Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - BatteryDAY

0:00Transcript

0:00Yeah, sounds great. That's what Simon said. It's crazy how it's been 35 weeks since we last met and started on Hub House. So thank you everyone for tuning in, for staying with us. It's a really great pleasure to have all of you guys staying with us week after week. And we really appreciate all of you guys and this community that we have. So yeah, before we kickstart this session, just a really quick reminder for everyone here that this session lasts for one and a half hours. And if you have any questions or thoughts, I think today will just be a discussion about battery data that's up and coming. So feel free to join us on stage at any one point in time. And this session is also recorded, so you can find it on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. So yeah, feel free to check that out. Yeah, without further ado, maybe I'll pass on to Simon and Bavia to kickstart the session. Thanks so much, Kathleen.

1:00And yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, it has been fantastic. 35 weeks. And yeah, it's kind of nice stories reflect on it, you know, on kind of, you know, all the topics already covered. And it's, yeah, I think it's a really nice resource, as you mentioned now, you know, looking at the podcast as well, you know, these recordings, all kinds of different topics. Yeah, if you're interested, you can look for Battery Revolution, Battery Insiders on podcasts and on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, et cetera, as you mentioned, Catherine. And today, you know, we thought maybe it would be fun to talk a bit about the upcoming Battery Day next week, Thursday. And we already had a bit of a chat two weeks ago about some of the battery news. And last week, we spoke about EA Mobility, you know, another big event. And Battery Day is kind of, maybe to put a bit of context to it. And it's really how we started with Battery Societies about a year ago.

1:51So we had a Battery Day on the 23rd of September last year, 2020. And this really was, you know, just a bunch of friends, et cetera, coming together, battery enthusiasts. And we really wanted to essentially summarize Tesla Battery Day because we realized, you know, there will be lots of interesting announcements. But it's probably going to be a bit tricky to put them into perspective. And we thought, you know, we could, one, kind of summarize them. And also maybe for kind of put them into perspective on what this could mean to the industry. And then also do a bit of a deep dive in a couple of different topics. And this has been really a fantastic opportunity last year. We had lots of people joining, I think a few hundred. And that's really how we met many people actually involved in Battery Associates today and all of the initiatives we're doing. And this year, we thought, OK, you know, let's do it again. And let's do it a really yearly event.

2:41And that's what's going to happen next week, Thursday on the 23rd of September. But let's do it a bit bigger. And on the one hand, we don't have a Tesla Battery Day one day before. As far as we know, maybe there's a last minute announcement. But, you know, we don't expect one to take place right now. And so what does this mean to us? So this means to us, actually, this time, we want to summarize the entire year. So it means we want to summarize not just the Tesla Battery Day, but we're also going to summarize the Volkswagen Power Day. We're also going to summarize the CATL Battery Day. Then advances in India and really all of these different announcements from, you know, companies, but then also some of the policy announcements, you know, be it in Europe, be it in the US, be it in China and other places. And as well, also, maybe what are some of the research highlights, you know, announcements from this year?

3:29So that's kind of how we're going to kick off the event. So they're going to be a nice timeline prepared by one of our fantastic ambassadors, Taha, and also Barath in the audience has also been doing some tremendous work on really summarizing all of these news. And so that's how we're going to kick it off. And then we're going to have two panels. So they're going to be a panel on sustainable batteries and the battery passport. And I'm excited to announce some of the speakers we can already confirm. So the speakers we can confirm today is one we have, Luis from Circulor with us, also a gold sponsor, and they do traceability for, you know, battery supply chains. It's a company which we're working quite closely with because I think they have a really exciting mission and, you know, have also some really good traction as well. So it's really exciting to see their growth and their development. And so they're going to talk about the traceability and supply chains, but we also have Tillman from SYSTEMIQ with us, who has been quite involved also in one of these previous sessions, actually, I think three weeks back or so, maybe three, four weeks back.

4:34And he also works a lot on the battery passport and different capacities, be it with the water can make foam, but also in different contexts. And he can share some light on some of the work they are doing. And then also just this morning, we could confirm Inza from Northvolt, which is really exciting. She also has been involved in some of these battery passport discussions. And her role with Northvolt is really looking at her title as an environmental development manager with Northvolt. And she really looks at a lot of these, you know, environmental compliance and how to really, you know, make it a fully sustainable company. And it's really fascinating, actually, to see some of the work they're doing. And I think she's going to mention some there as well. And then we actually might have one or two more guests, but it's still to be confirmed for this panel. So this is the first panel. Then we have a bit of a network session as well, which is one thing really important to us because we have already, I think, signed up some, I think, 20 countries or so from all kinds of different industries, you know, from research, but also from industry and policy.

5:38And we have fantastic people signed up already to participate. So it's a good chance to get to know each other. And we really want to enable a lot of time for that. And then we have another panel on the second panel that is on battery data. And that's going to be exciting as well and opportunities with battery data because we have three leading companies in this space. And it's going to be really fun to have them all. They have all their founders on one stage, which I haven't seen before. And it's fortunate that I've been able to work or like I know them all at this point. So we have Volitica Diagnostics with us, Claudius. We have them twice with us, either Stefan or Michael, either of the co-founders. And then we also have Tal from Voltaic with us. And that's going to be really exciting as well. So it's like three battery data companies who are, you know, in the space of really trying to accelerate battery innovation, but also, you know, lifetime predictions and second life and all kinds of different things through battery data.

6:36And they all have a bit of a different approach. And I think it's going to be exciting to have them all on one panel. And there might also be one or two more speakers we're adding on. But yeah, that's going to be, I think, really exciting because all of them have really interesting work they've been doing. They have interesting clients. And so that's going to be fun. And we have a bit of a deep dive on that. And related to deep dives, we also got a bunch of different deep dives afterwards. We have a deep dive on, for example, battery data. This cloud is from Volitica, but we also have a few other ones on ethical supply chains and things like that. And then we have a bit of a larger networking break, about an hour. And if you ever used Hopin before, the same we used last year, it's a really nice platform to kind of connect with each other. So it's like a chat roulette if you ever used it.

7:20So you have like random matching. But if you buy it, like if you get like a VIP ticket, you can also, you know, get like the VIP networking. So yeah, you get networks with other VIPs. Otherwise, you can also just network with every participant. And yeah, so that's going to be for an hour. By the way, if you want to check out the agenda, you can just go on batteryday.info right now while listening. Maybe some of you are on your computer. Batteryday.info. And then you click on the register. And then you click on the Hopin page. So you find the agenda there. And yeah, after this networking session, we have like the second part. So the, you know, the first part is maybe a bit more friendly for Asian time zones. And then Europe. And then the second one is a bit more friendly, maybe for US time zones. And Europe is still lucky. You know, right in the middle. And the second part is going to be the first panel going to be on solid-state batteries and materials innovation.

