in those cells. So if you're looking at a graphite cell that has been optimized for energy, again, it would be less than 300, maybe about 300 watt hours per kilogram.

23:27And you're not getting, um, a 10 C, uh, continuous discharge profile out of that. Um, the ultra high power, high energy cell that I mentioned earlier is actually 400 watt hours per kilogram. And is 10 C continuous capable, um, without reaching the cell skin temperature of, of 60 degrees, which is really very significant. And, you know, you need less, um, thermal, uh, thermal hardware, I guess on a pack level. So it's even saving you more weight by that because the cell doesn't reach that high of temperatures as maybe some of the graphite cells would. And typically with graphite, uh, fast charging degrades the cell completely. And so even if it is fast charge capable, um, it, the cycle life just becomes very, very small at that point. And silicon is unique in the way that, um, it, high, high discharge and charge doesn't really have as much of an impact on cell degradation as, say, graphite, for instance. Um, it's able to withstand a lot of those really high power needs, um, and still have, uh, uh, maintain its stated cycle life.

24:47Thanks for sharing. Maybe a quick follow up on that one. Cause you mentioned it, right? Like, cause I think, you know, I noticed very often very much, you know, as you said, thought about from a charging perspective, right? Like, you know, to recharge your battery and I heard you about, you know, you want to maybe fear from a vehicle, right? You want to have a high uptime, high utilization, but I guess you could also do battery swapping or something. Mm-hmm. You just kind of have it out, um, for, for, you know, to charge it outside the vehicle. I also have heard that drones or EV tolls can, you know, can really burn through cells rather quickly, right? Like, and through packs. Um, so I've heard like maybe let's say half a year, so they would last because you have so many, you know, cycles and like really demanding, um, C rates, et cetera. So you just mentioned some really impressive C rates, like 10 C, et cetera.

25:34Um, and also on the, on the power output, right? Because of course you need to lift off, et cetera. Mm-hmm. And maybe if you could share a bit more of these properties, like requirements, or those for other people in the audience, you know, maybe tinker on the batteries in the lab or, you know, like some cool, cold innovation they're working on, like from a requirement, like what are the things you really have to push for to make a battery attractive beyond the energy density you mentioned? Yeah. Yeah. The, I think to make a battery cell attractive to that industry, you need to have power capabilities as well as energy density. Um, having just a high energy density without power capabilities, of course, you know, is only useful for some, um, you know, sections of the market and not the wider market. Um, of course, having, um, safety in the way that you can meet certification standards is another big thing. That's super important, especially with man flight.

26:37Uh, you know, whenever people are involved, it's a different, it's a different level. And there's a level of safety that's required on a battery system level. Um, but even on, say for delivery drones, those again, are going to be flying around people. So there needs to be a level of safety where you can ensure that it passes certifications like IEC 62133 or UL 1642, you know, depending on where you are regionally, we all have, each country has their specific certification on that. Um, typically. But that is a huge consideration that needs to really be addressed. If you are developing cells for that industry. And having a usable cycle life is of course, another big thing that you have to achieve. So it actually makes sense on, on a use case level for the customer or for the drone builder or EVTOL builder, um, to use your product. If you could only run, you know, a hundred cycles, it's for some applications, it's not that useful for others.

27:46You know, it is incredibly useful. So it really depends on which type of electric aviation craft that you're going for with your battery cells. Uh, three years of COVID and I still can't find the unmute button. So thank you so much, Katie. So we actually have our first question from, um, Naresh. Naresh, do you want to ask the question directly? Do you want us to bring you up on stage or, um, we can also ask you on your behalf. So I could invite to speak. See a few seconds. And also in the meantime, just invitation for everyone to come on. Oh yeah, you cannot speak right now. Perfect. No problem. Okay. But also invitation for anybody else to, to share your questions. Again, we want to make sure that we have enough time for that. So please feel free to add your questions to the chat. And you're also welcome to come up on stage as well. Yeah. So I'll ask Naresh's question. Uh, so Katie Naresh is asking, does, uh, do regenerative techniques help degradation on small periods?

