Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Fit for 55

0:00Transcript

0:00Great. Thanks, everyone, for joining us back at our 29th session of Battery Evolution. Super excited today to be having Pantea to be joining us, talking about Fitful 55, basically about the new policy in EU. So really excited to hear about this topic. Before we start off and pass on the mic to Pantea for this exciting discussion, just a quick reminder to everyone who's here, who's new to CupHouse, or, you know, if you've not joined CupHouse for a while, we're very excited for everyone to join us on stage. And this session lasts for one and a half hours, so we really do encourage everyone to join us as early as possible. And we encourage, you know, everyone's opinions, and we really do value everyone's opinions as well. So once you're on stage, if you're not speaking, we would appreciate if you could keep your mic on mute. And if you wish to speak, just tap your mic twice, like so. And if you wish to applause or, you know, agree with something someone else is saying, just flutter your mic twice out.

1:02So as Simon mentioned earlier, these sessions will be recorded, and they will be available on Battery Insiders and Spotify and all the other different platforms as well. So feel free to check them out. And a quick update as to where we are right now, as mentioned by Simon, we're on the 29th week, and next week is the 30th week, and we'll actually be taking a short break that week. So there will be no session on the next Saturday. We really appreciate everyone tuning in so regularly, but we will be having, we already have our 31st session planned, so look out for that as well. Yeah, so, you know, really excited to kickstart today's session. Maybe I'll pass on to Simon before the mic is pantheist. Thank you so much, Catherine. Yeah, and also a big welcome from my side. As Catherine has mentioned, and people have been following us for a while, they know that Catherine and I, we actually met on Clubhouse and started doing this session 29 weeks ago, which is remarkable in some ways.

2:10And as Catherine mentioned, we're going to have a week off next week. We're giving us this one week. But yes, Catherine, I'm actually going to be back. If you are on the newsletter list of batteryinsiders.com, you already know the topic for the week after, but I won't spoil it here with a bit of a teaser for anybody listening. But yeah, so there's some really exciting speakers already lined up. But afterwards, I hope it will be worth the wait of the week. And yeah, without further ado, I think it's a good time to get pantheist started on the topic of today, Fit for 55. Thank you, Catherine. Thank Simon for inviting me and for your kind words. And welcome to everyone else in the audience. Well, the Fit for 55 package made a huge impact, not only for my industry. The history is that in December 2019, the EU Commission presented the EU Green Deal, which is a set of policy initiates to speed up the transition towards net zero greenhouse emissions by 2050, and also to meet the commitments assumed under the Paris Agreement in 2016, as far as I remember correctly.

3:29And this July, the Commission published its latest installment of the EU Green Deal, the so-called Fit for 55, the reason why we are here today. And the 55 do not refer to an annual figure. It refers to the goal to an EU greenhouse gas emissions cut of 55% by 2030 compared to 1990. And maybe you don't know the reason why 1990 is the benchmark, is that it was the first time that countries around the world seriously considered to work together to reduce emissions of heat-trapping gases. And then it led to the Kyoto Protocol and so on. So the key facts of the package before I come to the batteries or the impacts for the car automotive industry are that, so I'm sorry, I need my notes now, the expansion of renewable energies is to be driven more strongly. So from currently it's 32% up to 40%. The annual saving obligations should be increased by 1.5 percentage points, which means it corresponds almost a doubling. And the introduction of an additional emissions trading system for the transport building sector.

5:20And tightening the current emissions trading system by 18%. And also the package consists of restoring of nature and enabling biodiversity. And now in terms of the car industry, the package has a major impact on how future cars are powered and also on many jobs, which is relevant for the, for example, for the members of the association I'm working for. And actually it doesn't matter that France Timmermans claimed in advance that no bans would be imposed in this package, because if you read through this paper, the bottom line is that it is a ban of combustion vehicles. So for example, at the moment, a group's vehicle fleet is allowed to emit 95 grams per kilometer, if I'm right, of CO2. And until 2030, it has to be reduced by 60% and five years later to 100%. So you see this goal definitely can't be reached by, with fossil fuel cars. And according to a report of Transport and Environment, if someone's interested, I can send you the link to the study.

7:04It is really interesting. For example, they say that VW and Volvo are the only major car makers who are really ready in every part to switch to electric now at the moment. I know a few points have changed, but at the time when the study was conducted, I know a few points have changed. Yeah, these were the facts. And for example, Toyota, Jaguar, BMW, Stellantis and Daimler, they have or had no clear industrial strategy and an overly reliance on hybrids. So this report was published in June 21. And as far as I remember correctly, for example, Opel announced two weeks ago that its combustion engine phase out for 2028. So manufacturers have to change something and they realize it. And in order to achieve the targets, not only the car makers will be obliged to rethink their strategies, but also the European governments are forced by this package to act. And for example, in regard of the charging infrastructure at the moment, the Netherlands take the spot and followed by Norway and Sweden.

8:47But many other countries in Europe don't have enough charging points on the streets. I'm not talking about the private ones, but in the cities, it's not possible to travel across Europe and not be worried if you're able to charge your car. And another herd will be the uniform payment system. We don't have one at the moment. So this is something which the package also takes a point. And yeah, this was from my part and it is a huge challenge. And I would love to hear from you if you think we're able to reach this gold or if they are not far enough. So yeah, I'd love to discuss it with you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Patea, for doing this introduction. And we already can see some people are interested to speak. One thing I also find quite interesting is actually looking at this, because I think we also spoke about this quickly last week in the podcast, Patea Insiders was, on one hand, I think it's very exciting.

10:14I think it's very encouraging that I think some big steps are taking from a perspective of, I think the reason why we're all doing all of this is climate change. Right. So I think that the motivation to say, how can we reduce emissions? I think it's a really important one. And of course, it's also through the Paris Agreement. There's an agreement found, as you have mentioned, and now it's really about how it can be implemented, especially in all the individual countries. European Union is one of the bigger players there. What I found quite interesting, actually, one, as you mentioned, I think that quite a few companies haven't been really prepared, which I can imagine to some level. On the other hand, it's also kind of surprising me always to think about that nobody seems to, I mean, I think it's quite obvious that this will be coming. So that's just one thing, especially if you look at the Paris Agreement, right? I mean, I think companies could have done the math and just kind of think of what does this actually mean.

11:09And of course, transport is a big emitter, so the reduction there is quite key. Another thing I just found interesting looking at this report in the LS55 package is this infrastructure that you mentioned, because in there it mentions that they require member states to expand charging capacity in line with zero emission car sales, and to install charging and fueling points at regular intervals on major highways. And here it says every 60 kilometers for electric charging and every 150 kilometers for hydrogen refueling. And I think this is quite interesting based on causations we had so far, right? I mean, I think it's quite obvious that individual like personal transport, you know, I think we cannot see this right now going into hydrogen in Europe at least. And I mean, just from the efficiency standpoint, right? Like to be three times less efficient compared to battery powered, you know, cars that is like three times less efficient if you go from renewable energies to electricity, you use again electric when you're a hydrogen vehicle.