8:13And here we have already confirmed speakers. And we have Joran with us from Storedot. We got Amsrinath from Oliver Ryman with us. Pooja from UCL. We started researching there. And then we also have one more person from Polestar with us. And it's going to be quite an exciting session because we also had a white paper actually coming out. I think, yeah, this week. And it's something which we're probably going to talk in a future session. But the authors didn't have time today. If you go on, if you just go on battery.associates and look for white paper, then you find it there on solid-state. It had a few hundred downloads since we released it, I think, two days ago. And it's going to be a really nice session, you know, on talking about opportunities with solid-state, some of the challenges, different chemistries, you know, how to innovate in the space. And it's going to be a really nice session. And then the session afterwards is going to be on diversity and training in the battery space, which, of course, is something also very important to us.

9:12You know, how we can, you know, increase the diversity in the battery space. We have also a survey which is running right now if you're interested to participate. You can also win, I think, some voucher for the BatteryMBA in the programs we're doing. So if you go through Google for events, events, partners, or battery.associates, or you go on our battery.associates LinkedIn page, you find a survey there. And we have some really interesting work and some interesting insights, actually, to share from worldwide. What does battery talent care about? You know, what's the importance of training? What's the importance of diversity and things like that? And, yeah, this is going to be our final panel. And then we have one last thing, which is like a perspective and outlook for the coming year. And here we have James Smith with us, one of our former speakers also here on these sessions on Bloomberg Neff, doing an outlook, but also a couple of other ones going to be speaking there.

10:01So it's going to be really nice, I think, to kind of have a bit of a prediction of what we might expect for the coming year. Even though, yeah, we're probably going to be all wrong, I feel. It's like, it's so hard to predict. But I think it's at least, you know, it's good to have a good guess, I feel. And it's something that we can discuss. And hopefully also look at again next year, right? In the 23rd of September, 2022, where the next battery day is going to happen. And it's nice, I think, to have a bit of an outlook than we can see in a year if we were completely wrong, maybe we had some things right. Yeah, that's kind of from my side. I don't know, Catherine Bavriar, do you have any other thoughts or anything you would like to add? At this point, or any questions maybe as well? No particular questions, but just very excited to hear that, you know, the agenda covers a myriad of topics, many of which we've covered in the past, what is it, 35 weeks?

10:55So excited to see this come to fruition. Would love to hear if any of our followers have thoughts on those or, you know, think there are some other angles that could be incorporated. But I feel like it's super comprehensive, Simon, and I'm excited to join on Thursday. Thanks, Bavriar. And I think that's a very good point, right? I mean, for example, recycling is probably one of these topics. We might touch on it a bit on the first panel. But I'm just thinking, I mean, of course, it's a big topic as well. And, you know, if you have ideas, you know, who we should try to approach or like a deep dive or something you think we should try to get involved, you know, you want to hear from, let us know. And, you know, we're very open, you know, there's no guarantees, you know, to bring anyone on. But if you have any ideas or you want to, you're interested to host your own kind of deep dive, so deep dives are half an hour sessions.

11:46And please also let us know, right? We're very open. And this is a, you know, close community here on Battery Evolution. So we know you have many expertise and we have so much expertise in the room. So if any of you have any thoughts you want to add or any, you know, any kind of suggestions, please, please let us know. Thanks so much, Simon, for sharing that. You know, personally for me, what really excites me about this event is especially the timeline thing that we're doing. I think, you know, that's something that we don't see out there in the industry where there's a timeline that captures all the different updates it's been for the past. Yes, I'm really excited about that. Also, obviously, you know, the fact that we have built this community and with Battery Associates. And how it can attract all the speakers. I think it's an amazing job. And, you know, bring all the sponsors as well. So I really wanted to hear, you know, more some of the thoughts as to what do you think about it during the whole process of setting up Battery Day?

12:50And also, you know, what's inspiring you and what's keeping you going? It's kind of going to the purpose of Battery Day as well. So let's hear more about that. No, it's a good question. Thanks. I think for me, what I really, you know, I think the same thing behind these Clubhouse sessions. I think it's so important that we have, like, you know, these frank discussions and we really have, like, thought leaders coming together and we're kind of learning from each other. Because, you know, at the end of the day, I think we're all learning, you know, by talking to each other and kind of exchanging, you know, thoughts and opinions and insights and data. Of course, you know, I mean, even if I kind of think now, you know, what I learned in my PhD, right? I mean, you know, in the research before as well, you know, in Cambridge or Berkeley, et cetera, has been, of course, you know, really useful. And, you know, it's a really important, you know, base kind of of insights I gained.

13:42But I think, you know, it's just moving so fast. And I think it's so important to just stay up to date and kind of understanding, you know, just like learning from each other. And I think that's also one of the reasons, you know, why we started the BatteryMBA, right? You kind of have this kind of a platform there. But the same here on these Battery Evolution sessions, you know, to kind of learn from each other. Because, to be honest, lots of, you know, the discussions we had in the past here really inspired me to kind of have different sessions, either at the EA Mobility last week. Or, you know, I mean, of course, it's a back and forth, right? So I think that's really, really nice. From an organization standpoint, I think it's, I mean, it's always stressful. It's like to get everyone together. But I think it's getting better. So I think, of course, we're very lucky now that we have many people involved and many people are interested to help.

14:29So I think that's really, really fantastic. As you mentioned, you know, like even the timeline, there's no chance that I could do something like this by myself. So it's tremendous that people like Barrett, you know, here in the audience and others really help. Out of you, Catherine, and Bavia, that you both are also helping with some moderations there and things like that. I think it's really a team effort. And I think that's also one thing I really enjoy about these events, even though they're like a lot of, you know, honestly, a lot of work and a lot of stress, especially like getting all the sponsors confirmed and get everyone, you know, to speak. But on the other hand, what I really like about it is you have like a common goal and everyone is kind of coming together and you have like a very clear timeline to it, you know, because it's very clear. It's going to be very stressful now to next Thursday, but then we can also celebrate afterwards.