28:52Or does that have some effect with longer drive cycles? I think it would be good for me to understand, um, the regenerative techniques that, you know, you're trying to see if that would impact degradation, right? Uh, I think there's a few different ways to do, to do that. Um, is it something that Ampry is is, you know, has explored and knows definitively? No, but, um, I can answer in my own opinion on, um, what is the process? Okay. What I know from the battery technology and how I think that would impact it, but I'm not sure which technique you're specifically referring to. Naresh, are you able to provide more clarity in the chat maybe about specific regenerative techniques that you have questions on? And otherwise, maybe in the meantime, we can open it up a bit, right, Katie? Because I think it's interesting thought, right? Like, from techniques around it, right? And again, like, how important is it to have maybe advanced kind of, you know, charging, just charging profiles for these kind of silicon anodes or like any other, you know, kind of tools which is, you know, you can share publicly.

29:56Can you repeat that question? I'm not sure if I totally caught that on what you're asking. Sorry, it's more about like, I know, for example, for, for lithium metal, right? Like, you know, pulsing can be quite important to kind of trying to avoid certain denvale formation. So you can also through like, the way you charge or discharge your cells, you can actually influence, you know, the, like the surface, etc. you get. So I was just curious if you know of anything like this, is this a big topic in silicon? Do you have like certain discharge or charging profiles? Just something I'm curious about just came across based on this question. So essentially, like an optimized charging protocol to be able to prevent cell degradation, or mitigate some of the cell degradation effects that you would typically see. I know, you know, dendrite formation is such a huge focus in lithium metal. You know, it's not necessarily the same as, you know, lithium metal. And we do, we try and do use cases of how our customer would actually use the cells.

31:02So if we're doing this optimized protocol for discharging and charge, is that really how a user would actually use the cell? So, you know, that's what we try and focus on and show data in the way that's actually useful to the customers, right? But I'm not familiar if there is, certainly I don't think we are doing something like that, no. Great, thanks for sharing. Kashif, do you have a question? You can feel free to ask directly. I can see Naresh actually added more insight to his questions. So an aviation equivalent to breaking cars like cruise. Oh, Kashif, I'm sorry, are you asking a question? I think we lost them for now. But yeah, maybe, as you said, Naresh had an additional, right? Like this kind of cruise breaking for cars like cruise. All I can say is that cruise really doesn't require a lot of power. And so you can actually is very easy on the battery. So maybe are you referring to something like a cruise control?

32:01That would be more on the system level, you know, design specification. But yes, similar to cars, cruising is not very power intensive. So that's really where the energy comes into effect of the battery cell and the battery system. I hope that answered your question. And I think maybe one thing to add, right? Because I think you mentioned this really fascinating work, you know, with Airbus, you know, these Sapphire drones. And if anybody's curious, you're welcome to look it up on Google or something online. It's quite fascinating to see them. And I think one thing I found fascinating about them, right, because they're flying up and down to be closer to the sun, right? And then they kind of, so there is some certain flight protocols they have to maximize the flight time, right? You mentioned the six days. Yes, definitely. And they are using their own protocol to be able to optimize that. And so that's going to really be very specific to the technology utilized.

33:00And so, but yes, and it's a haps high altitude pseudo satellites, you know, that what Zephyr is, is really a unique use case in electric aviation. And, but yes, they have, it's incredible that we were able to achieve the record breaking flight with, with also Airbus. And they essentially are charging up during the day and slowly discharging at night, right? So that the solar cells on, on, um, the haps aircraft, and it really has been able to, uh, unlock that industry that really has not been previously made feasible before because the flights were never able to be long enough to, to make business sense, which has really been incredible, incredible to be a part of. Um, and it's a growing industry to really offer, um, connectivity to areas that previously, you know, we're not able to receive it or, you know, in instances where connectivity or, you know, 4G, 5G latency is lost. Um, uh, haps application is really there to address that need. Great.