12:11So I'm just kind of curious what this does actually mean. I guess it's kind of in line with zero, you know, car emission sales. I wonder if this is kind of connected to how, if these kind of 150 kilometers refueling stations are connected to how many hydrogen cars are sold. And if you look at the numbers, they're very, very tiny. So that maybe requires not many to be built. But I just found this fascinating because I was just thinking, what would this mean to actually build an infrastructure like this if there's not a demand for it? And yeah, so this is just my thinking. I was wondering, Panthea, if you have any thoughts on this? And then also maybe Milo's who joined us on stage. Well, I think the problem is chicken or the egg. Do you need an infrastructure and then to sell more cars or do you need to sell more cars and then build the infrastructure? And after all these studies I've read and reports, I think we need the infrastructure.

13:12Because at the moment, I'm a little bit concerned and afraid that the numbers can speak just for Germany. Just now a few numbers of Europe. The numbers of electric vehicles are climbing. They're rising and rising. And they doubled and tripled during the last month, even through Corona. And now we're facing the problem. We have the cars, but we don't have the infrastructure. And I think the governments have to act now. And actually it is way too late. But they have to put so much more effort in it to build an infrastructure in Europe. And I don't care if the European Commission has to pay countries like Poland a bunch of money that they go from coal power to electric power or solar power. But we have to act now if we want to save the planet and if we want to change something. So I hope I answered your question. Thanks, Pater. Yeah. And that's, of course, also something listed in this package to the energy production and use accounts for 75% of EU emissions.

14:42It's like starting to transition to green energy system is crucial. Right. And it's, you know, the energy directive will set an increased target to produce 40% of our energy from renewable sources by 2030. Right. So that's definitely kind of part of it. But I'm with you. I think it's the chicken egg. I think it's only a chicken egg if you do it after each other. Right. And I think the important thing is to do it all at the same time in a way and always align it in a way. And I was wondering maybe one last question for you, Pater, and then I would like to go to Milo's and Nima as well. Do you know anything about charging behavior? Right. Because I think there's different ways of charging. Right. Like one is infrastructure, you know, where you're like, you know, next to highways, et cetera. But then, of course, you also have home charging. You have charging at work, all these kind of things.

15:24And of course, it also differs, I think, by, you know, by country and regions and cities and countryside, et cetera. But I was just curious, you know, maybe some of you are thinking, because I think with your work, you probably also maybe look at these kind of things. Just curious. And you felt that. Well, yeah, at the moment we have different, for example, the people who have a wall box at their homes, they have problems to plug in on wall boxes in the city because they have a different, oh damn it. Simon, please help me. ! ! Even we do not have a wall box in front of our building. And I know it changes, but we have to act much sooner, quicker. So, yes. But the adapter is a big problem. I knew, for example, the Association for Electric Vehicles and also my association, we offer an adapter so that you can charge your car everywhere. But this can't be a goal. So that you have 10 different adapters in your car and wherever you are, you have to check which one you can use.

17:08So, at the end, we have to uniform it. And especially for whole Europe, not only for our country. Yeah, that's it. Thank you. Thank you, Panthea. And I think Nima probably raised his hand as well, if you want to start. Yeah, so thank you so far. So, question to the panel. In Fit455, the acceleration towards electric is absolutely clear. But for Germany, what are the incentive designed for the, let's call it the backup, the sort of tier two and tier three of the car industry, which are these thousands of medium and some of the larger scale part manufacturers. So, what is the plan for them? Well, for example, there are companies who... Nima? Oh, okay. Nima disappeared. No, therefore, there are companies who just produce one part of the car. And now they're facing really, really huge problems because they have to change the way of their manufacturing and also the employees. I mean, you have jobs who don't fit in this program because you have...

18:50You need to produce the parts, different parts for an electric vehicle. And the program says, yes, sure, we have to take care of the employees. We have to support the companies and the people. But I didn't find a real good way how they want to support these companies. So, I don't know, Simon, did you find a way? But as far as I read on paper, I didn't find a good conclusion how they want to do it. And I don't see it, honestly. Yeah, I'm not 100% sure if I exactly understood the question, but the way I see it is, it's about, you know, this kind of supplier companies is this what you're after, kind of like all this maintenance as well, all these kind of different things. Can I try to answer the question? Sure, Jonathan. What Mima was asking the question, basically, are supply value chain of the electrical vehicles, around the question around that, tier two, tier three suppliers of the electrical vehicles.

20:15Today's combustion engine cars, automakers are mostly assembly plants of the parts which somebody else is producing. Electrical vehicle is different vehicle. So, especially modern 2021 electrical vehicles is a different vehicle than combustion engine vehicles. So, we need to build a whole new supply value chain. So, existing supply value chain doesn't work because the existing parts are not the same parts like they are for the 2021 electrical vehicles. I know that many automakers are trying to take the combustion engine vehicles and put a battery and electrical motor to it, and they think that it's electrical vehicle. That's not electrical vehicle of 2021. So, 2021 electrical vehicle is built from the first principle, and in order to not occupy a lot of time, it's just different vehicle. So, thank you, all three for the answers. To be more precise, what I meant is, in 5455, how do we move the tier one, tier two, tier three part manufacturer of fossil or ICE cars, and what are the incentives for them to evolve?

21:48Because, obviously, the electric supply chain will use completely different parts. And, indeed, with Milosz's very good point here, you can see cars today like the Citroën EC4, which is effectively a Citroën C4. And they just, all the rest of the car is the same. It's just in the front that we see a battery pack and an engine. So, of course, compared to the ID series of Volkswagen, which is designed from scratch. So, as the German industry, second tier and third tier is quite a big part of the economy. My question was, what's the incentive that the government is pushing to them so that we don't get job losses, on the other hand? So, because usually these policies come with a bit of a hook and a bit of a carrot. So, back to Simon and Bantea. I mean, I can maybe just quickly jump in here. Controversial, then everyone else can jump in as well. I think it's very clear that, you know, I mean, if you want to stay relevant, if you want to have a business, then you have to move.

23:01I think at this point, there's not so much need anymore for giving, like, you know, I mean, I understand, like, you know, there's the carrot and the stick. I think at this point, it's very clear if you want to stay relevant and, like, you know, have a business, you have to move, right, into other things. Because if you think about that in 2035, there won't be any new, you know, electric vehicles, you know. I mean, also, no ICEs sold anymore in Europe. And, of course, you still may have some other ones in the world, et cetera. You know, I mean, it's going down, right, from your business perspective. You can think about, you know, renewable fuels, which also now talk about maritime and, you know, like synthetic fuels for maritime and aviation, et cetera. But I think it's very clear that, you know, there's, I mean, there's not really, like, so much incentive. And I think I'm with you, right? I mean, if you look at, you know, the packages they've done for coal, et cetera, you know, like, it's been very, quite generous, you could say, on some level.