15:15And we kind of achieved something together and we can, I think, be very proud of it. So I like this kind of, you know, very clear timeline projects where you kind of, you know, you know, this is the date. And it's going to be done afterwards and you then have a year to think about the next one to relax a bit. So, yeah, I think that's on a personal level, which I quite enjoy. And also one thing, although, I mean, that's maybe just one insight, maybe, you know, I think people know me. That's, I really want to create as gender balance panels and a gender balance event as possible. And it can be more challenging, right, at times. I mean, now, you know, I think if you look back at the BatteryMBA, right, I think we were kind of, was told that it's going to be almost impossible to get anywhere above 25% female participants. And now we are pretty much consistent around 40 to 50%.

16:05For lecturers also now we've got 50% female lecturers in this current cohort. And so I think, you know, that's, that's been developed really nicely, but it has been, has been some effort. But now it gets easier and easier because people really know, you know, that that's what we're doing. The same here was the battery day, right? I think sometimes, for example, I mentioned we have now these three amazing, you know, companies, battery data companies on the panel, but they're all male founders. So now, you know, I'm kind of looking for some amazing female speakers we can add on, you know, and it's, it can be a bit of a surge sometimes. But I think my thinking always about this, it's not so much about the effort you put in, but the end result. So it might be a bit of more work, you know, sometimes to, to find these amazing female speakers, but I know they're all out there. And so we just have to, you know, to find them and then it's going to work.

16:50And I think from our, you know, track record so far, I think it's going to be good. And I already know now, and when you bring everyone kind of on the same platform and you, you know, ask amazing other female speakers or like experts, they will, they always know some other ones. So I think it's all doable, but it can be a bit of a challenge. I think sometimes to make it happen, but it's all worth it, my opinion, in the end of it. So, I mean, that's just a bit of a bit of an experience there. Yeah. Thanks so much for that. I really liked, you know, what you were saying earlier about breathing a platform for everyone to share their thoughts, you know, the honest opinions about topic, these topics. And I think we are really doing that. So, so that's great. And I think Battery Day will should and will reflect that as well. So I'm really looking forward to that. We have Bharath on stage.

17:39Bharath, I've invited you to join us on stage. Since you know, you've been doing so much on Battery Day, I really love to hear your thoughts and your take on, on, on building this together with Simon. Yeah. Bharath, I think you're muted again. Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me. Actually, it's a very pleasant and also a wonderful opportunity for us. Our idea is to create a very knowledgeable event where everybody can get some free data because, you know, getting this kind of quality data is quite hard these days because this battery industry is very diverse. And also it's not just one industry, you know, it's not just battery industry. It joins with mobility industry. It joins with electric industry. It joins with energy storage industry. So even creating the timeline itself is a very big task. We are just discussing one month how to make this timeline possible. So thank you so much for the Simon and Mariano and other cool people like Amandine helped me to create this timeline.

18:40So our idea is to create this ecosystem, very inclusive ecosystem that everybody should get access to quality content around the globe. Because, you know, for example, people from India or people like me who are in some other underdeveloped or developing countries, they face a lot of problems in getting access to the quality paper. So, sorry, quality information. So I think this battery day will be a very good event for them, especially this white paper. I'm very much impressed by the white paper response because I'm the website, you know, usually I used to manage the website. Each and every second, I hope, every minute I will get one notification downloading the white papers. It's a white paper on the solid-state. So this gives very deep insights about various solid-state chemistries, commercial scalability and industrialization concepts. So this open science and this open innovation is promoted by this Battery Associates. I really like this vision and mission by Simon. So that's why we are working day and night.

19:44I hope everybody will get benefit out of this battery day. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Thank you, Barathe. Yeah. I mean, as you said, it's very much a team effort. And what you say, I think it's right as well. But I think there was this discussion on the thought about, you know, I mean, I just attended a few events, you know, which are also quite high price, et cetera. And it's, you know, I think there's two approaches, right, where you can also have ticket prices, et cetera. And we still have some, right, like VIP tickets for, you know, networkings, VIP networking, et cetera. But essentially everything of the event is for free. So, you know, the free ticket covers everything. It's just if you want to get the recording so you can get a premium ticket or if you want to get VIP networking. But essentially the event is free. And that's really possible because we also have lots of sponsors now. And it's something I'm really also, you know, excited about that actually now quite a few companies actually jumping on, you know, and you also want to support us on making this information available for everyone.

20:39Because as you said, I think there's so – the momentum just in the possibilities, you know, in a lot of countries around the world, you know, I think that there's so much growth potential and there's so much importance as well if you think from a climate change perspective and from a pollution perspective to really accelerate the transition, you know, to sustainable energies but also clean transportation. So, yeah, so I think I'm just very excited to kind of open up all this information. And, I mean, just thinking about what actually happened last year, you know, Barrett, you were actually on this panel. Barrett, you both actually – you were both on it. Yep. That's literally how we met Barrett, right? You were speaking on Battery Day last year and that's how we met, you know, and then you went afterwards and became involved. And Barrett, we know each other a bit before as well. But I think that's also kind of really started us working more closely as well back then.

21:30And so even just from that perspective, right, it has been a tremendous success last year just to kind of meet each other. So based on this one, I cannot wait what's going to come out of this one. Like if there's, you know, any chance we're going to, you know, get even more people to kind of get to know us, you know, maybe, you know, work with us on any of the projects we're doing. So, yeah, that's maybe just my kind of personal thinking. So much has happened thanks to last year's event. I'm very excited what might be coming from this one. I just want to tell the story, actually, like we met on this Battery Day. I just want to tell the story because it's very inspiring for many people and for me as well. Because when I was sleeping in my bed, I suddenly got a text that you are just invited to a panel to talk in this industry academy research forum. So I said, what?

22:17Me? Then, OK, let's go and talk. So I went to the panel and then I discussed about what are the problems that we are facing in the industry academy interaction, what are the shortcomings we have in India and also a global perspective, how these things happening in Europe, America, India and Philippines. Because I do have friends across the globe because we always talk about this. So after that, I just met Simon and very good things happen. And to be more frankly, seeing this a community based company, here we have community where people come and learn from us. Many corporates, even we have professors from reported institutions who are coming and working for us. And we have quality experts and consultants from various companies who are coming and working with battery associates. I just want to say the support environment, we have supporters across the globe. Those people are getting exposure from this Battery Associates environment and they are getting placed in this battery ecosystem. You know, in India, it's very impossible to get a job in this lithium-ion industry because there is no such course available in the university.

