Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Battery 2nd Life

0:00Transcript

0:00I've been interested in for a really long time. Almost a decade ago, I was working for a battery manufacturer, and I had a specialty or specialized in warranty and modeling. And as I transitioned from normal components in an internal combustion engine to lithium-ion batteries, I noticed that there was obviously some stark differences based on the parts and pieces. But I also noticed that the format that we were using at the time, which was generally accepted across the industry, really wasn't good for any sort of recycling or reuse. The cells looked like beer cans, and they were super glued into packs. And I noticed as we went on, and these packs were in the field, if one cell went bad in that pack that might have contained 100 to 200 cells, these packs were just piling up at different dealerships across the globe. And it was too expensive to transport them anywhere. We didn't know what to do with them. Um, and it just was, uh, it was, it was hard to see because also coming from the ICE world, we, we pretty much recycle everything, especially lead acid batteries are the most, uh, at least in the U S the most recycled consumer product that we use today.

1:12Um, so I was happy to see a couple of years later, I was, um, selling the Monroe and Associates BMW I three report. That was when they went through and tore down the entire vehicle. A little sad to see when you see a, you know, a nice piece of engineering there and it's completely torn to shreds and measured and, and weighed and, and the costs, um, calculated. Um, but I was happy to see at that point that the designs had become different. Um, there was thought into the sustainability, the circular economy of these packs, um, putting them into modules that could be easily replaced versus super gluing them into a pack. Um, really kind of showed that there was starting to be thought around this, um, because as EV adoption increases and, um, becomes significant, a significant part of our car park, even more than like, let's say 5%. Um, we need to, to do things we need to design differently, um, or else these batteries are just going to pile up, um, in different spaces and, and with no, um, consideration for, for where they should go.

2:12Um, so just to, this is going to be a bit basic for anyone new in the room, but, um, electric vehicle lithium-ion batteries, they're typically replaced, um, after the residual capacity falls below a particular performance point. Um, this is for performance and also for safety and it's designed that way. Um, at that point, they're typically, um, only have lost about. Um, I don't know why, um, I don't know if she's going to join here. Um, but anyway, uh, that means that they were retained about 80% of their capacity, uh, when they're retired from their automotive service life. Um, this is going to become a, a, a major waste, uh, management challenge. Um, and there's varying reports, but one report I'll cite from, and I can't remember if this is actually McKinsey, but 300 and 340,000 metric tons by 2040. Um, so we really need to figure out what we're going to do with these, these spent packs. Um, when these EVs reach end of life, um, according again to the automotive standards, um, it doesn't mean that they just need to be thrown away and they typically have free routes that they're going to, um, go through.

3:21Disposal is one. Um, if the pack is damaged beyond repair, reuse, repurposing, um, it's going to go into a disposal. Of course, we don't really know what that is. Um, it's going to depend on territory. Um, it's going to depend on the chemistry, um, and, uh, the different characteristics of that pack. Um, recycling obviously has been a really big, um, um, topic lately. There's a lot of companies coming out with, um, recycling technology. Um, but there's still the economics of that isn't, um, first of all, the, the technology is, is, is still immature and still in a early phase and the economics aren't favorable in most cases. You know, you still have a procurement cost, you have a recycling cost, and then you have to be able to sell that, you know, at a profit at the very end of the supply chain. So unlike other, um, metal capture, um, recycling techniques and, and markets, uh, this one isn't necessarily economically favorable just yet, but it's going to take, it's still somewhat new and nascent and it's going to take, you know, um, experience in the field to, to bring this up and then a roadmap to profitability.

4:35Um, the third place is second life, which has become, um, more popular, um, in the past decade with the fact that, you know, 70 to 80% of the, the charging capacity is still retained in these batteries. We can use them in typically non, um, um, automotive or as I always say, if they're not transporting people, we can put them into stationary applications. Um, and they're, you know, the, the safety factor, the regulations and logistics, legal logistics becomes a lot easier. Um, second life has a couple of different ways we can repurpose them. Um, and each of these ways comes with challenges and benefits. Remember that every pack is the same. It's not the same in chemistry. Chemistry dictates the voltage, the energy density, and the compatibility with certain applications. Um, so a lot of times we can refer or repurpose these packs. Um, the packs are disassembled and then certain single cells or even modules can be reconditioned and repacked into new modules. And then based on the application and the specified, um, targets that that application needs, um, packs can be built, uh, custom for that application.

5:47Um, again, in the past due to design constraints, you know, gluing in cells, form factors, disposal, um, was made in the main options. Now there's, like I said earlier, there's better thought into the sustainability and recycling and reuse. Um, and a lot of the, I'm happy to say the OEMs are really kind of looking into that and taking more of an active role because they are a major player once they, um, do procure that pack, um, implement it into their vehicles and then take it back from a, in a warranty situation. Um, some of the better use cases for second life, um, you know, as I said before, it's really stationary, um, is the power grid is, is facing greater challenges, um, increasing energy demand. And, you know, as we're putting in more renewables that are intermittent sources of power, such as, uh, solar and wind, we can use, um, second life battery applications to, um, complement the grid, um, in different ways in different parts of the grid.

6:51Um, so with second life, there are, you know, off-grid applications and hold on one second. I just lost my train of thought, um, such as the microgrid, um, smart grid, you can use it for power quality and reliability, um, or even mobile EV charging. Um, there's some, some places where you're seeing a lot of second life and some that are pretty rare, but those applications are still being, um, looked at for second life. Um, you can look at, um, based on the cycling requirements, um, provide reserve energy capacity, um, that can help the grid's reliability and resilience. And then there's also cost avoidance. Um, if you look at different transmission and distribution investments, you can take advantage, um, of the power arbitrage opportunities and use, use second life for storing renewable power during those periods. So that's going to, you know, not only provide resiliency, but grid flexibility. And with that, I'm going to hand it over to Charlie to kind of talk about the market, um, as it is today.

7:57All right. All right. Thank you. Um, so yeah, this is actually, uh, the thing that's subject to debate, uh, in terms of, you know, what, what the market for second life will be and what's usable. Is it only the, the batteries coming out of, uh, pure battery electric vehicles or do hybrids and, and, and plug-in hybrids, uh, count as well. Um, I've done my own ground-up analyses and, and come up with totally different numbers, but I think for this, we can, we can rely on McKinsey. Um, McKinsey's produced multiple reports now in this area. And, uh, the one we use is from a 2019 or 2020 report. And, um, they put a high case scenario in 2025, but having 30 gigawatt hours of, uh, battery supply. And in 2030, um, their high case is 227 gigawatt hours of batteries available. And I guess just to put that into context, I think all EV, uh, production last year was a little over half that. So, um, there's going to be a significant amount of this stuff on the market and, um, hopefully it does get utilized.

9:02Um, what is going on right now is, which is kind of funny is that, um, you have hobbyists and, and folks who aren't necessarily producing products, uh, buying this stuff for, for home use and whatever else. And, um, it's kind of crowding the market out with available, uh, demand. So when I do speak with, with integrators who are creating second life products is that there's, there's competition for, um, I guess what is now has sort of limited supply, but, um, supply is opening up as, as one would imagine as the vintage 2011, 2012, um, EVs are now, um, their, their batteries are being replaced. So, um, so that's, yeah, that's the, the size of the market. Um, so putting a dollar amount to that, um, it's kind of all over the map, um, and mostly based on, uh, battery quality in terms of, does this, did this come out of a, uh, wrecked car and can be put back into a car or did this come, uh, end of first life?

10:03So, um, that does, uh, the remaining capacity is, is the biggest determinant in terms of what, what the battery is worth and then, um, extrapolating that out over the entire market as well. So, um, so do you want me to go into benefits and, and everything else, or do you want me to pick that at the market side? Yeah, go ahead. And then I'll, I'll talk about applications or, uh, specific ones. Yeah. Sure. Okay. So, um, so why are we doing this? What, what are the benefits? Um, well, as Maggie touched on earlier is that recycling these batteries is not necessarily, uh, profitable for the battery owner. And most recently when only pyrometallurgical recycling was available, this would actually cost people, uh, to properly dispose of a, of a lithium-ion battery. Um, there are, uh, the, the new, the new generation of lithium-ion recycling. Um, these, um, these companies are paying some, but there is usually a high cost associated with transport. So, um, it doesn't make sense in smaller volumes in that, um, the battery is almost always going to have more value, um, in, in a second life application.