34:24Maybe like a followup question to that would be right. Right. Because I think a lot of discussion we had in these kind of sessions is about customization versus standardization, right? And there's some, some advantages, right? And I mean, and you are now in some very specialty applications, right? And this, this application and like, how much do you think so from, from a battery maker, right? Like how much customization do you have to do or is required, right? To kind of for these use cases, because as I just said, they are maybe getting super high up and then they have these temperature differences. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And at least certain profiles. So how involved is that or is the dream at some point you just make a sell and then, you know, people use it and you don't have to adapt it too much for them. I think it would be adaptive to each subsection of the market, right? Right. So there's a standard. That's what we're, you know, moving towards, right?

35:17Is we have a standard sell for, you know, HAPS industry or we have a standard sell for small, small drones. But the sizing, you know, of the cell, we'll have it like a base chemistry that's standard to those different use cases. And the cell design is, is optimized for that performance needs. But of course, you know, as people are designing products, they have the available space and that's the space they can use. So sometimes the footprint would have to be changed, but the chemistry, we really are trying to move towards a standard approach to each of those market segments. I think now there's a question on chat, ma'am. Do you want to ask that? Yeah. So I did invite Kashif back to, as a speaker, Kashif, are you able to speak? Yes. Can you guys hear me? Perfect. We can hear you. Okay. Cool. Cool. Katie, quick question, two parts. First one is how, how does your roadmap look and how, how robust is your R&D process?

36:26To, to fulfill all of these aspirations you have into penetrating into the, the, you know, short distance flight market or the EV market altogether. Do you see any, any major challenges at all? I mean, that could be really interesting to, to know. Yeah. I mean, I think our R&D team, you know, is incredible to be honest. They've really been able to push boundaries with the technology that we've released and continue to do so. Our roadmap of course is to continue to push innovation and really we want to be able to release our, our 500 watt hour per kilogram battery cell to mass production. And the 500 watt hour per, watt hour per kilogram cell, excuse me, is really a cell that's been optimized for the HAPS industry. And also really releasing our, our 400 watt hour per kilogram power cell, power cell, excuse me, our ultra high power, high energy cell is again, a cell that's been optimized for the EV tall industry. And so that we really, as a company don't like to talk about what we're going to do in 10 years.

37:49I know that's a departure from other advanced battery companies. We talk in our roadmap in the sense of short and midterm roadmap and really deliver against that. It's a, for EVs, you know, we're working with, we're definitely developing an EV centered cell. Through a partnership that we have, we're working to, to release that. And that's of course what every battery company is going for. As the industry continues to electrify and transition away from gas combustion engines, internal gas combustion engines, you know, battery needs are growing tremendously. So that of course is always going to be something that we are working towards and still there's some, some work to be done. But definitely that is on our roadmap. Great. Thank you for the insight Katie. Just to follow up question. Like since you work in the Silicon anode segment, I see that Porsche is very much interested in this technology. And when you talk about EV, the, the luxury EV segment is pretty much focused on the Silicon anode technology.

39:15Yes. Because of the fast charging and all of that. Does that make that tech more expensive? Or do you think on a long run, you can, you know, you can be more accessible? I definitely think. It can be more accessible. Yeah, no, I really appreciate that question Kashif. In the short term. Yeah, there is going to be a premium associated with Silicon technology in general, right? It's not a incredibly mature technology that has been around for, you know, many decades in mass production as say, you know, the graphite technology that's used in EV markets today. But as we reach that level, yes, of course, I think it'll be accessible to, you know, the wider usage of EVs and not just a luxury EV product or those high performance EVs. We actually are on a, we have an agreement with USABC, which is a consortium formed by Ford, Stellantis and GM. And it's a development program for low cost EV batteries. And so we're working towards that.