23:48So I don't see any buyout discussion at this point. I think it's quite clear that there are going to be many new jobs, you know, coming up through all these industries. But I'm with you. I think there will be industries which just have to transform, to be honest. And I think, yeah, as usual, there are going to be winners and losers. And it's going to be, you know, important to make sure that upskilling and all these kind of things are really present, you know, and that companies can transform. But I think it's quite clear that this is, you know, something which will require just simply to adhere to, you know, the Paris Agreement and also all the applications of climate change. But this might be my perspective. I think my perspective is that. Yeah, you are right, by definition. Disruption is a creative destruction. So basically, we are destroying the old one and we are creating the new one. Who will be able to, the insiders, I mean, existing participants in the market, they have difficulties to change because they are designed.

24:57And for many years, culture and everything else was designed for the existing business. So usually outsiders, they are able to be disruptors. So if new disruptors are coming, they are employing the new employees and they are building the new supply value chain. Existing companies, they will have difficulties to survive. Most of them, even in the supply value chain, most of them, like 80% of them, they will die. So basically, but that's inevitable in the disruption market when all of them, the old ones are dying and the new ones are creating. And new business, new industry is even, it's not exchange one-to-one. It's a new business is bigger than the previous business, but it's new technologies. So we are going through disruption in the transportation. That's already clear because we are already kind of behind the tipping point on the S-curve. I totally agree with you, Milos and Simon. I also see many people losing their job, no matter if it's in my industry or in the automotive industry in general.

26:24And to come back to your question, Nima, the German government, I'm not quite sure if they will act properly. Because for many, many years, the car industry here in Germany has huge power. And every time when they said, oh, if you do this or that, the people will lose their job. And you can believe the German government did nothing. So, but with this package, they might, or I'm pretty sure they have to, just let it go. And if they say the people will lose their jobs, well, they will lose it. I mean, for example, an electric vehicle doesn't need so much service as fossil fuel. So, the garages will lose a lot of money. And believe me, I can say it right from the ground, my folks, they're doing nothing. Some of them realize we have to offer new services, we have to develop new ideas. But many of them say, well, we worked like this during the last 40, 50 years. So, we will go on.

27:47And I'm not quite sure if the German government will do something. Thank you. But let me jump in here about German government or the European Union. I think there are 12 countries that are subsidizing or bringing in 3 billion euros in this important project of common European interest to subsidize build-ups of battery fabrics and projects and research and development around that. And that was recently, I think, granted. And it's 52 or 50, more than 50 projects in the European Union that will be subsidized by this money. So, there is things going on in this direction. And they try to put investments on the new technology. Second point is that I think the car industry, you are right, in the past, they were very resistant and influencing the politics to dilute any stronger regulations here. But in the meantime, if you listen to Herbert Diess recently, if you listen to Mercedes, they are all on the route to fully electrify their fleet. In 2030, I think it's with Mercedes 32 or something.

29:11It's BMW. BMW will follow in the next 6 to 12 months. Be pretty sure. Thank you very much. And, yeah, I think it's fascinating, right, if you think about these conversations three years ago. So, they have looked very different. And I think it's moving quite quickly. Edwin, did you have a point as well? Yes. I wanted to comment on what you were telling about the German car manufacturers and what's their incentive. I agreed. I don't think there is a real incentive. But there's something else. That's not the Green Deal package of a couple of weeks ago. But if you look to the Euro 7 emission regulations, which go into effect by 2025, they basically already killed the combustion engine, in my opinion. Because the regulations are so stiff that only small cars with small engines can comply with these regulations. But that's only a small portion of the current engines that are sold. That's only a little bit. That's only a little bit. That's only a little bit.

30:51That I wanted to add. I wanted also to share some news because I had a discussion started with the charging infrastructure. And what you see is that there's a lot of, especially in Europe, there's a lot of happening around development of charging infrastructures. And if you look to the last month, you see three big announcements in this industry. I can name them. Green Flux, which is a provider of a large robing network. They have about 200,000 chargers on their network. It's being acquired by a German DKV. You might know them from the fuel carts. So they bought Green Flux. Ecotop, that's a manufacturer of charging points, is acquired today's Go by French B-Grant. And Allego, that's also a charge point operator, which is active in the Netherlands, Germany, in France and Belgium, especially in those countries. It's going via SPAC to the American stock market. And it's now valued at $3.14 billion. So you and that's a company, Alego, that started in the Netherlands in 2013.

32:43And you see, ages later, they are already valued at $3.14 billion. And I think if you really look, then you see that a lot of companies, especially oil majors, like Total, like Shell, like BP, and Enel in Italy, you see them investing heavily in charging infrastructure. And you also see that they invest way less than those oil majors. You see the OEMs. They also investing in charging infrastructure through, for example, IOMOTY. And in the end, yeah, the couple of years, you will see that a lot of those issues around, for example, payments, they are really getting solved because it is not that difficult to solve them. Because in the European Union especially, we already have one currency, the euro. So that's not so difficult to solve. I don't think that that will be a real problem. The real problem will be in certain European areas, like in Poland and Hungary, et cetera, where the charging infrastructure is still lagging. And we have to focus on those countries because they also have to abandon the sale of combustion engines by 2035.

34:29And that's only 14 years away. And that's nothing. And if you look at the transformation of the transportation towards electric. That I want to add. Thank you. Thank you very much, Edwin. Just looking by the order, maybe I think Dorothy actually jumped over you. So we'll go to you next, Basim and Srikant. Hi. Thank you, Simon, very much for inviting me up. Yes. If you see me drop off, that's because I'm out and my battery is going to die. Yeah. My question is more about battery recycling. I came across a news article the other day saying that I think Tesla or somebody is investing in a battery recycling startup who has managed to raise 700 mil for its recycling tech. Because all this talk about reducing emissions doesn't really touch on the circular economy part. As EV becomes more and more prevalent, so are the battery storage. But we will see more and more wastage piling up if we don't recycle and reuse the real earth that can be extracted from the battery.

36:10Yes. And my second question is how do you extract graphene from something? Because I am not from any scientific background. I heard you can extract graphene from some waste or some sort of wastage. That sounds really cool. And I'm wondering if it's the same graphene that can be used in graphene battery. And yes, final comment is about the charging infrastructure. Actually, there is one step behind this. In order to charge it, you have to have electricity first. In a lot of parts of the world, they don't even have electricity. So we need to give them cheap electricity first to enable this electrification system. Yes, this is me then speaking. I might disappear due to my battery is going to die. So battery tech really needs to be improved. Yes, I'm really keen on circular economy. Although much focus has been on decarbonization or net zero or 55% of emission reduction, I wonder how circular economy can fit nicely into this fight for saving the planet.

37:50By the way, I was in some antique jewelry shop now. They have some really nice Georgian jewelry that can spell as dearest or regard using genstone. My point is upcycling and reusing old stuff can be really environmental friendly. For instance, buying antique jewelry means that we are not extracting it off for more genstones, potentially polluting the environment or using non-ESG mining practice. So circular economy is really good. I really want to know how you can fit nicely in this talk against climate change. Yes, so this is me then speaking. My phone is going to die. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you very much, Dorothy. Let me quickly jump into this. So I think the one thing circular economy for later batteries is definitely a really interesting topic and a hot topic as well. There's something called the battery regulation proposal, which is from the European Union as well, including the battery passport and lots of regulations related to how much recycled, the collection number, like how many of the batteries have to be collected and recycled, second life reuse, et cetera, all kinds of things.