11:14So, um, so, so there's that, so there's a benefit to the owner. Um, the benefit to the integrator or the person who's making a product out of this is of course a lower bill of materials. Um, and I think from, from speaking with folks is that there's definitely a green premium attached to this. Um, I would say as it relates for to a consumer facing product. So if you have a battery in your house and you can say it was second life is that, um, folks are willing to pay, uh, seemingly willing to pay a little bit more for that. So, um, and this is maybe a bit of a stretch in terms of a concept, but, um, for new battery buyers, um, if there's second life batteries on the market is that this may supply some sort of demand relief, um, in a sense that there's not as many new batteries being, um, uh, uh, demand for, uh, stationary applications. So, and this hopefully is, you know, uh, one of the mechanisms that, that keeps battery prices stable or declining and the ESG benefits.

12:16Um, you know, there's a much lower carbon footprint for keeping this, keeping a serviceful battery, uh, in service for another 10 years, as opposed to, uh, going and digging more lithium or, or anything else out of the ground. Um, but the recycling processes itself, um, as good as the new ones are, um, still have some carbon footprint to them. So, um, keeping the battery in, in service for another 10 years, um, it does tend to have these, uh, does have a carbon, uh, you know, ESG benefit attached to it. So, um, disadvantages, and this is something I've been focused on for three years now and realizing that, um, this is a great concept, but it's, it's hard to execute on. So, um, on the logistics side, uh, used batteries is, is hazardous material. Um, and this is in jurisdictions across the world, um, the United States and Europe are the two markets I've been focused on. Um, Europe is changing a little bit and that the, there is a portion of the battery directive, um, that would lift this designation for a graded battery.

13:24So if I use battery test test good, and it's going to be used in something else is that it will no longer have that hazmat designation. Why that matters is, um, shipping costs. Um, and it's, it's up to 50 times more expensive to, uh, ship hazardous material than it is just, uh, you know, any other good, I guess in this case it'd be considered a car part. So, um, braiding is difficult. So once these batteries come out of service in a car, we have to determine, uh, what's left on their, their state of health. And, um, just as you would the batteries coming off a production line, you have to group, uh, similar batteries together in order, um, to balance out the, the strain to make sure that, uh, the system is going to last, um, as long as it can. And in a lot of cases that, that bar is 10 years. So, um, lack of performance data, um, there's 50 or 60, uh, large scale projects out there.

14:20A lot of these are done by OEMs and, uh, the data is not been transparent. In fact, I've searched for three years and I haven't been able to find any performance data from a, from a large scale, um, uh, second life project. So, uh, hopefully this is something that does come out and that we will see these things as successful projects once they reach that, that 10 year mark. So, um, as I mentioned earlier to, uh, supply constraints, um, there's nothing in the way of a universal marketplace as of today. Um, so people are, folks have to go search on eBay, all junkyards. Um, this is a time consuming effort. So, um, but that is something I've been working on and something. I know other, other people have been working on as well. Um, and I would say one of the, one of the other big disadvantages here is, is, uh, the qualification process. Um, as Maggie mentioned earlier, there's any, there's tons of different chemistries, formats, uh, performance, uh, issues and everything else.

15:23And, um, it's a relatively long process to find what works and what works well. So, um, those are, uh, those are some of the hurdles and I'm sure there's many more, um, but those are the ones that, that I've, I've counted over the past three years. So, um, do you want me to go over the, some of the installations Maggie or? Yeah, go ahead. And then I'll, I'll do case studies. Sure. Yeah. All right. So, um, it's funny cause I just added, added one to my own list the other day. Um, and I think is a good proof of concept in that this works is, um, China telecom, uh, as a whole, uh, the 300, they have 300,000 towers being backed up by second life batteries. Um, uh, a report from IPI, which is a tech consultancy in Singapore estimates, uh, the, the size of this, if you add it all up at four gigawatt hours, and that would be an extremely significant project. Um, if, if you are taking these, this in the aggregate, so, um, but in terms of single standalone projects, um, there's multiple, as I mentioned earlier, multiple megawatt hour scale projects.

16:30So, uh, BMW has their plant in Leipzig, uh, that's, uh, over 15 megawatt hours in size. Um, uh, the Amsterdam arena, which I know Maggie's going to get into later is almost three megawatt hours in size. Um, Renault also has, um, uh, second life, uh, battery at one of their plants at almost five megawatt hours in size. And the list goes on and need to list every single one of these, but, um, OEMs have taken great effort into, uh, putting millions of dollars into these systems to get them up and running. Uh, it's, you know, it's a, it's an expensive proof of concept, if you will. So. And I think, you know, we keep mentioning both of us that there are so many different factors and inputs that go into just the technical feasibility of using second life batteries. And that's going to impact the cost. Um, so there's not a universal, um, this is what second life batteries cost for new batteries. Um, because it depends on so many different factors, um, the inputs and then obviously the output, which is the application.

17:35Um, there's a recent publication and applied energy by a group of MIT researchers. And they looked at a hypothetical 2.5 megawatt grid scale solar farm, um, out in California. Um, and what they did was theoretically calculate, okay, if we use new lithium-ion battery packs versus, um, repurposed ones, what's the cost difference? Um, and this assumed that the repurposed, uh, packs were 80% of the capacity, um, of the, the new ones. What they found with this analysis is that using a repurposed battery array or batteries in the array did, um, cost 60% of the original price. So you had basically a 40% reduction in price in this hypothetical situation, um, to use second life batteries. So I've seen anywhere from, you know, 40 to 50% of the cost of new batteries per application, but unfortunately, um, it's not standard given all of the different configurations, inputs, um, conditions, even of the battery, like Charlie mentioned. Um, you know, we don't know what the condition is.

18:41Um, there's also different driver profiles and driver care and maintenance of battery packs, whether they're charging them at all same time, or I mean, charging them, um, same time every night or at the same, uh, depth to discharge things like that, that are all going to play in. Um, like Charlie mentioned, um, you know, I'm a big fan of what was done out in, uh, the Netherlands at the IACS, uh, stadium. I wrote about this in Axios a couple of years ago, which coincided with the world cup. So it was a topical, um, article at that time, but they used, um, 250 use me Nissan leaf battery packs and 340 first life packs. Um, and coupled that with their solar panels to, you know, accumulate and store energy. This would allow them to, in the case of a blackout provide powers to the entire stadium for, um, I believe it was 60 minutes. Now this was a couple of years ago. Um, I'm not sure if they'd add it to that, but it was kind of a unique application, um, for second life, um, in a sports arena, which I, I do enjoy my sports.

19:42Um, just another one I want to touch on. There's an Island in Spain, um, and in collaboration with Nissan and L, um, who I work for also put together, um, 90 used electric car batteries connected them together for a four megawatt system, um, to help power, um, power the Island and provide, um, grid reliability. Um, so those are the two main cases. They're smaller cases, but the smaller cases really don't, the economics don't add up. I think, um, the economics in most cases for this is, is based on scale and becomes more, um, economically feasible with scale. But I, I've read some reports where I think it was Nissan was putting them into smaller robots. There's nano grids. There's, um, again, the more involvement the OEs have in the beginning of the design process and thinking about the end use, the better, um, and it can enable a lot more applications and hopefully at a better, better cost. Um, so with that, Charlie, do you have anything else to add, or I can just kind of conclude with our bullet points or with kind of the, the good and the bad, I guess, of second life.

20:51Yeah, no, keep, yeah, definitely. Definitely keep going. Then we'll, we'll get down to sort of the, the, the nitty gritty and the technical aspects of what these things are. So, yeah, just to kind of conclude what we were talking about, you know, we can using second life, not throwing these into garbage or having them wait for, uh, economically profitable recycling. We can use second life and a number of different applications. Um, and they fit in a number of different applications that might not involve transporting people, but in stationary applications. Um, but we need a lot to happen. We need the automakers to, to keep this in mind when they're designing upfront design for sustainability and recyclability, you know, really abiding by the circular economy, um, methods, practice, and, and notion. Um, there's also an economic, um, there needs to be a marketplace basically. Um, and the, the ICE world does this very well. Of course, they've been at it for over a hundred years, but you know, who are the players who are doing it, um, in conjunction, in a collaboration, um, from everywhere in the supply chain, from procurement of these batteries to processing, to selling them.

22:02Um, and, and with that standards are required, we need to have, um, you know, standard standards. That sounds funny, but you know, we need to have some sort of standards in the marketplace too, so that everybody's playing by the same roles. And that should, you know, make the technical and economic feasibility, uh, more of a reality and more of a profitable reality. Um, so with that, um, I don't know if you want to open it up or go more into the nitty gritty or depends on what folks want to hear. Thanks a lot, Maggie. No, I think it was a fantastic overview, um, providing some really interesting insights. And also, yeah, I agree. I think there's, there's many exciting things to dive into more deeply as well. Um, there are also some people in the audience I know who actually work in this space, you know, such as from a startup perspective, but also maybe from a research perspective. So it will be exciting also for you to join.