23:18No one knows what is this technology. But it's only because of this, you know, Battery Associates community in our, in my, I also mentor students. They got placed in battery industry to be, especially in the lithium-ion industry. Thank you so much for this effort, Simon. So without Battery Associates, this ecosystem is not possible in my area. Yeah. I mean, it just goes, it just goes right back to you. Just as a big thank you for, for, you know, for making it all happen, to be honest. You know, I think you have been a tremendous part of, you know, of the last year's success. So, you know, I just want to say a big thank you to you, to, to all the, all the important that you're doing. I think, as you say, you know, it's, it's so inspiring also to see how you bring it, you know, how you're growing it in India, you know, and getting, as you say, you know, getting a lot more people involved.

24:02And, you know, yeah, just want to say a big thank you to you as well. I'm really excited for what we're going to hopefully talk about in a year's time. And maybe just one quick thing before we maybe want to go to Gary is because I also thought maybe we can do a bit of a, you know, after battery day ends, it's going to be 9 p.m. CET. It's going to be very late for you, Catherine. Hopefully you're going to be sleeping for a long time already. Because it's probably like 2 a.m. A year or something crazy or three. But I mean, anybody here who's, we could also think about having a bit for like an after hour on Clubhouse. It's maybe Bavia, you're still awake, I guess, for you, it's still lunchtime or something. It's just something I wanted to bring up as well. You know, if people are interested, we could also have a bit of a, because people ask me, should we have like a party or something?

24:45Like, you know, after battery day. And I'm not sure how much energy I have, but I think I would be happy to have a bit of an after hour, just like chatting about what are our highlights on the day. So we could also maybe consider to do something like that if people are interested. Just an idea. Cool. But maybe we can go to Gary, because he joined us. Hi. Good morning. Good afternoon. I just wanted to point out, I was visiting the website and then trying to connect with the Twitter in order to somehow promote the event on my Twitter. But it looks like the Twitter is inactive. And there's not many ways to otherwise sort of promote the event on your behalf. So I'm just wondering if you could just maybe indicate whether or not I've missed something or whether or not, if that's not the case, perhaps tweet something out and I can retweet that for you. Much appreciated, Gary. I just sent you the link.

25:56So batteryday.info should be the website. But I agree, on this website, there's nothing really on there. But if you click on register on this website, then it sends you to the Hopin page, which is like the event page where people can register for free. So there's also a schedule, some of the speakers, some of the sponsors, but there's still a lot of speakers we're actually going to add on probably this weekend and on Monday. Or like even maybe until the event starts, because there's still a few people we just have to get the approval from from the companies. So can you access that one? Have you been able to click on this? Yeah, no, I've already been on that website. That's the reason why I was saying that the Twitter that's listed on the website doesn't seem to be active and doesn't seem to be promoting anything. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, like our Twitter is really bad, like the battery network one before we have to get better.

26:50But what I will do is it's a good point. I will now do a tweet on my personal Twitter. And if you're interested and you want to share this, it'll be amazing. It'll be awesome. You know, it's a fantastic event. And as you mentioned, it is at no charge. So I think it's an opportunity for a lot of people to get immersed into the topic very easily and very accessible manner. So any way that I can help promote this, I would love to do that. So, yes, I'll definitely retweet what you tweet out. Much appreciated. I'm just writing a tweet, so I will be quiet. Cool. Much appreciated. And if anyone wants to share, you can then go on my profile and you find the Twitter there, the Twitter handle, and then you can share. I like this idea. And also will be the first tweet about it. Well, on this topic, Simon, you know, since you're building a tweet right now, why not tell you, maybe we should go around the table, just tell us one thing that why we should sign up for a better day.

28:04And where we shouldn't miss it. Cool. Let's do a pitch. I mean, I think Gary summarized it really well. I think it's a very unique chance to get like a nice overview as well as a deep dive in the most relevant Barry topics by like, you know, really key experts from companies such as Northworld, Polestar, you know, Sokola, Voltaic, twice, political diagnostics. But also kind of, you know, bunch of more experts from all around the world, really. And it's going to be free. So I think there's no harm to sign up. Even if you cannot just attempt, if you just have time for an hour, you know, you can just attend one thing. You know, I think it's still worth it. So if you enjoy battery, you know, our battery revolution clubhouse is going to be like the extended version. So you get like, you know, lots of these topics in one single day. And it's going to be this video as well. You know, if you, if you're a bit of a, if you'd like to see some, you know, some, some people, um, and some of the, some of the slides, et cetera, you know, it's a good chance.

29:04But maybe Catherine and Bavia, maybe each of you can also, maybe each of us can try to do a good pitch because I feel you might have a better one. Uh, yeah, happy to do the pitch. I, uh, Simon, you mentioned we met last year and, um, at the time when I think when we first talked, I, I spoke about the fact that, oh, like, you know, I've limited battery background and this and that. And what, you know, all these reasons that I might not know things, but I did all along. And I feel like working in this space with you guys has been an opportunity for me to lean into what I already know. And of course, grow more and learn more, um, not only from all of you on the panel, but, or, uh, these, all of you moderators, but of course the people who join our conversations as well, both, uh, listeners and guest speakers. So, you know, I don't know for those of you who, um, I haven't had a chance to talk to or who, like with whom I haven't connected.

30:04My background is actually international politics and development. Um, really thought I was going to work in policy or the foreign service, uh, totally a different path at least. And then when I ended up working in energy and tech and then doing research, um, you know, I learned a lot on the go. And, um, in fact, I just started a graduate school program now focused on energy. So maybe the, it feels a little bit like which came first, chicken or the egg, like you would think someone may have that academic background first before jumping in. But my personal, like, and professional experiences led me into batteries. And I think, um, into organizations like battery associates. So definitely spread the word about it. You don't know who's curious about it. And joining one day on a hop in may lead them to, uh, engage more deeply and, um, you know, become more curious about batteries and energy and sustainability. And that's just one more win for our side, regardless of like all the other detail and details and nitty gritty things that we discuss here.

31:03We just want more people part of the conversation. And I think that is why we should be circulating the word about our event on Thursday. Okay. Great. Thanks so much for that, Bhavya. What about you, Barath? What is it for you that, you know, you think everyone should join? The one thing that everyone should join? Yeah, of course. Actually, this battery day will give you a complete idea about what are the, what are the things which happened in the past? And also we are going to cover the future. What is the prediction is going to have in future? What are the things is going to happen in the near future? So if you, if you are interested about what is going to happen in the battery industry and the mobility industry, and also in the electric, electrical storage industry, please register with us. Definitely. We'll get an extremely good insights, how to develop your product or how to strategize your business or how to leverage the technologies and something like that.