39:14So I think we should actually do a separate session on this one. This is also now a shameless plug to an event we're going to do on the 23rd of September with battery associates. We have quite a few people actually in the audience here and also in the panel are involved. So they'll be doing a battery day once a year on the 23rd of September. And we already have some, we're going to have a really interesting session related to these battery passport, which is really part of the, I mean, like one of the tools which is proposed for really enhancing circular economy related to batteries. And we actually with battery sources, we just did a project on this one also related to the German government. So there's some interesting updates we can provide as well. I think then just a quick other points for recycling. I think this was Redwood Materials with 700 million. They just announced of raised, we had a session on battery recycling in the past, although I'm not 100% sure if we actually recorded it at the time.

40:04So yeah, we might, I think Catherine and I, we actually spoke about having another one. If anybody in the audience feels like kind of hosting a battery recycling session in the future, please let Catherine and myself know. And then I think the third was for like, you know, like production, et cetera. And I think we already touched on this infrastructure, but this is quite important. And so I hope I address some of the points, even though she probably had, or Dorothy, maybe your phone. Oh, she's still there. So hopefully didn't die yet. Is anybody else who wants to add something? Otherwise we can go to last events we can't. Okay. If there isn't, we can also go to Basim next. Basim Basim Basimoum Yes. I just have two points. First point, I think that, or yeah, I saw now, and I think it's going more and more in the future, that companies are already started moving either. They kind of used what happened in Corona in 2020 to reduce the amount of engineers working in the combustion engine section.

41:06This I saw in more than one company, unfortunately. And they did it in different ways, either by layoff totally or by separating the company to a separate company for combustion engine. And then that's how they handle it later on. So that's something that's already going, taking place, that they are basically reducing the force and trying to migrate people who can migrate from combustion engine to electric vehicle and hybrids and plug and hybrid sections. And it's taking place a bit by a bit. So that's moving. And I also believe, as Milo said, that whoever will not be able to move, these companies will mainly die. But there is a lot of companies which are basically working on our technology pages, not really combustion or electric, like for ACUs and et cetera. So I think they will adapt most time. And the second point that I think that a lot of the companies and this also appeared in Mercedes last announcement is that they are always talking about like Europe, Europe, Europe.

42:05But you still have the rest of you still have Africa. You still have South America. You still have Asia or most of Asia. And you still have Russia as well. All of these countries, they did not or did not really put something concrete when it comes to combustion. So maybe they will rely a bit on having these markets to try to take the minimum share left of there. So maybe they will minimize the companies or combustion engine, reduce the development. But I think they will still work on it due to the other countries not really sticking to specific dates to ban the combustion engine. I'm just really quick. I think Nima also raised his hand. It's just one quick point. I just also, because I know there's some people here and you probably also have more insights here on automotive. But is it really that attractive for an automotive to develop different platforms at the same time, right? I mean, if you, especially if your market is kind of, you know, seem to be getting smaller and smaller for ICEs, is it like really attractive to both keep developing both platforms?

43:08Because I guess the markets where you can actually sell them effectively going to go down, right? So is it like something where you think they will just keep producing the existing models? Just, you know, try to sell them as long as they can? Or will they actually, and any further development time, right? Because we can hear now more and more companies announcing they're kind of stopping the further development of ICEs. So I'm not sure if, to me, they're just going to keep producing them or do you think they're actually going to, is it like feasible for an automotive, right? To develop two completely different platforms. One, batteries, which are also going to, you know, take quite a bit of investment. So just curious if you have any thoughts on this. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it's a tipping point where they will really understand that you cannot do it. But if they will still make feasible sense financially, I think they will do it.

43:49And I don't think that's something that they will just say, okay, done, we will not do it. And also, if you look to Mercedes, they didn't say we will stop in the whole world. If you look to their words and a lot of people were doing analysis like transport evolve. If you are aware of this YouTube channel, they talked about it as well. So they're not going to kill it all, but you will just reduce it until it's not feasible financially. Yeah, that's right. I think it was VW or Mercedes who said, okay, they will cut the combustion cars for Europe, but they will go on to build fossil fuel cars for China. So they want to keep this line alive. And I know from many, many startups in China who built electric vehicle cars, and I'm not quite sure if this is the right strategy the classic car makers are driving at the moment. I think it might be a disadvantage for them if they don't focus on electric vehicles or on other alternative energies.

44:57But I think what we're going to see a bit, and sorry for this example, it sounds a bit harsh, but we saw a similar sort of trend over the last 20 years around tobacco. If you look at the data, the current sale of tobacco now versus 20 years is higher. But 15 years ago, we all said the tobacco industry is going to be going to look at last and standing strategy, and it's a sunset strategy document should be coming out. Now, just shifting back, many developing countries might still have years to invest into their electrical infrastructure. And they would be looking, I guess, and I think some of these numbers are included in the general sort of Paris consumption number. So many of the developing countries are going to continue to grow predominantly with fossil or ice engines, but also open up some sort of whoever in their market can buy electric will do. But if you go to a government, and I'm not going to pick a country because people might take offense with one country or another.

46:18I wouldn't be surprised to see a Volkswagen or a Skoda line, which has been moved from Europe or from Spain, suddenly into developing countries which are just not ready from electrical infrastructure and their energy consumption to go straight to electric cars. Of course, hopefully, we will see some form of a price battle, which would make this more interesting. But indeed, back to Simon's question, I don't think we will see new euro standard engines beyond that, and those researches will be stopped. But maybe for the next 10 to 15 to 20 years, many developing economies are going to produce those. And that is not the end of the world, because if we switch the current clunkers that you would find in many countries where a car runs for 15, 17, 20 years, with a Euro 6 plus engine, you're already achieving a significant abatement. So like for like, if I can switch a European consumer to an electric consumer and switch an Iranian consumer or an Indian consumer with the latest sort of engine technology in Europe, I think we will have a path to Paris.

47:51Maybe it's not the most beautiful path, but it is a path. And then hopefully, that will be a transition and then they will switch to electric whenever. But remember, the room is fit for 55. We're not going to go back to all the shifting issues that Europe will show the way others will follow. Thank you for sharing, Neymar. Maybe let me quickly jump in. Maybe someone else has some thoughts as well. I mean, first of all, I find it quite interesting that example is tobacco, because I think that's always a, in some ways it's a negative example. But I mean, I think it's always interesting. I mean, there's some, you know, I see your point with saying there's other markets, right? If you look at tobacco, the markets really shifted also to Asia, et cetera, right? I mean, there's been quite some drops in Europe, et cetera, and the US. So, as far as I can see from the numbers, but maybe you have some more and more other ones.