22:56I will also invite some of you, but, um, yeah, I mean, Catherine, if you have no other thoughts, you can also go to the people on stage. I know. Thank you so much, um, Maggie and Charlie. Uh, I think we also, we've also touched on the point about, um, lack of data for second life, um, lack of performance data, especially for second life batteries is something that's really interesting. And I do concur with that as well. I think NREL did publish a report. Um, uh, I can't remember when, when that was a few years ago about how the lack of data actually, um, did hinder the, uh, recyclability of batteries, especially with OEM. So that's interesting to dig into. Um, maybe I would like to kind of give other people, uh, you know, Milo's and Nimesh who have just joined us on stage. Maybe if we would like to share thoughts on this, that'd be great. Yes. The first, uh, one, a joke, Charlie, you said that, um, we can maybe rely on McKinsey on their, uh, prediction 2000 in the 1980s, uh, AT&T hire McKinsey.

24:00How many we will have in 2000, they predicted we will have 900,000 and we had, uh, 100 million. So they made this thing, like we had a hundred times more than what they predicted. So I don't think that you can rely on the, uh, on any, on any, uh, agency like that. But that's only joke. The question is, my question, my largest question is to the, uh, about the structural battery, what the Tesla is doing with their, with their cars now. So if the automakers will follow, which I think they need to follow because if they want to be competitive, they need to incorporate their battery to structural pegs, basically to go away from the skateboard, uh, uh, batteries, electrical vehicles. Um, in that case, I don't think that there could be, uh, uh, second use of the battery or what do you think? Yeah. And I, I think, uh, being a bit cynical here is that, you know, this first generation of EVs is that we really just need to get these things on the road.

25:15Um, these are, these are betas, um, maybe that's being too harsh, but, um, but the design for circularity just, um, wasn't there. Um, I think we, when we look at like leaf, um, and, and of course that's everyone's sort of go-to battery of choice. Um, there was just certain design elements that just happened to work. Um, I don't think that it necessarily had, had circularity in mind, but, um, that being said is that now we are, are ramping up the entire supply chain is, is ramping up and, um, these design considerations are being taken into account, uh, largely because of extended producer responsibility. Um, this is going to become law in Europe to some degree, and I would imagine the U S as well. So, um, automakers are, are going to make it easy on themselves to, um, to take these things out and, and reintegrate them. So, um, that's just mine. And back to the, the cell phone study, I believe that was a McKinsey study done for AT&T.

26:11Um, but yeah, they, they were, they, they vastly underestimated where, where the market was going to be. Yeah. I'm trying to say that, uh, the, those disruptions that are coming in S curve and those prediction agencies, they are predicting in linear predictions. So, uh, they're almost always wrong, but I'm, um, but back to this question, because you didn't answer my question or maybe you didn't understand the, I'm asking about the, uh, if you build, uh, incorporate cells to structural part of the battery of the car, you cannot take them out for the second use. And Tesla has largest market share right now, 25%. And, uh, uh, I believe other automakers will need to follow them because this, uh, this is a much less costly option. So, yeah, the, the, the, the, the cell, the cell to chassis design is, you know, it just, it really just depends on, on the OEM and what they're trying to do. Um, others are following it. Others are, are going against it as well.

27:15Um, Tesla, I don't think really had second life in mind, especially if you look at the model three packs where the modules are huge and not necessarily don't necessarily lend themselves to many second life applications. So, um, I get it. Tesla is the market leader and they're, they're, they're people are always going to look to them and what they're doing. Um, but not everyone is doing the, the cell to chassis in the same manner that they are. Okay. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Uh, may I also add one thing on this? Uh, maybe for a quick one, otherwise I will go to any mesh, but do you have a quick follow up question? Otherwise? Yes, it is a follow up question. Um, what I heard was that Tesla is actually, uh, working on the battery, uh, life that will be equal into the life of the car. So even if it is integrated with the car, uh, I think that won't be a problem. I'm not sure I read it somewhere.

28:13So it's just a follow up question that is it how Tesla is planning? I would think that there, you know, the, the pack would come out at the end of the car's life, but that pack should still have enough capacity in it to juice something else. Um, just based on the performance criteria and also the safety factor there's even if the pack is coming out of the car at the car's end of life, there's still going to be some juice in there that could be used, but I'm not familiar with how Tesla is working on their, their warranty and or life expectations. But just from a technical perspective, there should still be some, some life we could use out of those packs. If, if we can repurpose and repurpose them. No, no, you cannot use the pack because you cannot remove it because it's structural part of the car. Structural, but from a performance, there's still juice in there. Um, so yeah. How do you, so you need to bring the whole car to your garage and still use it even if the rest of the car doesn't work.

29:16It's a nice looking car. I don't mind like bringing it with me to a tailgate or something or. But basically you cannot remove the button. Yeah. I mean, when you look at peak scrap age for, for ICE vehicles at around 15 years and that, that stat may be a bit dated. Um, I mean, we're almost there. I think you're going to get a smaller portion of, of the EVs of the earlier vintages, uh, of 2011, 12 and 13, that if the, if they're used lightly and treated well, is that the batteries will last as long as the car does and the batteries will essentially calendar out. So, um, you will have that in a small portion of this population. And I think as the batteries, you know, get better and 10 years from now, we're looking at, at a different vintage and that you will, you will see, um, you know, that, that match between battery life and, and vehicle life. Perfect. Thanks so much.

30:18Also big thanks to all the people joining us on stage. We have to see there's lots of demand, which is great. Um, maybe just one quick thing. So, um, for my housekeeping, right. So I think we will now go by the order, essentially how people joined. So I need to be, I need to be next and talk time and then, et cetera. And then, yeah, if people want to raise their hand as well, you know, in between, um, for free to kind of use a microphone, something like, like slowly flick it. So we know you want to speak next as well. Thanks so much. I need to be next. Yep. Thanks. Thanks, Simon. Uh, Hey Maggie, good to speak with you again. Uh, Charlie, wonderful to have you over. Uh, and thanks to both of you. Uh, that was a very, very, uh, informationally rich introduction. Thanks a lot. So I have a couple of questions. Um, so it seems to me that fundamentally, like, you know, when you look at second life batteries, they are a good fit where, you know, they're a good fit wherever the requirements of volumetric energy density is a bit lower than electric vehicles.

31:16And the advantage is that the cost is lower. So, but when we look at grid applications, it's not just a comparison of, you know, second life batteries was existing lithium-ion batteries. Uh, it is also a contest between the other different forms of batteries that exist. Uh, in, in many, I would say like, you know, in grid storage, people typically, you know, uh, also use slow batteries. Uh, people also use, uh, uh, CATL announced, uh, the sodium-ion batteries, like, you know, a couple of weeks ago. Uh, people also use like molten, I think molten salt batteries. So again, all of these, many of our nascent technologies, but from your understanding, how do you think that, um, these second life batteries will compete in the grand scheme of the entire battery space, not just the lithium-ion battery space? Are there any, I would say technical, uh, advantages that like, for example, I see our second life batteries. Do you reckon are they better in load management or, you know, power quality or things like that, uh, such that the cost will matter less?

32:11So that's my first question. Uh, my second question is, so when you deal with second life batteries, you're basically sourcing batteries that are in use today, that are in production today. However, as Melo's hinted, uh, there are certain, I would say, I would say battery pack designs, which will introduce a variation in how these batteries can be extracted every year. Every car model uses a different kind of chemistry, how the batteries degrade over time varies from car to car, model to model. So there will be a lot of variation in the yield of batteries that we get from the vehicles that are in use today. How do you think that factors into, you know, you mentioned warranties when you were, when you were giving it the introduction, but how do you think that plays into how companies can, you know, give the warranties for these batteries that then reassemble into big, you know, energy storage units and shipped out? Uh, who do you think, like what business models do you think can emerge with regard to the sourcing and quality control of these batteries?

33:04Uh, so yeah, that's my two questions. Um, so let me, let me tackle the first one, you know, in, in working in the utilities, the, the type of energy storage we're going to put in is going to depend on a ton of different factors, right. And it's going to depend on regulation, um, paperwork bureaucracy, um, as well as terrain supply logistics. If I didn't mention that before. Um, so there are other competing new technologies out there and it's not even batteries, different, even mechanical, um, energy storage systems, or, um, there's a lot of, uh, really cool and interesting, um, non-battery solutions as well. Second life, I think plays in with, uh, in special applications where you have the supply, you have the supply close and you can put that in. And it's, it's meeting the demand that you need at that utility point. And there's a, you know, a lot of different utility cases. I mean, my, my answer to you is it all depends, right.