32:00Because many people are talking about investment these days. Many of them investment are happening in Europe and America, but still a lot more investments are happening in the South Asian countries like India, Philippines, China, Japan. Still, there are a lot of new innovations and investments should happen. I think those people should definitely come to these kinds of events and they will get more insights about this upcoming battery innovations and battery technology. Absolutely. Thanks so much for that, Baris. Yes, I absolutely agree with what you're saying. And I think that's the same thing for my pitch as well, which is, you know, battery day is basically a very condensed version of all the updated information that's out there in the industry for this year. And also for, you know, ongoing future predictions as well. We'll be talking to really thought leaders when this space may be hearing firsthand from them as to what they think the future will be like in their industry. So it's very exciting, you know, outlook for everyone as well.

33:03So, yeah, feel free to sign up and ask Simon or myself or Bobby and Baris any questions that you have. And Simon has just sent out the tweet. So, you know, if you check Simon's profile out, you can also follow him on that. And please would be great. You can help share the news as well. So I think I hope we have, you know, shared enough about battery day. And if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us. Now, I just really like to open up to the floor to discuss, you know, anything you have thoughts about battery day, questions about battery day. Or, you know, just thoughts in general about this week. Like what's most interesting news for you this week on batteries. And, yep, feel free to raise your hand. And I see Bami right now. He doesn't let you up on stage. Hi. Hi. Hi, Bami. Thanks for joining us. My name is Bami. I'm from Thailand. I heard that you are talking about the laboratory for developing the battery.

34:11I'm searching for my PhD position. Do you have any suggestion for me on battery? Oh, I feel like maybe the PhDs in this room should take that question. I think this event, which also have a panel on education training. I think people from Density is participating. I'm not sure, Simon. Simon, I think you are the right guy to tell that. Density is the first PhD consortium in Europe. They are providing a lot of PhD sponsorship and scholarship for the upcoming PhD students. I think that talk will give you a lot of insights on how to apply for a sponsored PhD in Europe. Thank you, Alimash. It's a very good point. I could just quickly add. If you're interested in your PhDs, Density is a pretty good program. As you said, Barith, it's a very generous funded program as well. We can do it anywhere in Europe. We invited them. I had some good conversation with them in the past. We invited them to join our panel.

35:18I think they haven't confirmed at this point. They're going to be an interesting session on careers and batteries. If you probably want to join that on Battery Day, it could be fun. Thank you for your all information. Of course. Thank you. They can't? Would you like to share something? Yeah. Good afternoon, everyone. So, the Battery Day. I also joined Battery Associates last time. The Battery Day happened after Tesla's Battery Day. It was really nice for the past year. But, unfortunately for me, I could not really participate in many of the things in the last few months because of my job. But, yeah. I look forward to this Battery Day this time around. And it's really nice to see how Battery Associates has grown in the last one year. Within one year itself, you have lots of people. And you have grown in every way possible. So, it's nice to see so many projects happening for Battery Associates. And, yeah. I also would like to contribute something in the future.

36:45Once the job pressure is a little bit low than before. So, yeah. So, it's good to see that. And they're waiting for the Battery Day. Thank you, Srikanth. Yeah. And it's actually true. That's also how we met as well. And you joined us as a community manager pretty much shortly afterwards together as Barath. And you actually, you two were our, no, actually you joined us both as our two first ambassadors. You, Barath and Srikanth. I remember this now. And this was actually how the ambassadorship started because of both of you contacting me and said you would like to be involved. And that's how we kind of came up with this idea. So, I wanted to be a big shout out to two of you because now you have been kind of the trailblazers over now. I think we're now over 45 ambassadors. Catherine is also one. You know, and we have now ambassadors, I think, in 27 countries or something like that. And 45 of them.

37:32And, you know, there's still a lot of growth probably coming in the coming years. But, yeah. Big shout out to two of you to actually open up this kind of idea and really starting it. And maybe one thing, you know, because Srikanth, I know you're very busy. And that's a good sign because you work in a very exciting company as well on the battery data. But actually, I want to say, you know, the battery data panel now, we just got also confirmed for Taik to join as well as Tao, who I worked with in the past as well. And now we actually got three of the leading battery data companies. So, let's see. Maybe we can also convince your company to join as well and your founder, you know, for your company. Because it's going to be, I think it's a very rare opportunity to get all of these startups and all of these battery data companies on one panel. So, if you're interested in this kind of topic, you want to essentially see, you know, some of the leading companies all on the same panel and answer questions, you know, why are they the best?

38:24As well, it's going to be, I think, going to be great fun. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. I think the last, as we talked on the LinkedIn, last few weeks have been really busy for our CEO, I guess, because of the new funding stuff and things. And he's in lots and lots of meetings and interviews every day, morning to evening. And that's why maybe he's a little bit busy right now. But let me see. Anyway, I'm going to office next week and I will talk to him. Let me see if I get hold of him, first of all. And I'll talk to him about this. Sounds good. Thanks, Rikant. Okay. So, anybody else in the audience who would like to join us? You know, some of our, you know, it can be also anything, as Catherine mentioned. It just doesn't have to be only battery day. You know, we can also open it up for any kind of topic. You want to mention anything, any highlights from the past week?

39:17I can maybe also add one quick one in the meantime, what people are thinking is this week actually has been another battery day. It's called Car Battery Day from the Car Institute. So, that's like an institute here in Germany. And it was interesting because they had, you know, the senior leadership from Volkswagen there, like the heads of development there, a few board members. And they had a lot of the companies, OEMs there, a lot of the supplier companies. And so, it was a really nice event. And some, I think, of the highlights for me were some of the things which struck with me is one, you know, hearing some of the plans from Volkswagen and S4 and some of these companies. Because, yeah, I think they did. So, one slide was, for example, from Volkswagen saying right now, right, the battery cost for them is 40% of the car. And 95% of the batteries are produced in China or, like, you know, produced through Chinese companies.

40:09And they actually have been showing, you know, that they want to reduce the cost of batteries by 50%, I think by 2030 or something like that. And they said, you know, of these kind of, of the cost right now, of this 40% automotive cost, you know, the battery cost, it's 40% of the automotive. But from this 40%, 80% is through the battery materials. And 20% is through the battery production. And they want to reduce, you know, the cost by reducing 15% of this 20% of production. So, really, you know, really reducing even more of the reduction cost quite significantly. And then reduce 35% of the materials cost. And, of course, like LFP is something they announced for lower, you know, price cars. And, yeah, so I think this was just interesting to kind of understand a bit of their economics and how they want to reduce the price. And then they also have been very bullish about solid-state, right, with QuantumScape. They're working together.