48:40But I think, one thing I think to take into account is, right, if you think about, I mean, I think tobacco is also quite proven, right? That it's bad for health. And that it's bad, essentially, you can also save an economy, right? Because it's really something, especially if you have a public healthcare system, right? It's negative for the country. The thing with, you know, with emissions and like climate change is, right, it's something which is going to affect globally, right? There's no separation, let's say, right? I mean, there's one thing you can say, okay, you as an individual can harm yourself. But then I think there's the bigger question, like, you know, are you harming the planet? Which I think is, you know, where the idea also goes with responsibility of Paris Agreement and these kind of things. So, I think there is a difference there. And I think that's also just, if you think about this, right, I think China, well, I'm personally interested in also because to get some other thoughts on, so we have this now in Europe, right?

49:29But you can also see China has also been very progressive, right? Also moving a lot, especially on batteries and electrification of transport, et cetera. I think for me, the next question is what's going to happen in the US. So we can see there's a lot of movement happening, right? I mean, companies like GM and others, right, going electric, announcing going to go electric. So I think based on this one, I'm quite curious when they're going to be the Fit for 55 in the US happening and then China and all these places. Because, you know, just thinking about the Paris Agreement again, and something, of course, where this year is also quite important, this COP26, it's something which every country has to figure out, right? Every country has to figure out how can they reduce their emissions, right? How can they go carbon neutral, you know, by 2050? I mean, that's, you know, that's the goal. So I'm just curious to see how countries are going to do this if they don't go, if they keep ICEs, right?

50:16I think coal is a big other one, of course. That's like the electricity mix decarbonizing it. But I'm really curious to see how you can see that there will be ICEs in the long run. I really don't see it. I think all the synthetic fuels we can use are going to be, you know, if you use them for maritime and aviation, if there's no alternatives. So, yeah, I'm just curious what you're thinking is for the long-term strategy, how, for example, beyond 2035, 2050, how there will be ICEs. I'm just curious how you would see that. Yeah, but I mean, just as a comment here, as you can see from my flag, I'm now back home for vacation. So when I'm and I started looking at electric vehicles so much here and I see that it's way off. I mean, it's it's it needs a couple, maybe five, not five, maybe 10 years or something. You have no infrastructure. It's not ready. So it's so you still have these markets which will need to be used.

51:12How these countries will be will try to solve it. I'm really curious as well. I mean, I see that, OK, in the ages, for example, they started looking more into like solar and wind energy. Yes, they're looking more and more into this direction. Like taking out like coal and natural gas and focusing more into hydro and and solar and wind. Yes. But from vehicles, from automotive perspective, it's way far. So I'm not sure I don't have graphs like on a whole world, like how many cars are being sold, like in Europe and US and how many is being sold around the world, the rest of the countries. And then we will understand really how it will go. But I don't see it going really at any time soon from the infrastructure, at least. And that awareness and the price and everything. Well, I have to confess, for the planet and for us, I hope that Simon is right and that we will all act. But if I stay realistic, I agree with Nima and for countries like Iran and whatever.

52:22I will. I think they will continue driving, combustion cars because there is no infrastructure. There's so many internal politics, political problems. I don't think that they will change during the next 10 years. So I would love to be wrong. But honestly, I don't think it. And by the way, I think it's not about demonizing any economy and saying sort of they don't want to do it. But it's a question of affordability. Right. So, Edwin, indeed, unless we provide a quantum leap path, a sort of a technological faster path, which does not require a heavy electrical infrastructure, then many countries could not just jump on board by switching the consumer side. Maybe a couple of numbers. Maybe a couple of numbers. I mean, you're from the Netherlands. I'm also sitting in the Hague, by the way. So, you know, maybe we can have a beer outside one day. In India, the number of two wheelers, motorcycles with a really poor engine sold per year is 17.7 million, which is accidentally almost the population of the Netherlands.

53:51Right. So we had long conversation with with with the manufacturers saying, can't you just stop doing that in India? Yeah. And their answer was from the governments of India and the other stakeholders that we engaged in different seminars was for people who are slowly increasing their their their income. And moving out of the pattern of two dollars per day, which is extreme poverty into sort of three dollars per day and so on. The first access to personal mobility is a two wheeler. And you cannot go to those people and say, hey, you know what? We're not going to market those because, you know, you're going to be creating a mission. But what I was really excited was a number of Indian startups who said, yeah, but who says we cannot produce a very cheap and very good electric motorcycle? And there is a space for that in many of the cities in India. So, again, the grid in the middle is still the problem, how India will generate that electricity, tons of solar.

55:11Solar. So in a way, like one of the colleagues who was talking in India, you need a thousand flowers to bloom. And hopefully, you know, we could stop the sort of the path and say, as you the right group who wants to buy the first vehicle, they can go straight and buy a electric scooter. Sorry, scooter. Two wheeler. And by investing in those right ones. But if you're the government, it's still significantly cheaper to buy LNG and produce electricity with it. And then just think about providing electricity to the villages and cities who don't have enough, let alone start talking about advanced grids. So I think everybody needs to do their part. Our European work is to reduce fast enough to give them time to reduce a bit slower. But maybe just one quick thing for me to go. I think because you brought in perfect example, right? There's two wheelers. I think that's one of these things that makes so much sense to electrify.

56:17And we know quite a few companies in this space as well. And that's really exciting. And I think also maybe one quick thing is, I think that's one thing to mention, right? I think transport also changes. We have now this really small cars, like the vehicles also in China and elsewhere, like for $5,000. And I think actually batteries, this is kind of a way you can really reduce the cost of a vehicle, especially of the running cost. I think when we move away from like purchasing cost to running cost, actually there are some really great enablers to really reduce for the customer. So I think, you know, also energy access, you know, if you look at energy access, also a lot with solar and batteries and things like that. But I mean, from a cost perspective, you know, that's a really big opportunity. Adrian, Midian, did you have a point or second? Yeah, I think I tend to agree with Nima that for certain countries, we have to look to the electrification of the motor bike, but also the normal bike, the electric bike, and look to the rigs, yes, or, and other small vehicles, which you can easily electrify.

57:25And you don't need an advanced charging infrastructure for that. You can just plug it into a normal socket, those vehicles. But I want to comment on what I believe it was also Nima was saying that in Iran or in Egypt, we won't see electric vehicles any day soon, maybe on a limited scale in certain cities. But I totally agree on that. But what you probably will see is that the large OEMs like Volkswagen, they cannot produce any more cars with a combustion engine in Germany, for example, because they need those factories to build electric vehicles. Otherwise, we still have a problem in the transformation. But what you will see is that they will start joint ventures with local manufacturers in Iran, in Egypt, in other countries. You already see that nowadays, if you really look to where Volkswagen, for example, are produced, not necessarily under the brand name Volkswagen, but under many other names using the technology of Volkswagen, of all the manufacturers. I think that you will see a lot of new joint ventures.

59:09And over time, the original car manufacturers will step out of those joint ventures. They will start with the joint ventures and gradually they will reduce their stocks into the joint ventures to zero. Because if they won't do that, then I think they will have another problem. And that's the public debate we will have. If, for example, in 10 years from now, Volkswagen still says that the public still thinks that Volkswagen is still polluting the world by building combustion engine cars elsewhere than outside of Europe and America, then I think that that will still be a huge problem for them. So, in my opinion, they will start joint ventures. And gradually over time, they reduce the stocks. And in the end, the whole joint venture is of the other company. And they will use the technology that's developed, that's already developed nowadays in the Western world. That's my opinion. Yes, I'm Midan. I'm just I'm working with one of the automotive industry in India, basically in the UK.