34:00Um, on what we, we decide to source and then, and who we source it from and whether it's lithium-ion batteries or whether it's a different storage technology. Um, so I think that was the bulk of your first question. I'm trying to, um, think, and then the second one, you know, uh, Charlie's going to probably have better, um, answer to this, but, um, the economics are you're right in the, there's so many different inputs between the chemistry, you know, chemistry, like I mentioned before is going to dictate the voltage and energy density, um, of the cell and then of the, where it's going to be put. So all that has to factor in, you know, the best case scenarios that you have a supply of all Nissan Leafs from let's say 2011, um, production data, 2011 vehicles, and you have all the same coming in that makes it a lot easier and a lot more, um, efficient to sort through and repurpose and refer those to a particular application application.

34:55And from a business model, you know, I have a lot of experience in the ICE world. Um, I don't know what's going to work here because there's still talk on who owns the asset. And, and, you know, when we talk about a lead acid battery, that's an $80 asset. Everybody in the supply chain of, of selling that battery, installing that battery down to the consumer has a monetary stake in that to recycle it. So, you know, at a point of purchase, when you buy a lead acid battery, you're paying a core charge, which is dictated by States. And I'm speaking mostly in the U S here that if you don't return that, you lose that not a big monetary thing, but people, you know, you don't want to pay more than you have to, but the, that whole supply chain, every stakeholder has a monetary responsibility in there. I don't know how that translates to lithium-ion batteries. It's totally different model, but there's things we can learn from the other world too.

35:48You know, and it comes down to who owns that asset. And I don't, I don't know what the best, the answer is yet. And I don't know the economics of that yet. That's not really a great answer. I know, but Charlie, I'll let you kind of come in. Cause I just don't, yeah. The economic model, I don't know what the best one would be for this. Yeah. I mean, I, I think on a good day, what, what we want to achieve is that any application where lithium-ion is going to be best, it shouldn't matter if it's second life or not second life. Um, I, I was a director at a flow battery company, so I know that, um, you really just, it's really the right tool for the right application. So, um, in cases where, uh, you're doing high cycling and extremely high depth of discharge, you're probably going to want to go with a flow battery, assuming that it's, it's cost effective. Um, but I think where, where we want to get to, and this goes back to the, the MIT study, um, is that, uh, is setting, uh, setting the duty cycle on a, on a second life so that, um, you can achieve that, that 10 year warranty.

36:52So, um, that's, that's really the, the standard that you're, that you're living up to, um, for, um, a serialized product that you're, you're, you're making many of or, uh, a standalone project. So, um, if you can achieve that, then like I said, there, there really shouldn't be any difference, um, between selecting a second life battery and a, uh, one, one straight from the factory. So. Brilliant. Do you have a question? Oh, no, no. Thanks. Thanks. Should we go next with Stockton? Sure. Hi. Hi, everyone. Nice to meet you. And thank you for a great room. Um, I just introduced myself and I'm here, uh, learning from all of you. Uh, I'm a technology scientist with the neck for business entrepreneur and entrepreneurship. I recently joined a nano diamond battery startup as a chief business developer. Uh, nano diamond battery is a universal lifeline self-charging battery, meaning single users lifetime. It will produce, uh, more power for different applications. And the technology is harvesting different energy power from recycled nuclear waste.

38:11Um, I'm talking to them and I'm speaking down. Thank you. Thanks so much. So, uh, I see that we are about halfway through the session and we do have a lot of interest in this, um, topic. So thank you so much, Maggie and Charlie for your great sharing. Um, so let's move on to Barath. Barath, would you like to, um, have the mic? Yeah, sure. Uh, thank you so much for giving this opportunity. So, uh, my basic question is that, uh, they are all talking about this, uh, utilization of second year, uh, in the second life batteries in a storage applications. What do you think about the standardization of batteries effect on the second life? Do you think that standardization of battery will have a effect on the second life of the battery? I'm not sure I understood the standardization. You're asking if the standardization of the battery packs would have an impact. And as far as like chemistry and supplier design, uh, because if that's the case, yeah, I'd say absolutely the more standard, the, the, the, the source is going into a vehicle and then coming out and going into a repurposing scenario.

39:29Obviously that's going to make things a lot easier. Um, now I'm not talking technical, you know, if it's a high voltage or things like that, but obviously the more standardization you have at the front end of the supply chain, the easier it will be. And more economically as well. I think that's what you were asking. Yeah, of course. Yes. Okay. Can I answer the question? We are not going towards standardization. We are going to work customization. So, um, the direction is customization. Opposite to standardization. Yeah. But what do you think about the standardization policy of just proposed by China? You know, it's all about the cooperation between the automobile manufacturers, because you know, companies like NIO are also planning to sell their automobiles without selling their batteries. You can lease the battery from some third party people. So what do you think the standardization is working in China? Do you think it will be imported to European market and Indian market, something else like this in your future?

40:33No. I mean, standardization, but, um, standardization anywhere is going to obviously make everything easier. Even, you know, the European norm, um, you know, that's not only the dollar, but even coming down to the automotive, it's, it's making common parts for all vehicles so that the number of SKUs go down, the number of SKUs go down. Obviously it's economically better from a manufacturing standpoint. But like, as Milo said, we're not headed there. I mean, there's, there's customized, there's a lot of different chemistries out there and, you know, the chemistry is going to be different for different, um, even within the same chemistry, there's different, um, um, ratios of, of metals, which is going to impact performance and energy density and, and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so in speaking with, with second life integrators and folks who are doing both large projects and, and, and serialized products is, um, you know, first and foremost is supply. And you can't go in and mix and match a bunch of different types of batteries into the same system.

41:34It's not going to turn out well. Um, so, um, any, any level of standardization, if you look at what Volkswagen is doing with their platform, um, that should increase the desirability and then therefore cost or, or whatever else that's, that's associated with it. And, uh, once these batteries do enter, um, uh, their second life. Yeah. And I would say, you know, you know, even in the past 10 years, um, in the ICE world, there's been a lot of movement towards standardization. And I think the EV market will eventually get there. I wish, I hope they get there faster than, um, then it took the ICE world, but you're, you know, especially after 20, 2008, you saw everybody re-headquartering over in Europe, um, more in an effort to standardize, you know, cause we had different parts and pieces from Europe versus the U S versus Canada, which became increasingly complex, which drives cost up. I think the standard, we can go to standardization maybe next decade after, uh, some of the technologies will win the, will win the, um, market.

42:40I hope so. I mean, I, it took ICE forever. That was a very slow market. That's what I would hope it would do, but who knows? Keep your fingers pressed. So not this decade. No, exactly. Let's hope for next decade, but I'm skeptical. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. Ardun, would you like to go, Nick? Yeah. Um, thanks everyone. Um, so I happen to be an ex-telecom entrepreneur who's now in the battery space. So I can tell you from a couple of perspectives, uh, that I've seen in the telecom world, the question of standardization. I think a lot of the standardizations will be driven by geopolitics. Even the charging standards, for example, is being driven by, uh, different, uh, geopolitical, uh, you know, moves which are happening across, uh, across the world. And as we said, that will take a long, long time. We've seen that in the telecom world, uh, GSMA and ITU standards became, uh, same everywhere. There is going to be a lot of geopolitical moves, which will determine these standardizations.

43:50So let's not, uh, depend on that. The second part was the question about the, um, the use cases. And I have a very simple point to make that we should not be driven by the, um, you know, the current market of energy. When we are looking at, uh, the second life batteries, we should be looking at markets where there is no energy source today. And the only alternative would be, uh, fossil fuels. So diesel powered generators. Those are the kinds of markets that, uh, you know, a second life application will work very well. Um, so I'm aware of, uh, you know, small implementations already happening in India where I'm based out of, and obviously it's a complex ecosystem. Um, also the important part is who owns the asset. A lot of the developing economies will see battery implementations in mobility, um, being done by three wheelers and two wheelers. Which are essentially financed by banks and financial institutions who are the owners of the asset.