41:08I think 2025, they said they would expect some to be out there. And we know there's many other exciting, you know, solid-state companies out there. But it was interesting to see that they're very, you know, quite bullish about it. And it will be interesting to see what's going to happen in the coming years. Yeah. Okay. Anybody else who would like to share something? Maybe Catherine or Bavia or Barth? Bavia, you want to jump in? Yeah, thanks for that. So, you know, just really opening up the stage, you know, for any discussion topics or any thoughts you have about anything we should cover specifically for Battery Day as well. I think it's a great platform. Every Saturday, it is a way to get to know everyone and to get more information. But really, an event, a condensate event with everyone's purpose is to kind of like meet each other and talk to each other and learn from each other. I think it's very different. And so, yeah, I really do actively encourage everyone to participate in these events and, you know, treat this as a teaser to that.

42:57So feel free to join us on stage to talk about anything and just network with us. Hi, Etishan. Hi, Catherine. It's me, Etishan. Yeah, so just want to give you an insight from last week. So from a lithium perspective, we have seen prices have increased for lithium carbonate and lithium hydroxide. So this has been like now a concern. So just for this year, the prices have increased by three times. So I think there's some issues with the supply chain, some restrictions. We need to accelerate a lot more when it comes to lithium resources. But unfortunately, it takes five to seven years when it comes to lithium mines to come into place and get the materials. So it's really interesting, like CATL, when they did, they exposed the sodium-ion batteries, which could actually de-risk this a lot when it comes to the future. So I think that's just my opinion when it comes to salt. Well, thanks so much for that, Etishan. That's very interesting.

44:31I mean, I have to be honest, I didn't know about this news. So thanks so much. I'm learning from you on this. We had a topic, I think, I can't remember how long ago that was, but we had a topic on supply chain. And I think that was a big issue as well. I mean, there are people saying that we don't have to worry about it. And there's not a school of thought that's thinking like, hey, we do actually just get things going and have the mines going, et cetera. Yeah, it's a great topic. Simon, do you have any thoughts to add on this? Or do you recall what we had discussed before during the supply chain topic earlier? And yeah, is this something that we can perhaps also touch on during battery day? It's another thing. It's a great and very valid point, Etishan, which you brought up. Because I think, as you said, I think the news where that lithium prices actually, you know, potentially increase.

45:36And that will kind of put strain on the pricing, right? Which means actually that maybe the lithium and battery costs wouldn't reduce for a year or so, which is, of course, fine for a year. But that's kind of, you know, just could become a bit of an issue to the trend we have been seeing, right? That the assumption is that battery is going to get cheaper every year. That's kind of also now part of the assumptions. And I think there's always this discussion about, right, will it stay like this? Or will it, you know, because essentially will the supply chain make it tricky and will the battery costs increase again? And I think also I saw actually some tweet from James Smith, who was, you know, our conversation starter and our speaker in this regional battery supply chain topic. And he was also kind of talking about it and sharing it on Twitter. And I think, you know, that this could have quite some implications if it's, you know, if the materials price of batteries, because that's why I keep increasing.

46:31Because, yeah, it would kind of put an issue to the anticipation of having electric cars, which are cheaper than ICE cars by 2030. Because that's the current prediction, right, from Bloomberg NEV. But if you're interested in this topic, I mean, another plug. Actually, James Smith, he's going to provide an outlook together with a few other experts at the end of Battery Day. And so it's going to be the last kind of last session, the perspective and outlook. And he might share some interesting arguments and thoughts on this topic. So, Tushan, I'm very happy. I mean, happy to also flag this to him if he wants to say something about that. He might do it anyways, because I'm sure it's very much on top of his mind. But I think it's a very valid point you brought up. And it's something which is, yeah, it's important to keep an eye out and see how this develops. Yeah, that's a good point. Thanks for sharing. Thanks, Tushan.

47:24And thanks for joining us, Raj Lakshmi. Give me thoughts to add or, you know, just chat. Yeah, hi, this is Raj Lakshmi. And I'm from India. Thank you so much for calling me here. Thank you so much, Simon, sir. And thank you so much that because of you all people, I got to know about what is actually going in the battery and EV ecosystem of the globe. Thank you, Bharat, sir. And thank you, Bharat, sir, for continuously mentoring me and giving me insights about what is happening. Actually, due to the Battery Associates, I came across this lithium-ion battery technology. And due to this, I came to learn a lot of things, especially the white paper. I'm very impressed with this white paper released by a Battery Associates. I'm also reading this monthly newspaper, which is reading. And it is all giving me so much insights. And yet, I'm very happy to join in the battery event also. Actually, I'm involved in every scene of the Battery Associates.

48:45So, thank you so much for your continuous support and everything. Thank you so much. Thanks, sir, for sharing. We're excited to have you there. Pierre. Hello. Good morning, everybody. Or good evening. Or good afternoon, wherever you are. Yeah. Simon, I just reposted your tweet there. I know how much work it is to do something with you and the team. So, big kudos. And I was not really aware, but I think I will hop in in one or the other session I tried to arrange. Very interesting. Actually, I have two questions. First of all, you were touching on – no, I saw in your profile the BatteryMBA topic. Could you just quickly maybe give an insight on that? Is it like a full-time MBA, or can it be done besides the job? Sure. I'm very happy to – so, essentially, the BatteryMBA is really designed for people working full-time, right? So, I think 95% of the participants are working full-time at this point. And we have participants from ABB, Hitachi Energy, S-Volt, Schneider Electric, AVL, a bunch of battery startups, policy experts, consultants.

50:19And it's really quite nicely developing. So, it's a 12-week online program. We have some fantastic lecturers. For example, Catherine and Bavia both gave a lecture in the past as well on thermal management as well as recycling. In this cohort, for example, we have – on Monday, we have the head of R&D of S-Volt, a big Chinese battery producing company. They have a cobalt-free cathode based on nickel manganese, which is quite exciting. Then we also have, you know, the head of partnerships from Johnson & Matthew talking about materials. Then we also have a couple of startups as well, speaking from Posenix, for example, which also maybe you remember from Battery Den, in case people have been there. But we also have, you know, people from Porsche Consulting talking about how to build gigafactories. And people from Siemens also about production side. And, yeah, so the idea is really to provide like kind of like, you know, like an insight across the entire value chain of batteries.