1:00:32So so specifically in powertrain. So as we were discussing earlier, how the transformation from IC engines to to electrical vehicles can happen in an industry perspective. So we are kind of privileged to be the first batch of people moving in from powertrain to electric. So this is actually happening in the industry right now. And it's it's like upskilling people within the industry and getting new people from outside is happening already. And to to add on with Nima's point on two wheelers. Yeah. So it's all about how this this transition is being implemented. So about 455, I think the in my opinion, what we must think about is how we can reduce the emission and how faster we can reduce the emission to start implementing it. So the maximum emission that happens from the cities and what all are in India, what it's basically the scooter manufacturer, what Nima was talking about. So their plan is to implement the electric scooters aggressively with the infrastructure in the cities at first and then slowly moving into the outskirts.

1:02:10So cities when the users are more and that can significantly reduce the emission. And it is also safer for the company to implement in cities because the average Indian can afford scooters or cars for that matter in cities because the income is higher in cities and then slowly moving into other cities connecting between cities so that the main and that NHS or highways are connected with proper infrastructure and then slowly moving into the, you know, villages. villages. So I think that's my opinion, even in any part of the country to implement aggressively in cities and then slowly connecting the cities and then slowly moving into, you know, common villages. And may I add one thing? I will give you an example. I, it's an announcement of not even 24 hours old, but a total, the old oil major acquired the whole infrastructure in Singapore, the charging infrastructure with the aim to invest heavily in expanding that charging infrastructure. So you will see in certain Asian countries and I think Korea and Japan will be included that, that you will see also that, that they will have sufficient charging infrastructure.

1:03:45So they, they can also transform to electric driving. Thank you, Edwin for this breaking news. That's great to hear. And I think that's exciting. I think there's, there's a lot of really momentum right now and lots of acquisition. It's quite sometimes quite tricky actually to even keep track of it. But yeah, thanks for sharing this. If you have any other interesting ones you want to share, please do so. Just looking at the time. So we are just over an hour and it means we are less than half an hour before the end of the day session, which always means that tends to be the most like heated time where, you know, many people may realize that actually want to say something or ask something. So this is just an invitation to, you know, for everyone who's an audience right now to also maybe join us on stage. If you have any questions or any thoughts additions, you know, please do so because you have about 22 minutes left for today's session.

1:04:42And Srikant, did you want to go next? Yeah, I was waiting for my chance to talk. So basically, what I would like to point out is that we talked about various companies changing from IC engines to electric vehicles. And I mean, it's, it's companies can really adapt into this situation, what I feel is, and the thing about most important thing is the job losses, as many of you mentioned here. And the job losses, and it's not as if we are going to change it tomorrow. It's if we have a clear plan for the next 10 years. So it is very important for people to upskill their, their skills, basically. And, and many companies, I think it is also important for companies to invest in upskilling people in their own companies, as Midun was saying about, she transferred from the other IC to electrical power trains. So it is very important for the companies to really invest on it. And for example, one of the Tata Motors, it is one of the biggest companies who owns Jaguar.

1:05:49They are investing in my bachelor's university way back in India, and they're investing in teaching students for this, getting their skills up to level for what we need for electric vehicles. So what my question is basically, is it, is it worth, worthy to invest in this upskilling their, the current workers who are already working in the company, or is it good that because universities are giving lots of upskilling education in all the universities around the world in electric vehicles. So the new batch of students coming out for these kinds of jobs are well prepared for, to getting into this business. So, um, is, is, uh, is it worthy to, uh, just really just upskill people who are already working in the IC field and to just convert their career into, um, electric power trains or is it better to wait for students coming up from the, the newer batch of students coming from, from universities with the latest technology knowledge. So, um, if I can have a stab at this, uh, I'll, I'll try to be quick.

1:06:56I think, um, when, um, and, and reflecting on what, uh, Milo was telling us about disruption, um, when you have a disruption of the scale, it is not a light for light reskilling, right? So you, you have these thousands and thousands of people who are factory workers and are at the assembly line. We're not talking about bachelor students, but, uh, if you look at when people decide what education they want to do, those who would go, and do mechanical engineering can now be looking maybe at electrical engineering. Those who wanted to do research on finite elements would now be doing research on batteries and, and, and sort of more, uh, towards the sort of electrochemicals. So, um, from a sort of, um, entry in, because those sectors of course would be growing as, um, Edwin gave us sort of the numbers. Capital goes in and what, what comes after is of course jobs, right? And, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and innovation and research is needed.

1:07:55Um, so slowly you can see a shift in the pattern of where jobs would be created. And of course, sadly, uh, but that's, you know, harsh reality and that that's how humanity makes progress. Um, some sectors will just, um, stop. Um, so, so you have your three groups. You have the, the, the sort of blue collar labor, which, um, has to make cars, which are significantly simpler. So that's direct job loss. Then you have the, the, the, the corporate people, um, and the marketing people. Well, in the past, if I, if I had to buy, sell a BMW today, I'm still selling a BMW. It doesn't matter. Right. So, so that's the, we, we could, we could learn to, to sell different things and the whole design, um, work. I mean, there is so much work now into designing grids, right? It's, it's just, or optimizing grids analytics. Uh, there are thousands and thousands of types of new jobs opening up, uh, for the energy transition that we don't even have.

1:08:58We cannot even produce fast enough people who know enough to do these things. Uh, but there's also hope for reskilling. So a lot of people who were working in refineries, now nobody loves refineries anymore. They keep being sold. They keep being, uh, resized, turned to depots, fuel depots. Uh, well, guess what? The people who knew a lot about refinery would be the future employees of the huge electrolysis units who would be, um, producing hydrogen. And then moving that hydrogen is also a very, uh, is going to, to take skills. So, uh, you have to approach this with extreme optimism and the realism of disruption creates economic, um, leaps. And, uh, I'll cut it here because I'm sure others have, have views. Yes, uh, since you mentioned me and also I, for certain time, I would like to streamline, streamline our discussion because, like, I feel we, we go, we go all over, you know, the space and we can discuss like that for, for a whole day.

1:10:03So, and we have only 10 minutes. So, uh, um, these, uh, these disruption, uh, like you said, it's not, if I will limit myself only to transportation disruption to only to electrical vehicles, uh, which they are disrupting the, uh, other vehicles, combustion engine vehicles. It's not disruption which was ordered by the central government or it's not disruption which was launched by the, some environmentalist. It's nothing like the, uh, like the tobacco because we wanted to ban the tobacco, uh, from the use. So, uh, this disruption is technology disruption. It's driven by the technology. So, one technology, uh, new technology which is replacing the old technology. And, uh, this disruption is the huge because transportation is one of the key sectors of the economy. So, I'm not talking about energy disruption because, uh, I can talk a lot about that. I'm talking only about transportation. So, this disruption is driven by the technology. So, it's inevitable that it will happen because we are already behind the tipping point.