44:57And they have a vested interest, uh, in trying to understand the state of health at the end of the life cycle. And what is the possible use of, uh, the second life application? Where can we sell the battery to maximize the app? So I think there'll be some very interesting models of, uh, you know, business models, which will come up where I think finance companies, leasing companies will also pay a big role. So that is all. No, I agree. I would love to find, I'd say smaller applications from a footprint standpoint. Um, the economics becomes an issue. Excuse me as you go smaller. Um, but even, you know, if you look at residential applications, if I have a solar panel on my roof and I want to throw a second life battery, that's going to cost more than if I, you know, I'm building a large system. Um, but I agree with you there. I, I, I would hope that there are other applications that can replace diesel, um, even in, I hate say concerts or, or anything where like even mobile applications.

46:03Concerts and all will not happen. Uh, I think those are the wrong use cases we are looking at. It's going to be much smaller use cases. Uh, let's think of, uh, uh, a small factory, which has a standby diesel generator for. Okay. So you're talking bigger than me. Right. Yeah. Okay. No, I agree. It has to be small applications and, uh, it's already happening. But not supposed to be high. Yeah. So that is rare because, uh, to give you an economic, uh, comparison in India, diesel generates, uh, diesel generators cost 15 rupees a kilowatt hour. Uh, and even the second life battery will be a fraction of that. I mean, talking about 30, 40%. So even the economics will work if you start comparing, uh, a replacement of diesel generators. Yeah. And smaller. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I was going too small. Yeah. I agree. Um, Arjun, uh, brought up one of my sort of favorite applications, uh, is the, the two and three wheel, and especially sort of the, the, the shared charging model so that, um, that second life batteries do find their way, um, to, uh, two and three wheel mobility and, and, and their markets.

47:09And, um, they are able to swap these, uh, these packs out so they can, they can keep going. So, um, it's a, it's an absolutely huge market because you're talking about tens of millions of, of, um, uh, I'll give you some numbers. Yeah. In India, you're selling about half a million of these, uh, battery powered vehicles. Uh, it's just the starting in this last two years. This market. And 90%, 95% of it would be probably, uh, these two wheelers and three wheels. And they have a battery life of just two years. It's probably less. So you're, you're having the cycles of, you know, extended producer responsibility, which does not exist in India. You are going to see this in two years down the line, not even looking at a 10 year, 15 year cycles that you in the U S or Europe are talking about. It's going to see this in just two years. And all these millions of batteries will now start becoming redundant.

48:07So what do you do with it? So the problem is now for India and the problem, the second life usage, uh, opportunity will also come in the next one year or so. So that's the, that's my sense. Thanks so much, everyone. Thank you. Thanks, Arjun. Let's move on to Divek. Hi. Thanks everyone. I think it was an interesting session. I mean, uh, it was a complete clickbait for me when I had to read about second life batteries, because me for one, I mean, I'm, I'm just quoting the numbers as what it is today. And this is the reason why I said it's good for me. Uh, today batteries are priced at around about $120 per kilowatt hour. Assuming that an average life of about eight years on an EV application, we're looking at around about 70 to about $80 per kilowatt hour, 60 to $70 per kilowatt hour in the next eight years. That is probably by 2020, by 2030, right? At that price point, does second life batteries really make sense?

49:19A, primary from a cost standpoint and B, from a point saying that, Hey, you know what? It's much better if we recycle this right now, rather than, you know, probably using it for second life. This first, this one, this is my first question. The second question is, um, also with regards to the data. So there's a whole lot of data that the battery throws along the life cycle. And that's something which is extremely important if you're looking at second life batteries. Now, wouldn't that be a part of a mobility services, um, for, uh, an electric vehicle OEM rather than a standalone company, probably, uh, building or, uh, building second, second life batteries or anything else. Thanks. I'm done. Mary, you want this one first? Yeah, I'll take the first part of this. Um, so yeah, as the price goes down of packs, even $60 per kilowatt hour, you know, it almost it definitely doesn't make sense in the current scheme that we're, we're working on now.

50:16You'd have to have, I would say, um, volume to compensate for, for the lower price. Um, and unfortunately I don't think recycling is, is the answer either. And just sending it to recycling because the economics as the price goes down as well, isn't going to make sense either. Um, so I think for both reuse, repurposing, and even recycling as the price of the battery goes down, you need to have that volume to make up for that and make it economically, um, viable to, to reuse that and not send it just to a landfill. Um, so that was, I, I'm sorry, I lost the second part of your question. Um, I was thinking about the first one in my answer to that. Um, no, I think it has more to, more to do with the pricing and the durability of this business model. And I've actually, um, yeah. So, um, one of my clients I've, I've helped with on the department of energy grant. Um, and one of those things was, was proving the durability of this market.

51:12Um, those prices that people throw around in terms of price per kilowatt hour, um, there's basically less than a hundred OEMs in the world that, that pay those prices. And for the rest of us, mere mortals, uh, we're paying two and three times that, um, Maggie works for a multi-billion dollar company. And I don't think Enel gets those prices. Um, so to put everything on a level playing field, um, to get a true apples to apples, um, you know, the, the price for, you know, price per kilowatt hour for a second life battery, um, needs to be compared for, um, you know, those outside of those large OEMs, um, and what they're, what they're paying for kilowatt hour. So, um, you know, the, the $80 per kilowatt hour for, for a second life battery versus, you know, a hundred because Bloomberg says so. Um, it's, it's a false equivalency. So, um, you should probably multiply that, that number by two for Bloomberg and, and understand that, that the second life, uh, model is durable.

52:14So then, uh, just to follow that up with, uh, with you, Maggie and Charlie is what price per kilowatt hour do you think a second life battery would make sense? I mean, let's even say 2030. I don't know, but I would have to say it's gotta be 50 or 60%. It's gotta be 50% max of the original first life battery. Um, but there's so much that goes into it and the procurement logistics, all of like that entire supply chain is super sensitive. Um, so any up or down within any step of that is going to impact your, your price. Um, Charlie, your, your thoughts. Yeah. So, I mean, even if, you know, if you're given two options, a and B a is to reuse and B is to recycle, um, right now that, that recycling option isn't paying much. Um, if anything. Um, so, um, you know, at that point it's, it's, you're using the reusing this battery in a second life. And there are buyers, um, is that you, you do go with that option, uh, down to the point where the recycler is, is going to start paying you for, which again, we're, we're getting there in terms of, um, realizing value for, for, you know, turning the battery, uh, for recycling purposes, but, um, we're a long way from those, uh, second life price, uh, uh, reaching recycling price.

53:33Right. So, and yeah, think of, yeah, think, and think of this as downward and downward and upward price pressure. Um, you know, and like I said, this, the, the, the second life model is, is far more durable than, than it first appears, especially when you're comparing it to, to, uh, equal comparisons. So. Right. Right. I mean, I'll probably take that 50 to 60% and probably run at that. Uh, and, and that's the reason why I said it's a clickbait because I, for one have, have had very strong, uh, reservations on second life, but nevertheless, uh, the second part of the question was Maggie, since you didn't hear that, uh, is today, when you look at it, I mean, there's a whole lot of data that's been generated from the cradle to probably the grave when it comes to any battery itself. Now that's something that the mobility company, the mobility companies would. probably have access to. Which they might not end up sharing it to the outside world.

54:29So do you see this as another part of a mobility service that an OEM can get into? A. If yes, where does it leave startups, which are working primarily on either the second life batteries or recyclability of the batteries? So let me, I'm trying to understand your question and I'm so sorry. It just might be a Saturday morning thing and I need a cup of coffee. Um, you're asking about, uh, industry data, um, and that I think the value of the data, um, and data sharing. And then as the industry associations become larger, what does that mean to smaller startups that are trying to get into the space? No. So what I was trying to say is, yeah, the OEMs have a lot of data, right? I mean, like today we, uh, today an OEM is collecting the data from the cradle all the way down to the grave of a battery pack. Yeah. Right. So he holds the data. Right. So would this be an OEMs mobility services play where they come out with second life batteries?

55:38If yet, then where does it leave the startups, which are just focusing on second life batteries and, uh, don't have the data or yeah. So, I mean, with the battery management systems, everybody is, you know, tracking, you can track everything within the vehicle. Um, you know, I'd love to see industry associations though. Just thinking back to, you know, my time, um, in automotive, we had places that we could collectively and, um, anonymously collect all the data that we had for at least manufacturing shipment, um, and life cycle. Um, but you're basically saying, and I'm so sorry if I'm not understanding this, you know, the bigger players have more access to data, which can then go into the product, uh, life cycle, um, and it makes them more equipped to make changes that are profitable, um, and equitable. And then, you know, the startups are sitting there without the data and they're trying to get into the space. Um, yeah, I think there's places for everybody to be involved and that's when you start to see acquisitions, um, based on technology.