40:29We're on our, I think our second year, maybe this is our third year now of this program that we're working towards and delivering samples to for evaluation and getting towards that, that low cost EV cell that really meets all of those needs in the wider EV audience. Thank you. That's, that's pretty much it from my side. Thank you for the opportunity though. Thanks. Thank you Kashif. Katie, one question that just popped in my head, which is, I know that each of the different chemistries for, for batteries, of course, each of them will have considerations, things that need to be de-risked for aviation. But say, what would you say is the pro or con about using a silicon versus something like a lithium metal or, yeah, actually lithium metal is one of the, the other contenders for, for aviation. What would you say are the ways in which silicon wins versus lithium metal would win? Yeah. Lithium metals, I would say a highly reactive substance. And so I think from the, the thermal runaway perspective, even though both cells are energetic and when thermal, a thermal event does occur.

41:50And, you know, as all batteries can get to that point, I think both will be energetic, right? If you pack so much energy into a small area, it just will be an energetic event. But I do think lithium metal is more reactive than say, silicon, you know, technology and more volatile. So from a safety perspective and being able to address that need. Yeah. I definitely think there is some challenges ahead on getting a PAC certified with lithium metal as it is with silicon and our technology. But I think it'll be less of a challenge. We also developed a, a gel polymer electrolyte for our, our silicon nanotechnology for customers that requirement, particularly the U S army. This is for a wearable technology, their conformable wearable battery program. So it's for, you know, strapped to soldiers' chests for their communication devices. So ultimately, you know, if a, a bullet does hit their vest, it has to not have any thermal event and not go into thermal runaway and have that internal, internal short circuit.

43:10So we can really hit that on, on a safety perspective as well, if need be. And, and Katie, you had also mentioned the thermal management. So, you know, quite impressive that the cell doesn't actually heat up beyond a certain degree Celsius. Can you tell us a little bit more about how the ability to do thermal management without all the extra equipment and so on would allow you to do fast charging? Yes. So because it doesn't heat up, you know, past 60 degrees, a, that prevents cell degradation. I know a lot of cells, you know, that when they're doing very high discharge rates, like a 10 C continuous, if they are able to do that, you know, a lower GED cell, it gets extremely hot. So, and your energy density on a cell level is only as important as your, your pack energy density, right? And so your, your packing factor becomes a lot less comparatively if you don't have to put in, you know, heat sinks constantly, consistently everywhere or active cooling.

44:23Um, because your cell just doesn't reach the temperatures, uh, that would require something like that. Yeah. I know that that is such a huge problem, uh, in general in the industry. So that's really interesting to hear. Um, and Arish has another question, which is, are you looking at the circular economy, uh, for cost savings? Yeah. So, you know, I guess second life usage is that what his question is, is, is there, um, after essentially the battery is at 80% state of health or whatever the state of health is for the applications being used. Is there another life for it? Is that what you're asking? Nourish is, is, are you asking about recycling or reuse? Yes. So it would be second life batteries. Okay. Um, definitely. It's something that's in discussion and, and looking at other applications, but that really is something that our, our, our customers would use. Right. Um, once our cells get put into a battery system, it becomes, you know, the customer's usage and property.

45:37Right. And, but it is something that we're trying to enable our customers, um, to be able to do. So it's something that we're looking at on, on what would be a secondary usage after say, you know, a battery system is, is completed or end of life for an EV tall craft. Um, what is secondary usage after that? Definitely. I think a lot of the industry is, is looking to find something, um, that could be suitable, maybe more on the industrial battery side. All right. That's perfect. Thank you so much. Uh, Katie, I was actually just in Germany last week, visiting a lab and, um, and, uh, the lab was working on second life applications. And one of the biggest challenges they had was just being able to take apart the cells from within a pack because there was so much glue and adhesive and, um, you know, heat sinks and all of these different components. So I know that it's a relationship between the OEM and the, the end user that would be an interesting, um, process I would imagine.