1:11:18So, now the question is only how fast it will happen. How, how we can speed up the process of the, uh, of the disruption. Creative destruction, disruption. Means that, uh, the, uh, our government, governments about all the countries can speculate and can, uh, implement the policies which we can, uh, they can speed up the, uh, disruption or slow down the disruptions. In one, environmentalism, environmental organizations can speed up the process or slow down the process. So, and this disruption will not happen in 10 years because it's impossible. We are in the, uh, we are in the battery, uh, revolution room. So, the, um, key, uh, key, uh, technology for this disruption is the battery. So, because of the battery, battery, we have the limitation of the battery, how fast that this disruption will, uh, can happen. So, uh, what, my question to Panthea is the, uh, what do you think? I mean, maybe, uh, comment because maybe you don't know to answer me this question.

1:12:28So, I am saying that the, we need to, uh, uh, to replace 100 million vehicles per year of production, combustion engine vehicles with, uh, with, um, um, electrical vehicles. So, we, we are not gonna be able to do it even up to 2030, the new vehicles. But then we also need to, uh, replace 2 billion vehicles with, uh, electrical vehicles, which, which is a fleet of the vehicles. So, it's monumental task, uh, and we need to think how fast we can, uh, we can, um, uh, we can do disruption. But my question to Panthea is, uh, knowing your field of whatever you are doing, how many of the German, um, German, uh, established automakers will be able to survive? Oh, wow. That's a hard question. Um, to be honest, I don't think that all of them will do because there are too many startups. Um, I don't remember the number, but I looked up how many startups for electric vehicles, um, we have in the world.

1:13:46And there are so many. And they are really, um, yeah, making such a progress, um, like startups normally do. So the, the, um, big companies, they can't be so flexible and, um, act so soon. And they have different, a different focus than a startup. So, um, I think, yeah, I don't want to mention any names, but, um, I think half of them will do. And others, um, have to go different ways or, um, start anew. And, um, to, I hope this helps you, Miloš. Um, I'm really not sure. Um, but I think they have to cooperate with more startups because they think different. They act much sooner and they're way more flexible than, uh, for example, a Mercedes is. I am not so optimistic. I think at least 80% will die. Only like 20% will survive. So, um, hey, I have to, I have to talk, uh, speak for my, for my company. So I have to be careful what I'm saying, but, uh, Srika, to come back to your question.

1:15:06Um, and then I, uh, I'll make it short so that Mariano and Aurelia can answer too. Um, for example, the, the mechanics are now educator. I mean, they know how to, for example, repair, uh, an electric vehicle, but now they started really to, to put way more, uh, money and effort in, um, educating, um, the, let's say the, um, little workers. I'm not really concerned about the academics. They will find a new field. They will find a new way. But, um, those who, uh, didn't go to university. I think they will have a problem. And, and if they won't find, um, an alternative now, um, they will have problems in, uh, 10 years, but the companies are doing, um, trying to educate them. Um, and also the car sellers, um, have to visit workshops, um, and learn what's the difference between an electric vehicle and a combustion engine car. Thank you. Thank you. Mariano, would you like to go next? Okay. Thank you, Simon. Uh, that's nice that we are speaking and, and Panthea also are speaking with, uh, Europe and OEMs because I was working a lot of years in one OEM in Seat, in Volkswagen.

1:16:38And I can say to you, uh, not that many years ago, but there is a very, very threat, a challenge for them or us, because we see that technology companies, Google, Apple, Samsung, Xiaomi are coming to the room. What normally, uh, have the OEMs and also the companies like Electrify, like Iberdrola, Enel and other companies related also wants to come in the same room. And also oil and gas companies. Now, nowadays they, they shift total, Repsol, ESO, they shift also to Electrify. And we see the sector very, very, a huge threat, no, as, as I don't see that, uh, but first of all, there's a threat. It depends how quick go the OEMs to go for, for these new trends, technology companies. And, uh, it depends how, how quick it goes with, with, with these new trends. Uh, I think they would stay because, uh, we need to think about Mercedes-Benz. You can see in each country, it's not that easy to have nowadays a startup that can do the same as Mercedes-Benz.

1:17:51Because, uh, I say Mercedes-Benz because it's one of the OEMs, no? But I say it's not that easy to be globally. But on the other hand, every country nowadays could manufacture an EVs. Because, um, if we, if we speak about China, of course, about, we, we, Africa, of course, could, uh, have materials, uh, have, uh, have also universities there. They could, they could have the, the, the, they understand what, uh, EVs, uh, and they only need, it's a, a grid, a smart grid, uh, to have this in parallel with EVs plus, uh, the smart grid. And I think one of the key would be the, the, the, because we are here, when I am here, because I think the key is the battery field. Because if you want a smart grid, you need to have renewable energy plus, uh, batteries. You have the whole smart grids and you can give, uh, in a country that nowadays there are not that, uh, good, uh, grid. You can, with mass smart grids, you can effort, effort this, this, this chance to electrify and also manufacturing EVs.

1:19:01Thank you. Thank you very much. And, um, then, Aurelia, would you like to go next? Yeah, thank you everyone. And apologies, um, I joined a little late today. So I'm, um, apologies in advance if I'm repeating anything that's already been discussed. Um, but I just wanted to add, um, just coming from the investment side, there is a lot of pressure on, um, kind of asset management and investment managers to, to kind of allocate capital to renewable energy and ESG themes as well. Um, so I think, uh, what's, what's really important is to really consider kind of the, the broader picture and those energy, uh, networks and grids that are actually going to be able to, to facilitate the, the growth of, um, kind of the big rollout with all this new technology and innovation as well. Um, so companies such as kind of utilities, EON, um, and RWE that they're being kind of aligned with, within incentives, uh, from, from government. Um, and I was just wondering if, if anyone could also provide any further insight on kind of, on the German, um, incentive.

1:20:14How much is the government incentivizing these companies and, um, how is that balanced kind of across different, uh, continents is, um, can more be done than what's already been doing today? Um, thank you. Thank you really. Anybody want to, anybody add something on it? Maybe just one quick thing, right? I think through stability is a peak, you know, it's a big one, but I think setting targets and really helpful, as you said, right? Like an investment to, um, to kind of like, and I think providing stability in general, um, you know, through the government, et cetera. And through regulation is a big step, you know, into this direction, right? To say, okay, look, and we need these kind of percentage of renewable energy. That's like 40%, you know? Um, so this has to happen, right? And I think making clear the same with, you know, that all the, you know, the vehicles have to be non-polluting, you know? So we'll go battery powered here in this case.

1:21:13And then, um, you know, it means the demand is there. I think so giving this guaranteed demand is a very, you know, strong signal for the investment community support. So I think that's a really important step, um, which really helps, but maybe anybody else has any thoughts on this? I have some thought. The, usually that setting up the targets, uh, uh, by the politicians in the market, in the free market economy doesn't work. Uh, like, uh, uh, if some, if I hear somebody setting up the targets, 2035, not combustion engines, uh, those targets are useless. Why you would want to buy a horse, uh, uh, uh, when you can drive the car? So similar situation is going to be in the, because it's technology disruption. Why you would buy the, or why you would buy a flip phone if you can buy the smartphone? The similar things will be in the electrical vehicles because it's electrical vehicles are becoming also digital vehicles. And, uh, uh, digital vehicles.