56:38Um, but I think as the industry grows, there's going to be more data that's available that's being collected by different industries by different, um, market research that could then help, um, with the smaller companies. So I'm hoping that answers. I'm so sorry if I'm getting caught up in understanding. Charlie, save me. Any more comments. No, no, no, no, it's totally fine. Um, so one of the, one of the parts of the EU battery directive that was released in December, it's not law yet, but it's, it's, you know, it's, uh, in some form it will be at some point, um, is that, um, they're going to release the battery data, uh, to the owner, uh, at end of life. And this probably broadly aligns with, um, other, uh, personal data, um, uh, laws that are, that are in the EU. Um, so what this is going to do is this is going to, you're, you're going to be handed some sort of certificate or something, um, when your battery is swapped out, uh, where the OEM is going to say, here's your battery state of health.

57:37Um, that's great. That's transparent. That certainly helps. Um, but from what I gather and the technology that's, uh, that's available in the battery management systems of the cars now is that, uh, the accuracy isn't all that great. So, um, they can give you the data on your batteries and how healthy they are at the end of their life. Um, but there's going to be a question of accuracy, uh, just based on the technology that's available right now. Yeah. I just wanted to add one thing, maybe, uh, uh, regarding this, uh, battery data, as you know, this automobile manufacturers or the mobility companies are not ready to share the data because in Europe also, they are talking about the open database, which the companies can share the data in order to use it for some research and things for us and all. It's not going to happen for this decade. I hope so. But you know, this, a lot of startups are playing there in doing this battery analytics in the battery storage systems, you know, like a very good companies like Fluence and some other great companies are doing this kind of stuff.

58:37They acquire some startups also. Definitely. There will be some, uh, quite good opportunity for startups in this data analytics and data management in, in terms of, you know, the battery datas. But I don't think so. The OEMs will, uh, allow startups to work as a, you know, consultant or a service provider. They want their complete, you know, control over the data in order to have a, you know, better control over the system. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think that the whole point of the law is to, to, you know, force the OEMs to say, Hey, look, this isn't your data. This is, this is your, you know, the, the, the battery owner's data or the car owner's data. So, um, again, this is, this is one of those things that's getting shuttlecocked back and forth. I'm sure in the EU, in terms of where the final law is going to land. Um, but it's at least being discussed at this point, um, you know, who's, who is going to, who is ultimately going to own, own the data.

59:30Um, you would imagine that, um, you know, you went and spent 30, 40,000, even more on a, on a car that, um, that the data would be available to you, but we'll see where it lands. Yeah. I mean, as an OEM, I wouldn't, I wouldn't make the data available at all. It's valuable. It's super valuable. However, you know, like I said, in, in, at least in the U S and the trade manufacturers associations, you know, we, we were sharing data to an anonymous or to a, you know, a clearing house like price, uh, Cooper. Um, and then they were anonymizing it and sending it back. And that obviously helped us with planning and things like that along the supply chain. But, um, that's interesting. So I wasn't aware of the EU, um, directive and, um, and the, the potential of who owns the data and goes back to who owns the asset and the economics around all that. So can I just jump, jump in on this, on, on this topic, which is obviously very interesting to, uh, to the whole industry community.

1:00:24I think the best analogy that you might look at, at least in the EU is the open banking directive in the FinTech sector, whereby the data that belongs to, you know, any customer, individual customer or company actually can be shared with third parties. And they, it took obviously years to get to that directive. But I think this is really the best analogy that, that, that, that, that we have in the market, the open banking directive. No, that's, that's, um, yeah. And I, I'll just have one more thing on top of that. Maggie, you made a very good point. It all depends on who owns the asset. In the US, probably it's very clear that the OEM owns the asset. It's not so sure in many other economies because, uh, uh, in, in India, for example, the battery is, there's a policy which is allowing the battery to be sold separately from the, from the vehicle. Every single vehicle is finally financed by a, a banking or a financial institution.

1:01:20The financial institution legally is the owner of the asset. Um, so I think it's still, um, it's an open question actually, who owns the asset? And who technically owns the asset? Yep, absolutely. Uh, and it just, on a side, tells me as someone who has a medical device, I don't own the data that it collects on my body. So as I'm listening to this and the, the, you know, the availability of data from a vehicle's battery being, um, offered to the, the owner is killing me right now because I'm still fighting the fight to get my data from my own body. So sorry, it's a side note that, uh, there's a thorn in my side. Thank you so much, everyone. Um, just looking at the time, we just hit, um, the hour. So we have been over an hour, which leaves us about 23 minutes or so for the session. And we still have a few people with, um, new on stage who would like to give a chance to speak, but also if you're an audience, you know, you want to, you want to ask any question, you want to contribute anything.

1:02:20Now's probably a good time to raise your hand because in our experience, the last few minutes is going to be the most busy, um, in these sessions. So maybe you can go next to Sonu. Uh, thank you, Simon. Uh, it's a very great discussion actually. This is my first day in this group. And I think I will try and join as many sessions as possible. Uh, I want to introduce myself. I am Sonu from India and I've worked for solar power plants and India has started working on battery BESS, uh, system for utility, uh, scale for the grid stabilization and, um, other, factors. However, my question here is, uh, I'll ask about technical stuff. We are not able to calculate how much power is curtailed at the peak hour from the inverter so that we can design our system accordingly, like battery storage system accordingly. We are not able to do that as of now, but yes, because we know the power, whatever the power will be forecasted.

1:03:22We know that that is how we can design the system. Um, according to me, maybe we will be over designing a battery system because of this, because we are not sure how much power will be curtailed at, uh, at the inverter. So, there is a possibility that we will be over designing and therefore there will be too many battery banks at the system, which is wastage. Um, second thing is in India, uh, at utility scale, yes, we will always buy first hand batteries, but when it comes to like Arjun mentioned, like auto rickshaws, electrical vehicles, as in electrical rickshaws are here in India. They are running on batteries. They will always try and buy the second hand battery. That is how Indian economy will run. Unfortunately. So, what is the solution for that? Because that will be here in India. Another thing is, uh, my brother is working with electrical vehicle, one of the companies here in Noida and these people do not maintain battery that well.

1:04:22So, do you think, you know, giving them first hand battery is better or, you know, providing them second hand battery, which is in a better condition that is better? Um, so your first question was about kind of sizing the battery bank for your system based on the inverter. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I typically always try to max out the inverter on smaller systems, you know, larger systems, it's going to be a little bit different, but you're, you're concerned with the power, um, output, which that's all going to depend on how you're sizing that battery bank based on the inverter. I think that was the question. Um, and secondly, on the first versus second, you know, it's another variable in this, this kind of complex question of, uh, is the owner's maintenance on these batteries and do you use first or second life? Um, you know, I think even in the design of the battery system, I think all, all lithium-ion batteries are over-designed even in vehicles, you know, just knowing that the performance point is, you know, uh, you still have 80% of the capacity, but that's a topic for another discussion.

1:05:30Um, but I think it's, it's all going to depend on the pricing, the, uh, supply, um, of whether you can get a first or second life battery, and then designing the system so that the owner can't screw it up is always a good thing. You know, we designed a lot of, um, uh, things for, for, especially in transportation so that the owner can't, um, disrupt the, the performance of that part. So unfortunately I don't have an answer for you. I think it's, I think, you know, I have a big step, better design. Okay. I'll just add one more point, one, one last point. Uh, so no transportation solution should never own a, you know, should never have a, a second life battery. I think that's, uh, the way the systems are designed. I don't think it's a good idea because the state of health over a period of time, fundamentally that's, that's never the thing. There is, there is mobility applications for first life and static applications for, uh, second life.

1:06:31And that's the thumb rule that we should always. And that's dictated by a lot of regulation too. I mean, I know in the U S it's very difficult. In India, there is no regulations, but, but in India, there is no regulations on this, by the way. Yeah. Having said that, uh, you know, that is the thumb rule that all engineers follow. I'll also ask, answer one more point on the first point that you said. Sorry, I didn't. Well, just one thing. That's just, let's stay polite and let everyone speak. Okay. So let's just finish a point and then maybe you can speak as well. Okay, fine. I was actually finishing. From an engineering standpoint, totally agree with you, but then you, you have other people in the supply chain, the sales. Um, the people who count the beans and everything like that, that, you know, even a, you know, a blend product can go into transportation, but I agree with you. I I'd always err on the, you know, first life versus second life.