51:20And it's really designed as continuous learning. So participants have access to all the past lectures as well as to all the future ones. At least that's this year. For next year, actually, it's going to be a subscription. So you get one year access to all the future ones. And if you want to continue, you have to – you know, there's a subscription option. But, yeah, it's a 12-week program. It costs 1,500 euros at this time. And, yeah, so there's also scholarships available if people, you know, fall for hardship and increasing diversity. And, yeah, it's been a really nice program. We have now some really good partnerships. So, as I mentioned, ABB is paying for it. Tectronics is paying for it. Itouch Energy is paying for it. A few other companies are paying for it. Fisner and others. So, yeah, it's been growing quite nicely. And we have participants from 27 countries. And 45% of the participants are female as well, which is quite amazing and important to us.

52:18Very interesting. I think not to hijack the room, but maybe one more question. So these 12 weeks, you say, are they distributed over half a year or are they in a row? Or how do you organize that? And is it in presence or how is that? Yeah, so there are 12 weeks, you know, continuous. So there's three times a year. So we do – so one just started a week ago. So this is running from September till December. The next one then starts in January to March. And then there's the one from – what is it? May then to September. I'm a bit lost now. But, yeah, the one in between. And so it's always 12 weeks. And you ask – yeah, it's online. So, yeah, because we have participants from 27 countries. And I think that's honestly also one of, you know, the benefits in some way from, you know, from all this corona we just went through, right? That online education, I think, is getting a bit of a boost because I'm a big believer in it, to be honest, because I think, you know, especially now that we have people from 27 countries participating and just having this wealth of, you know, insight.

53:24So we have now participants from New Zealand, Australia, Indonesia, Philippines, Europe, U.S., you know, India and all around, really. And I think the exchanges are so fascinating because that means we have people in the mining industry. We have people in supply chains. We have people in the production and the research and the recycling. All these participants, you know, being part of it. The nice thing actually we started in the last cohort is that every single participant is also giving a mini presentation, like a 15-minute presentation. So that means, for example, these current participants, they're going to have 30 lectures if they want. So they're 10 live lectures, 20 recorded lectures, plus 30 mini lectures or 29 because we have 30 participants from each other. So actually, this information is just amazing because I also helped Cambridge when I did my PhD there. I helped them. I ran the battery module there for a master's program. And I think, yeah, just the firsthand insights we have is just unprecedented, in my opinion.

54:25And we also got an accreditation. So we got the CBT accreditation, which is the same accreditation. That's thanks to the team who really did a lot of work on this. It's the same accreditation, which is used by the University of Cambridge, Law and School of Economics, et cetera, for their online program. So, yeah, so it's all online. It's fully compliant for people working full-time. And I think it's a quite unique opportunity to get first-hand information in this cohort. For example, we have people's 20-year work experience from Mac International. We have the executive directors of the Global Battery Alliance. We have experts from ABB, Hitachi, et cetera. So it's a nice group. I can recommend it. But of course, I'm biased. You know what I mean? We're running it. But I think it's good value. At least that's what we're getting told. So it sounds like good value to me from the price to what you put in as content. So thanks for that. And my second topic is away again from the academic training to the battery world.

55:25I wonder about the following topic. Maybe you hosted rooms on it before. Maybe it is a good topic for a future room here in your club. But we often have in our club the discussions on the battery technology. And now maybe you heard the referral program is changing from Tesla. And they push more for support of solar roof, less for selling cars. So they sell enough cars, I guess. But they want to push now the solar topic more. And in this relationship, we often talk about batteries for sure, battery supply chain, and so on and so on. And I think it's obvious the car batteries have quite different requirements than, for instance, the home storage or grid batteries. Because in the car, you have a high focus on high performance, low weight, low volume. And more or less, if you have a house, a bigger house, it doesn't matter whether your battery is like one cubic meter or two cubic meters. And whether it is like 200 kilos or 500 kilos, it doesn't really matter.

56:29So for me, not being really a battery expert or specialist, it often seems like a waste of resource. If we talk these lithium-ion high performance batteries of second or third generation going into the different electric vehicles and in the Teslas at the moment, it's a waste to put them into fixed grid storage. And I wonder why or how or is there really a strong development on the very cheap, high-performance battery for the grid application so that we get away from these very expensive batteries and maybe get to kind of battery chemistries and battery types that are on the one side highly scalable. So you can just roll them off your production side like a baking bread. And on the other hand, the chemistry is very, very open, non-critical with respect to the ingredients, to the metals you need, and to the shape factor or whatever. Is there something like that so that we do not always waste highly, highly specialized batteries on very, let's say, non-fitting application like the grid battery and the home storage?

57:51That's an excellent point. And maybe also other people want to contribute to this. But actually, what's interesting, because we are looking at this right now also from another white paper perspective, which is LFP versus sodium-ion. And you might have seen the news with CATL announcing sodium-ion, and we have been writing about it in our newsletter as well. And I just went to this conference with Feradian, which also was interesting, began to hear from the CTO talking about it. It's like a startup in the UK on sodium-ion batteries. So it's been working on this for a while. And essentially, right there, trying to be reducing the cost again quite a bit compared to being low-cost, similar to LFP, but trying to have some arguments where they think it's better. So I think personally, I think we will see for low-cost, like station application, LFP is a very obvious one at this point. Other ones could be sodium, et cetera, coming. Then you also have other technologies, such as form energy, et cetera, right, which is even more large-scale kind of with a perspective.

58:52But I mean, I don't want to plug it too much, but actually we have a lecture coming up in the BatteryMBA, this time from Pilar from Ibadrola, which is like a large utility company in Spain. And it's really interesting because these utilities, of course, they're now realizing also things are changing. So they're spending quite a lot of effort in analyzing all those different technologies for stationary, for their utility applications. And what's interesting is, I mean, they also see quite a lot of battery applications there, and they're looking also at the different chemistries and different use cases for them. So I think this maybe just would be a bit of a hint that there might be some insights coming from that side. But I think it's very clear that you won't use NMC and CEA, these kind of technologies for stationary. It just doesn't make sense. I think if you look at also what Elon Musk is treating about it, he's very bullish even for mobility applications with LFP.