1:22:20So basically in 2035, uh, I said before, we, uh, we will still have the huge monumental task, how to replace existing combustion engine cars. So I've played one, but nobody will want to buy any more, uh, combustion engine vehicles. This disruption will go very quickly. And, uh, the, on top of that, on top of the digital electrical vehicle, the self-driving vehicle, full self-driving vehicle, it's coming. And the full self-driving vehicle, according, according to Elon Musk, it's most probably the most valuable invention in the civilization. So, um, uh, uh, 2035, I believe we will have self-driving vehicle. So, uh, it's going to be only economical problem, or, or it's going to be only problem of the speed, how fast we can replace the fleet of the vehicle with the electrical vehicle. But, uh, but, uh, but, uh, you wouldn't buy an autonomous driving car because, uh, when you need one, you will have an app and, uh, and one of those robot taxi services, uh, uh, operated, uh, around the globe, uh, will send you one.

1:23:48And, uh, and, uh, so, you know, I'm, I'm not so sure. I am not so sure about that. I was thinking a lot about that. And I was thinking the several years ago, like you are thinking right now, but I'm changing my mind. The right now, you know, I'm saying that, uh, uh, transportation as a service, it will be big part of the economy. Yes, you are right. But I don't know how big. Okay. Well, uh, let's, let's have a discussion. Let's have a discussion about that. The normal time. Uh, Marius. Yeah. Thank you. And there, you also had a quick point. Um, yes, I'm not quite sure if I got a radio right because, um, I just, my connection cut off. So I just heard incentives and government in Germany. Um, if this was a question, I can, uh, confirm that, um, the German government, uh, supports, uh, alternative um, uh, uh, uh, let's say, uh, batteries and, um, alternative fuels. Um, for example, they just renewed, uh, the program for, to support, uh, people who want to buy electric vehicles or, uh, build wall boxes in front of their house.

1:25:05So this just quick, so that Kate also has a possibility to speak. Yeah. Thank, thank you very much. Yeah. That, that's the direction I was pointing to and just kind of thinking about the broader picture and the infrastructure that's going to be needed to facilitate the, the energy networks for, for electric vehicles. Thank you. And yeah, pass on to Kate. You're welcome. And, um, several other, uh, European governments also spending a lot of money and battery programs. So now it's finished. Kate, up to you. Hi. Thank you for inviting, uh, invitation. And I'm sorry, I'm, I was driving my combustion Toyota, of course. And I just want to add to, um, two more points. One is for the European pioneer car makers. Uh, one positive and one negative. The positive, uh, part is that, um, this company should have already, um, invest a lot of money and also the European, uh, Union. Uh, invest a lot of money in the second, uh, generation or even third generation, um, uh, electric vehicles, uh, technology.

1:26:20So that should be their, uh, advantage. But in the other hand, um, the negative part, not only for the EV, but also the whole market. Um, because, you know, uh, after the pandemic, the so-called new normal life, you know, the, uh, people, the, uh, work from home, um, the, the percentage will increase a lot. And then, which means the commuting, uh, demand for, for vehicles will, will, will reduce a little bit. So that's, that is a negative part. And the other point is that I just happened to have, uh, opportunity to work for, uh, work with, um, the South and East Asian countries, like, uh, Europe, uh, like Philippines and Indonesia. So, um, um, in the recent years, their electrification, um, progress is really fast. So, uh, and also their, um, threshold, I think that is called electric threshold. It's like a three wheeler or four wheeler, uh, electric cars, uh, maybe more close to motorcycle. The market increased very sharply, but just like, uh, uh, an expert just said, when you have more money, when you have start to have more money, the, the true show or, uh, uh, uh, electric motorcycle are a very, a very good, um, choice for them.

1:27:55So, um, so maybe in these, um, developing countries, their, uh, battery, um, demand increase a lot, but maybe not that kind of we thinking about in the European countries. Thank you. Thank you very much, Kate. And with this, we're pretty much perfect at half past. So that's means one of ours before I will give it to Catherine to close today's session. I want to say a big thank you for everyone to contribute to this exciting session. Um, one quick thing I also just want to say is, um, and also, first of all, big thank you to Panthea for being a conversation starter. It's always really helpful. If you're interested to do a future session, you know, we're always looking for more conversations, that has new topics. I mean, there's a few topics already I'm taking out of this session and I'm sure, you know, some of you have some other ideas as well. Be free to just contact Catherine and myself, either here on Clubhouse or on LinkedIn.

1:28:47Um, we can also follow the room battery evolution on the top left and all the speakers. Um, if you're interested to be reminded and notified when we have future sessions, um, just one quick thing. I also thought I add for the education part, because it was mentioned, um, that's something, you know, we, as battery associates tend to also be quite involved in. We have a program called the BatteryMBA, and I'm mentioning it because quite a few people actually in the audience and on the panel, I have been taking it or taking it right now. And we have a new one starting in September. So anybody interested in, and you can look into that on battery.mba. It's a, it's a lot of fun. And we have some really amazing people from companies like Ibarrola, which were mentioned from the tech assessment side to VPs from Northvolt and Johnson, Matthew and all these kind of fun, fun players. Um, flu and some utilities, et cetera. Um, and, um, yeah, so if you want to look into that, we also have a discount, which runs out today.

1:29:38That's what I'm also mentioning it to like discount, 150 years discount. You can look for that. Um, or you can also join later. That's no problem either. Um, yeah. And then I think we can also close, um, it up or one last thing. We've also mentioned because for events and be planning another battery day, which is quite a sizeable event. We did last year as well on the 23rd of September, this was a day, one day after Tesla battery day last year. And we're doing one again this year on the 23rd of September. And if you already want to be involved in that already, like, you know, pre-register yourself, you can go on battery day.info. Um, and then you can find some more information. It should be lots of fun. We're going to have panels on topics such as we discussed today on the battery passport, on training, upskilling, on diversity in the battery sector. And also have a bunch of really, really exciting companies all the way from mining supply chains to really innovative battery concepts, et cetera, being quite active there.

1:30:32So it should be lots of fun. So if you want to look for that, it's battery day.info. And it's going to happen on the 23rd of September. And with this, I will pass it on to Catherine to close the session. Maybe also give a teaser for what we have coming into weeks. Thank you so much, Simon. And then once again, really thank you to Panthea for, you know, your great sharing. I think this is one of the most active discussion sessions that we have ever had. So thank you so much for that. And kudos to everyone for joining us on stage as well. So as mentioned earlier, next week, we will not be having a session. And our next session will be on the week after, which will be about battery safety. So that's on the 14th of August. So thank you so much, everyone. And we look forward to, you know, having you back in two weeks time. And meanwhile, take care, everyone. Stay safe.

1:31:38Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.