1:07:23Um, and any, anything that's moving people. I know one thing, what my experience in looking at battery systems in India was temperature, um, at the ambient temperature. And, um, that was really the overriding, you know, factor and, uh, determining, you know, what kind of system and everything else. So, and of course that plays into safety, um, probably, probably, you know, you know, ahead of performance and everything else. So, um, is second life better for, uh, you know, a, you know, a hot environment? Um, that actually I do not have an answer to, but, um, I know that, um, the operating envelope is, is, you know, first and foremost in that particular market. Yeah. And it all depends, right? It depends on the system, the cooling, the, how the system's operating at particular temperatures. So there's not really, I agree with Charlie, not a set answer from a technical standpoint. But may I, may I add one more point here? That's okay. Yes, please. And then I think David also raised his hand, so we can just go by all the Midos also to quick points.

1:08:27So we can do this quickly, this order. So I think, uh, yeah, in, as far as, uh, from my experience, most battery management systems are designed, or at least they have been conditioned to handle the, the heat envelope and the, and the challenges of temperature and cell balancing. So I think fundamentally, uh, that's not such a big concern, because temperature is a big issue in me, especially in North India, summer months. So that's all right. Yep. Totally agree. Simon, uh, can I, may I? Yes. Um, so, so on the first point that you mentioned, I think what you need is a data loss. And that, that actually gives you the peak current that you can actually, that your system is actually drawing. Uh, and, uh, Charlie, there was another point that you mentioned where you spoke about swap with batteries and so on and so forth. And I agree to what Maggie said that today, battery packs need to be oversized. And I disagree to the fact that Arjun said that temperature is not a concern.

1:09:23We've been putting out atium battery packs and temperature is one of the biggest concerns. And if you don't oversize them, it's only going to be catastrophic. And that is where today, uh, you know, the swappable batteries, so to speak, is definitely not the, uh, not the only mode because they come smaller in size because it's made for convenience and not for safety. Thanks. Thank you, Javik. Milo, did you have a quick point as well? Also? Yeah. Yes. I will, uh, tell you one provocative statement. After carefully analyzing this issue of the, uh, uh, battery second life, I think, uh, or I'm more convinced that the, uh, business model of the second battery life, uh, is, uh, in the mainstream, uh, mainstream business model is that on the arrival. So basically there is no feasible use for the second use of the battery long term, especially in the next decade. And that's where the most of the batteries will come to the stream. To the mainstream, my most important argument is that, uh, it's more feasible to recycle them and to sell them like the raw material for the second use of the battery or, or the other use.

1:10:48I mean, I wanted to voice your statement and, uh, Maggie or Charlie or somebody, if you have counter argument, maybe we can talk about it. I wanted to, uh, say, uh, like the discussion for the discussion purposes, but that's what I think. And I wish there was a recycling technology that was economical. I mean, just the, when you look at the cost of procurement, I mean, I, I would love to see these recycled, but I just, I don't know. I, there's not even a place right now. I mean, the technology is immature. It's going to mature over time. Absolutely. And once it matures, then you can work on the profit, um, profitability. Um, but the, the reclamation of, of what you get out of recycling, you're not selling it for what you bought the pack for today. And also, you know, at scale. No, because they have only one problem. Those recycling companies, they are already technologies and they can recycle 95% of the materials.

1:11:52The problem is that they don't have enough batteries today because, uh, we don't have yet enough batteries for recycling. The recycling issue will become issue next decade, not this decade. When those cars which they are sold today, they will come for the recycle. So, yeah, like my point about scale. Yeah. At scale, most recycling, any industry, you have to be almost at a hundred percent capacity to make any profit. It's a penny scheme, but I, I, with the amount of materials coming out, I'm still not seeing that I'm selling the lithium cobalt and nickel for more than what I bought and what I, it cost me to recycle it. But if people are making money at it, great. That's what we need. I haven't seen it. Yeah. They are already making money. Okay. They're already making money today with the limited, uh, supply of the, uh, battery. So they're making money at less than a hundred percent capacity. That's great. So once they get to a hundred, you know, who, who's doing this?

1:12:53I'm just not aware. So there are at least like three companies here in the United States, uh, light cycle, redwood materials, which they are building the, uh, technologies. And I'm saying that up, you know, until end of the decade, these technologies will especially improve and companies will grow in the recycling of those batteries. Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, we're not talking about today. I agree with you that, you know, in the future as the technology matures and they, they are able to recycle at capacity, a hundred percent capacity at scale with a lot more, you know, sure. Um, but today I don't, I don't see that happening right now. I think. Uh, yeah, it's, I wouldn't, I wouldn't invest. There's not a profit being made today at the capacity that they're operating and they do need the, the, the feedstock in at scale. They need to be at a hundred percent. And like I said, as the, as technology matures, then you start looking at your profit stream and where you can save money, make money.

1:13:51Um, and, and you have more of a circular economy. And on top of that, uh, those batteries, which they will come to the, in the end of the life, uh, uh, they will not be able to, you are not going to be able to use them for the secondary battery because they are part of the structural part of the vehicle. So unless you want to place your, uh, uh, used vehicle to your garage and use it like the battery, you can, I think you can do it if you are individual, but like I said, main, this mainstream business model is dead on the arrival. Thank you very much, my loss for this intervention. And, um, I think, yeah, I mean, one thing is also, I mean, also comes quite clear, right. We also had a session on recycling before, and I think, you know, these numbers, you know, I mean, I think there's also lack a bit of transparency of like, who's actually making what money right now and what processes are getting what percentages of results.

1:14:50Um, so I think, you know, we had this in previous discussion as well. And one last thing also, maybe just to mention from my side, that's right. I mean, I think which also becomes quite clear, right. Like hearing, you know, different use cases for like, you know, from two wheelers to EVs and others, um, different countries. I think there's going to be more nuance to it, right. To just say, this is the way it's going to work worldwide. I think they're going to be also different use cases, potentially based on different countries and different devices as well. Um, but looking at the time, I think probably be a good time now to go to Dhruv and then Edwin, then so Stefan as well, because we have 10 minutes. Yeah. Oh, hi guys. So yeah, I'm Dhruv. This is my first time in the group, uh, first, like very early start to clubhouse. Great discussion. Uh, so I just wanted to ask a couple of questions.

1:15:38One would be let's, uh, building on what, um, you know, what my loss was saying. Do, do we feel that, uh, as a whole, this is a stopgap solution or is this something more long-term because are we, are we trying to, I would look at it from the critical mineral standpoint that, uh, by extending the usable life of a battery and then recycling it, you might be using lesser critical minerals overall, or are we, are we looking? So in that case, do we want government regulations to kind of support the use of batteries or are we saying that it's just a stopgap solution and, uh, we don't need to be supporting it, uh, from the government. And it's just something that we are trying to be just looking at in terms of a market opportunity. Second, what kind of, uh, what kind of, uh, value does the EV owner get from the battery? Are we owners seeing returns from, um, this implementation of second life?

1:16:43Uh, for example, uh, when an EV owner gives their, uh, when their batteries are swapped by the OEM and the batteries are taken, does the EV owner see some of the returns? Because obviously the battery, the OEM is then going to monetize the battery and then use it for a second life application. So just what, uh, those are my basic two questions. Yeah. Thank you. Um, so the first one is, you know, do we see in the future, is it going to be second life or is it going to be recycling? And personally, I'd like to see both because if we're designing packs that come out of service with 80% useful capacity, let's use them. Um, why, you know, like we're always over designing everything, I think in this space, but that's, you know, that's my personal opinion. Um, and secondly, I mean, I think there's still a lot of debate on the business model of what the EV owner owns. Um, and whether the OEM owns the asset or the owner owns the asset and if they're going to be compensated for any, um, extended use or trade in or anything like that.

1:17:43Um, so not much of an answer again, depends. Um, I'll go ahead and give my two cents for what it's worth. Um, um, I'll, I'll stick by the, the viability of this, this, this business model, you know, at least through the end of the decade. And that, um, uh, used battery, you know, second life battery will, you know, ultimately add more value than buying a new battery. Um, you know, especially if you're not a large OEM, um, and the downside pressure of, um, what a recycler is willing to pay you first, what somebody else is willing to pay you for a second life battery to keep that battery in service for the next 10 years. Um, on, on, as far as the second part and who, who reaps this value. Um, my research has, has shown me, it's actually the person who's changing the battery out. So be that a, a, a, a dealership, um, uh, an OEM service shop, or even, uh, now there's a small number of independent service shops who will treat the battery essentially as the battery pack as a core.