46:50Yeah. And to your point about a challenge with removing all of, you know, the, whether that be passive cooling or active cooling, if you don't need as much of that or any of that, then it's going to be a, a, a, a easier path forward. To get the cells, you know, out of the pack. Right. So I do think on a cell level, we've been able to address some of that. And Katie, what about, you know, how did you, how did you become involved in the, in the battery industry? Can you tell us a bit more about your personal journey to, uh, to doing what you're doing today at Amprias? Yeah, definitely. Um, so as I shared my backgrounds in mechanical engineering and have, um, you know, been in the sales marketing for the better part of a decade and was more on the manufacturing side of things. And, um, always in, in tech and I had transitioned to my first advanced battery company. That was a lithium metal battery company.

47:52And it was there for a bit of time, you know, a couple of years and really was fascinated by this growing industry. It really was not something that I had seen as something that I needed to get into. But once I was into it, it was, um, something that was so, I think, just a really unique industry, um, and addressing such a growing need. Um, and about a year ago, I joined the Amprias team and I, I've really been so impressed with their, um, development in the technology and really, um, the openness of what they're providing. I, I know that seems silly because a lot of, you know, of course people should be open on and, and clear with data and providing exactly what you say you're providing. But that actually does differentiate them from a lot of the advanced battery companies, um, which has been a pleasure to work with. Thanks for sharing. And maybe, uh, also kind of looking at time, maybe getting close to the end, like for other people who might be curious about the battery field, but like, is there anything you would pass on to them?

49:07Just share a bit about your own journey. Like, you know, what are some things you would share with someone else who might be interested to listen to us and be like, okay, I'm interested in, you know, flying without, you know, flying without, you know, flying without, you know, flying without, you know, flying without, you know, flying without, you know, flying without, you know, flying. So you're part of actually a huge movement to. When people say electrify everything and the aim of the push towards that really the implications of that is huge for our environment. Um, gas is uses so much energy consumption. It's expensive and just terrible for the environment as well. The emissions that's generated. And so going to a zero emission approach, not only, you know, as cost effective, but it is actually amazing for the environment as I'm sure everyone knows. So you're a part of a mission that is not just a new technology development. It's a new technology that is potentially has huge, huge positive implications for, you know, the environment, which is something that is really fantastic to be a part of and, and grow in this industry.

50:15I will say the battery industry is actually pretty small once you get into it. It's big and small at the same time. You'll see many faces over again. So, um, it's a great industry to be a part of. There's a lot of collaborative thinking. And, um, again, it's so important to be a part of something that you believe in the mission and you believe in the purpose of the technology that you're creating. It's not just something that is a cool piece of technology. It has huge sustainability implications, which is really fantastic. So I, 10 out of 10, I would recommend joining the battery industry if you're considering. Katie, I want to extend a sincere answer. A sincere thank you so much for being on the podcast today and helping us understand. A some of the challenges that exist today when it comes to how can we actually electrify aviation. B also some of the exciting things that you guys are working on at Amprius, the performance data.

51:19That's really, um, cool to see. And I'm sure a lot of us are going to go in and read up on that a little bit more. Um, and, um, and so I really appreciate it and hope that you enjoyed your time with us as much as we did. Thank you, Maryam. I did. I really appreciate being invited to speak on this podcast and being a part of it. And, uh, thank you again. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak more about this subject and more about electrifying aviation, you know, in the broad umbrella underneath that, you know, from the many applications that are involved in electric aviation and also sharing some of our technology and what we're doing in Amprius. And how we're driving, um, those efforts to electrify aviation, uh, both in the present and the future. Thanks Katie. And yeah, for anybody interested, you can also go on batteryinsiders.com to be notified about future episodes as well as to listen to other episodes on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, where we listen to podcasts on the battery insiders.

52:21So thanks again, Katie. And thanks everyone for joining today and sharing your questions and your thoughts and we see you very soon. Bye bye. Thank you. And if you have, oh, sorry, if you have any more questions at all, please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or, or through our website. Um, we really are an open book and are happy to answer any questions. Even if you're just curious about the technology. That's wonderful. Um, I also want to say happy weekend everyone and thank you so much Katie. Thank you again. All right. Take care.