Battery Insiders Reflection - Battery 2nd Life

0:00Transcript

0:00Welcome to Battery Insiders, your podcast providing you insights in the fascinating world of batteries. Hosted by Bhavya Jha and Simon Engelke. And we're back. How's it going, Simon? Very well. How are you, Bhavya, today? Doing well. I think it's a great day to talk about second life batteries, another one of my favorite battery topics, and one that I spent a good time researching as well during my research year. So how did you like the conversation with Maggie and Charlie? Yeah, I think it's been great. It's definitely like one of these topics which brings, I think, a lot of different perspectives and also a lot of readiness to discuss with it. So I think we had a really engaged discussion, lots of people joining, people don't want to leave. It's always, I think, the good kind. And it was also quite nice to have two conversations started, like two speakers as well, who I think complemented themselves quite well, like Maggie and Charlie. I think they have done a great job to kind of summarizing the topic and providing also lots of answers for many questions. What about you, Bhavya?

1:19Yes, I think one of the, you know, people always talk about second life, and I think it's been like one of the great debates of battery world has been recycle or reuse. And, you know, what are the implications of doing either as far as like recycled material availability goes, as far as the circular economy questions go? You know, we have some countries, like particularly UK and many countries in the EU that are pushing for a circular economy. And I think that, you know, second life options for batteries, whether it is reuse or recycle, do have implications for the feasibility and the viability of that type of plan. And so I think that is, those were some of the things that I know that were coming up and things that I've been grappling with as well. So it was kind of nice to get different perspectives. And, you know, just really have it discussed in a forum rather than working in a silo, which is the whole point of what we do. And so I love seeing that really manifest itself on a topic that I also am most interested in.

2:27Definitely. And I think also it's quite interesting to get the different global, like, you know, the different perspectives from different countries and not just thinking, you know, from one like local place, because I think, which also came up quite often, right? I mean, as you said, there's this big debate between recycling and second life and all, you know, second life will have a role to play, et cetera. And I think it gets much more nuanced, right? Once you look at different, first one, different applications, you know, we spoke from everything from EVs to tool readers and everything between really. And then, you know, you also talk from like, you know, perspective from US, from Europe, but also in India and, you know, many other places where, you know, it's not always the same, you know, need what you like, you know, have at the same time. It's maybe not just, you know, if even if availability is a big concern, right, to even have cells, then suddenly second life becomes much more, you know, it becomes the only option at some points, right? If there's no firsthand batteries available, second life actually becomes the only option for some of these applications. So it was just really fascinating, I think, to see. And but also kind of here that there's still lots of limits, I think, you know, I mean, there were many examples mentioned by Maggie and Charlie, you know, like many pilots and things around the world. But, you know, thinking about scale, there's still, you know, a lot of, you know, early days, I think, you know, a lot of testing.

3:44And there was all the new kind of, you know, changes also, you know, from structural batteries and things like that. There's lots of things, you know, to see how much does it make sense to use EV batteries often for second life. But yeah, it's just things really fascinating topic. And we definitely had lots of different perspectives, which makes it really interesting. Absolutely. So I don't know, what do we think? Can you use an EV battery in, in, in, as energy storage during its second life? Or does it need to be refurbished and used for the same purpose, go into another car? Or, I mean, I guess maybe the same car, but, you know, another life in an EV? Or is there something else? I don't know. I think when I first entered this, it seemed really, it was like, aha, of course, EVs. And then second life, you are used as energy storage, and then you go to recycling. And then the whole nine yards like starts again. But is that too simplistic? And, you know, as we think about like different chemistries and fits and different, like the battery shapes and sizes, how realistic is second life?

4:55Totally. And I think, but I think it's, you know, yeah, I think, you know, I mean, one, as you just mentioned, right, it's a classic EV, and there's like a bunch of startups, right? I mean, do my work, right? Or like also with battery source sets, we talked to quite a few of them. And it's still one of my to-dos to actually do a bit of an overview of all the existing ones. Because, yeah, there's so many, and I keep talking to more and more, and I'm always surprised that they don't often know from each other. But so I think one is like all these startups, you know, looking at EV batteries and just want to use them for stationary applications. So I think that's the main, you know, one we can see at the moment. But I think then, I think it was really interesting in the conversation, you know, like the perspective also, I mean, from India, from like two wheelers, you know, where there's lots of movement right now to, you know, use batteries for small vehicles, like two wheelers, et cetera. And here through like, you know, the temperature, and also because of the smaller size, which, you know, allows you less kind of balancing because you have less cells.

5:53Actually, you know, the lifetime can be much shorter. So we're talking like two or three years lifetime to go, let's say 80% or so, right, of the original capacity. And I think it's quite, so there, it could be much quicker, you know, a lot of second life batteries available. On the other hand, there's a massive, you know, demand also for stationary batteries, right? Right now, there's a lot of lead acid, but there, there's a big move in India to lithium-ion batteries for stationary applications and home storage, et cetera. So I think there could also be, you know, these kinds of different applications rather than just the standard, let's take EV batteries, even though from a volume, of course, there's going to be quite massive. And it's a big question what to do with it. And yeah, as I hear you talk about it, I'm realizing, you know, that's just one scenario. We don't just have lithium-ion batteries in EVs. They also do have to do their first life in energy storage. And so, you know, it's a different kind of conversation, really, when you're talking about going energy storage to energy storage, maybe as a second life. And, and then, of course, we're talking about different, like, a variation of sizes in mobility types, two wheelers for, you know, four wheel cars. I mean, trucks have been also a part of the conversation and increasingly so in the past years, but yeah, I think it's going to be, it's not going to be so easy to just say, it's not going to be the simple, oh, here's, oh, went through first life in one, here you go into second life in another, because I do think the size and the chemistries will play a role.

7:27So, but it's a good thing we have people like Maggie and Charlie to keep thinking about these things and pushing industry to think harder and do better by it. Totally. And I think, yeah, I think it's just really fascinating also, right, to, as you just mentioned, chemistries as well. And, you know, I think that there's also the argument, right, like right now, maybe, you know, you create value, you get value out of recycling. And even though, you know, it's quite challenging, right, to make money out of recycling at times, and especially now when you move to different chemistries, for example, like LFP, right, we're removing cobalt or other chemistries, NMC's, et cetera, to really reduce cobalt as much as possible, which then on the other hand, you know, removes the valuable material from the battery. And then, I mean, one of the most valuable ones, right? And I think then the big question is, will, you know, will people be willing to even recycle if they get no money out of it?

8:22And then, of course, government has a role to play, right, to kind of dictate it. But then, of course, if a company kind of can get rid of the battery in a different way and actually getting some money for it, or almost, or don't have to pay for it. So I think there's also lots of interesting economics, right, just like from ownership perspective, who owns the battery, and these kind of things. But then also, I think a big discussion also came up, which was on data, right, and kind of understanding of how good is the battery you get, because that's still a big issue, right, if you can now get a second life battery, but you don't really understand, like, what's the exact status? And like, what's the, you know, how has it been used? Has it been supercharged a lot? Or what has been the temperature? And all these kind of things. And of course, that's a big role to play, right, before you want to use them, if you don't know what the properties are.

9:05 And of course, you can also listen to our podcast. And with that, we will see you all next time. And especially now, right, with Android, so everyone can listen. It's on Android and iPhone, Clubhouse as well. So you can join these sessions and live, if you wish so. And of course, on other end, you can also listen in to our podcast. And with that, we will see you all next time. See you. Bye-bye.