1:18:45So what they're going to do is they're going to remove, they're going to remove the spent battery pack and they're going to give you a new one. And essentially is that you, you won't be paying a core charge. So it would actually be, um, in, in most cases, the service shop, uh, be it an OEM or an independent who's actually realizing some, uh, the value here, uh, in the spent battery. So not necessarily the EV owner themselves, um, unless they're willing to pay, pay the core charge. So, um, now to put everything into context, um, mechanics everywhere, independent and, and, uh, the OEM mechanics are, are standing to lose, uh, quite a bit of business, um, as we transition to EVs, uh, less parts, less moving parts, all these other things. So, um, I, I look at this as a, maybe a necessary form of revenue, um, to help everyone in business, um, and, uh, just to, to keep things so that OEMs, um, do not become EVs.

1:19:41They do need these revenue streams, um, and they do need, um, you know, something to, to supplement, um, cars that are, uh, ice, ice vehicles that, that do require more maintenance. Right. So just one last thing. So do you then, uh, feel that something like EPR, you know, extended producer responsibility and the batteries coming back to the producers would then kind of eat into that value for the, uh, mechanics and, you know, people like that. Is that something we need to look at? Um, I, I would hope so again, I mean, people do stand to lose, uh, during, you know, in, in transition to EVs. Um, I, I would hope that as many folks as we can, we can transition together and keep as many folks as, you know, employed as possible so that there's, um, not aversion from any one group, especially, you know, a group that has been, you know, a part of this, this mobility for the past hundred years gets left out.

1:20:36And so, and if I could just add before people leave, I just want to make sure, you know, connect with Charlie and I on LinkedIn and Charlie has also started a second life, um, LinkedIn group. Um, so I just want to make sure I mentioned that as people are leaving towards the end of this session. Fantastic. Yeah. And I mean, there's definitely a shout out maybe do this at the end as well, but if you want, of course, follow Maggie and Charlie on Clubhouse and as well, connect to LinkedIn and you can also follow the battery evolution club on top. We notified about future sessions. Battery, the battery den and the 26. Exactly. And I think we're going to do a bit of a plug on this and end as well. But before we do that, let's go to Edwin and Stefan as well. Cause Edwin there. Uh, yeah. Hi, Edwin here, joining from the Netherlands. Uh, Maggie, you mentioned the battery system using, reusing the Nissan Leaf batteries, uh, at, uh, Rainier Stadium in Amsterdam, or you called it the, uh, Ajax Stadium. Um, but you weren't sure if the system was ever realized.

1:21:43I can confirm you that they have added this system because they are even very proud of that. Um, it's not necessary for outages, uh, what you name, but, and, uh, because in the Netherlands, the grid is very reliable. Um, but, uh, you can monetize the battery capacity during peak hours and that can give you a lot of money. In fact, um, if you look to it from a return on investment perspective, you can, uh, um, uh, you can achieve that in three to four hours, uh, a year, sorry, hours, a year, uh, due to government subsidies and, and due to the monetization. Um, and good examples do, do get followers. So today you see even all, all larger soccer stadiums get, uh, soda panels and, uh, and, and battery system that I wanted to add. Uh, that's great to hear. I, I, I wrote about that stadium a couple of years ago, um, as they were implementing it. And I just didn't have a chance to check up on it today before this talk. So I wrote a lot about, um, sports and sustainability, uh, when I was publishing. So, um, glad to hear. And thanks for that update.

1:22:59Great. Thank you. And then Stefan, did you have another point? Uh, yes. Hi everyone. Uh, it's actually more, uh, I don't have really questions, more of a comment that kind of a takeaway from this conversation, which obviously is as interesting as every 20, um, um, rooms that you, that you had since, uh, since the beginning of the year. Um, I just wanted to say, so based on your comment, Simon, you know, I think it's really a question of nuance and given what Arjun and, and Deepak have said regarding the Indian market and the dynamics for two and three wheelers. Um, I think the arbitrage between recycling and second life battery might come sooner than we expect. Um, but I think we all also, we all always focused more on the EV and the recyclability on second life batteries, um, for those kinds of vehicles. But I think the Indian market might, might provide a very interesting, uh, bet case for, uh, the next, you know, three to four years.

1:24:03And, uh, and we'll see if those batteries can be recycled at scale with, with, with a certain level of profit. Or, uh, if we would have to consider second life batteries and there may be some interesting applications, obviously in the, in, in this market. I think it's really something to, to look forward to and to, to, to, to study going forward. Absolutely. I agree completely. You know, once we see a better business cases at scale, we're going to learn a lot more and be able to implement that into other regions and other areas. I would like to make one more point, uh, uh, toward the, we are predicting future because we, we are not talking about presence. We are talking about, uh, uh, uh, about 10 years from now, uh, what we are going to do with those batteries, which we are producing them and deploying them today. So 10 years from now, I'm saying that, uh, you wouldn't want to buy it. This battery, you wouldn't want to deploy this battery to get it for free because technology will be, uh, so far away from today's battery technology.

1:25:08So basically, uh, I'm making argument for the, we will recycle those batteries 10 years from now. We will not use them second time. Can I just add to that point as well, Simon? Just really quick. Yeah. This is exactly the reason why when I even started off, I said second life batteries is more a clickbait. It's not, I mean, I, that's where the numbers work out that, you know, economically it doesn't, it makes best sense to recycle than to reuse at least even after 80%. Thanks. Thanks. Charlie, Maggie, do you want to have a last word? Otherwise I can also say something about it. Um, no, I mean, I think we've had great discussion. And it, it, you know, the second life it's, it's, there's a lot of inputs. It's all going to depend on, um, the economics and where it goes and what it is and all of that. So I think there's, I think there's places for everybody to play in, in industries that can play in, in this space, whether it be recycling, repurposing, refurbishing, or, uh, making new batteries.

1:26:11So, yep. Yep. Um, having spent the past three years looking at these markets and where they can go and understand the technology of not every battery is suitable for second life, certainly, but a large number of them are. And it's, uh, it's the highest, uh, value process, uh, that, that we can, uh, that we can do, uh, at least for now. Like I said, I believe there's, uh, at least another seven to eight years of durability with this, with this model. Um, after that, we'll see where it goes. Thank you for that. And maybe just one quick thing also to add, right. And I very much agree with you, right. Like the, and maybe the click bite, you know, argument that there isn't like, you know, one solution, you know, which solve it all. It's not like this one, one breakthrough battery, which now revolutionize everything. Like, you know, often now to have seen the same as, you know, second life, of course it won't solve all the problems.

1:27:03Same as recycling. Right. I think it's always a nice combination. And I think what's, what's really valuable though is to have these really honest discussions of like, you know, where are the like advantages, where are the limitations? And then, you know, we can, we can grow based on this. And with that, maybe we can give it to Catherine to kind of close today's session. Um, yeah, thank you all so much. Um, it's, it's been really engaging discussion and please everyone give a shout out to, uh, clap to Maggie and Charlie. I think I put a little preparation to this. So thank you so much for keeping, you know, the session really engaging. And as, and I do see a lot of interest today as well. So thank you for the participants who, you know, really cooperated and help us kept on time. Um, so just, uh, just a shout out to also follow Maggie and Charlie on their LinkedIn and also on their, um, clubhouse profiles as well.

1:27:55They have great insights and would love to welcome you back to our next sessions. And last but not least, I think we've also mentioned that battery then will be happening on 26th of June. Um, Maggie here is also one of our dragons, uh, who, who, who will be joining us on the panel. So we're really looking forward to that. We had a great first session together and we're, you know, really welcoming for the startups to join us again this time around. So if you're a startup here, feel free to sign up, um, and the signup link is on my profile. Oh, it's currently not on my profile, but I'll add it on after the session. Well, thank you all so much for joining. Um, great to see all the familiar faces today. And, um, yeah, I'll pass on to Simon to close out the session. Thanks so much. Also a big shout out to Maggie and Charlie for really, you know, making this, um, session extra special.

1:28:44This is also invitation for, we actually have an open slot for next week. So if someone is interested, feel free to get in touch via LinkedIn and let us know. And, um, yeah, also, as you mentioned, Catherine, the link is actually also on battery evolution. So if you go on top, next to the little house, next on battery evolution in the description, also mentioned the website, which is battery evolution.club. And on there, you can also register for, um, you know, the, the battery then as a startup and we're looking forward to see many of you there. And just one last thing is if you're interested in the recordings of these sessions, and we started them when there wasn't an Android version, but we kept them. Cause not everyone can always make it on time. Um, or you want to listen back when you just joined the middle of it, you can go on battery insiders.com or battery insiders on Spotify, Apple podcasts, et cetera. And you can be listened to these sessions as well.

1:29:30I'm actually going to upload four sessions later today. So yeah, feel free to, to have a look, listen there. Yeah. With this really excited for, you know, for learning more and very excited for next week and the coming weeks. full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full full