59:46But for stationary, I don't see any reason why you put NMC and CEA in there. I don't know if you have any other information or if this is what you're hinting at. But yeah, I think that's something which has been done in the beginning. But I don't think there will be many stationary applications where you choose a similar technology. It just doesn't make sense from a stability standpoint, cost standpoint, etc. Yeah, that's, as you mentioned and hinted, there's lots of bits and pieces in the discussion on the internet. I'm more radical there. If you talk about lithium-eisenphosphate, lithium-feronphosphate batteries, for instance, that's still a very high-performing battery because, I mean, they were put in electric cars. Everybody was a little bit like, oh, no, I don't want to have the car with that battery. And like some months later on, the battery management system was tweaked and they are very, very well-performing. Yeah, so no, that's still too good. I'm talking like a factor of 10 or more cheaper.

1:00:45Yeah, that's what I think is what we need. Factor 10 cheaper at least and factor 10 simpler to produce in mass production, also with respect to supply chain, to really push the grid part of it, to really push the permanent storage of it and get rid of these green hydrogen discussions. That's what I'm hinting at and that's what I'm interested in. No clue, but interested if something is on the horizon or people are working on these kind of technologies. That's fantastic. I think maybe also, I don't know if anybody else has any thoughts, but essentially, if you look at Form, do you know Form Energy, Pierre? Have you heard of them? No, I am a battery rookie. That's perfect. No, I mean, I will send you a link here on the chat. That might be of interest. And I agree with you. I think this, you know, 10x, like, you know, $10 per kilowatt hour is a really big one. But what's also interesting is, right, it's not only about upfront costs, right?

1:01:45It's also running costs because one thing for utility, you know, perspective and also other use cases such as electric trains, et cetera, you have very different requirements, right? So if you have an electric car, you have a, you know, warranty of eight years or something, right? But if you put a battery into stationary use, you have to do a talk like 20, 30 years. That's also from an insurance standpoint. It's actually interesting to talk to insurers about these topics. So that's why if you look at, you know, the kind of like the requirements, let's say, they have to last a very long time. So it's quite challenging. And especially some of these new technologies, it's hard to prove in advance that they're actually going to last that long. So that's why people may be useful for maybe more established technologies. One thing maybe though to mention for LFP as well is it's quite challenging actually to do good state of charge predictions. So it's actually one of our favorite lectures in the BatteryMBA.

1:02:39And Claudius Yele, you know, CEO from Lutica Diagnostics, will spend all their day on like, you know, prediction of state of health and state of charge of EVs. And it's very challenging to do a good job on LFP, which means most of these batteries are actually oversized. So like 10% plus or something. I think that's what twice told us on the panel on the EA in building last week. And that actually means, you know, you need more batteries than you actually, or use more batteries than you actually need. But because of the prediction is so hard, you use more. And yeah, so I think that's something which is still quite interesting. But I will send you the form energy link. And maybe also one thing, I just got a message about the educational program mentioned earlier, the BatteryMBA. If you go on battery.mba, there's the brochure and all information. You can register for the upcoming cohort there. So yeah, just battery.mba. Or if you Google BatteryMBA, or if you go on my profile, you'll find it there as well.

1:03:32And Pierre, I'm sending you now the link about the form energy people. And I know them also. I know some of the people quite well. So if you want to get some more information, let me know. Thanks a lot. Yeah, I just wanted to add there, as Simon said, it's the, so what I see in the horizon is it's the form energy that if you want to reduce by at least by a 10 times factor. So it's a, it's really cheap. You just need a space and they have a proof in concept. And there are like experts from, like, from the team. So he has led so many battery storage startup companies. And also now some of them are prominent companies. So yeah, I would trust when it comes to information from them. I think they might come with a solution. So it's a form energy. Yeah, thanks indeed. Maybe 10 times is even too small. And because, as you said, there's completely different requirements.

1:04:45We want to have a long life. We want to have a lot of cycles over this long life. And we don't want to have too much maintenance. I think if you have maintenance, it has to be dirty cheap so that the battery is just being replaced with a smart management system. You just pull it out, recycle it, and put the new one in. Stuff like that. But these things are also quite challenging from a regulatory perspective. Because if you use, for example, a second life battery again, you essentially have the same, you know, it has to be the same kind of safety as a new battery, right? So it's actually quite challenging to do that because you essentially have the same, you know, same variety and things. You know, you have to really guarantee that. And it's more challenging, right? Because you can imagine you don't really know the exact use of it, et cetera. So there's a lot of data challenges and usage challenges.

1:05:39You assume that I was thinking of a second life battery, but I'm rather thinking of recycling, you know, milling it down to grind it down again and regain the ingredients. Or as I would expect someone to develop, really have dirt cheap ingredients to build just very cheap batteries at a very high scale to really overflow the market with this stuff. Because we are talking terawatts required. Absolutely. Maybe just one quick thing to add on this one is, of course, also, you know, I agree with you. I think the recycling is a big one. And Bavia is actually a recycling expert here. So she should say something. Maybe you want to add something. But actually, we talked about a few, you know, recycling companies as well. And it's, you know, it's all good and stuff. But it's actually not that easy to get a perfect, you know, perfect raw materials like precursors again out of recycling. So it can be a bit challenging at times. But of course, there's some, you know, very exciting companies in the space as well doing some really good job.

1:06:43And then the second thing is, of course, all the, you know, if we go to V2G, right, we go to grid. You know, it's one of these debated topics. But also Volkswagen, again, on this battery day this week was quite clear about this, right, that they definitely see the opportunity there. And if you think about, you know, I mean, I forgot the number, but I think it's, it could be also a terroir hour or something. If you think about all the EVs, even just from Volkswagen being on the road in five years or so, or seven, I think it was 2027, they had some terroir hour or something, if I have it correctly, on the road and, you know, through Volkswagen alone. So I think there's a big potential as well, right, to use this. And we can see now also, you might have seen Tesla is now working together with Octopus EV, which is a British company. And they're offering now an energy plan in southern Germany and Bavaria.

1:07:32And there's some interesting concepts. They do vehicle to grid for a while, for Nissan leaves and things. And a lot of these things are also like regulatory issues, like, you know, some regulatory issues, which again is Bavaria, the better person to talk about. So I don't know, Bavaria, if you have any things you would add on the recycling and the policy side, maybe. Yeah, the, well, the interesting thing with the recycling sector right now is that, I mean, I think it's a pretty hopping area. We have definitely talked about it here on our Clubhouse forum. I think we'll be touching on it in our battery day as well. And maybe it's also time to bring it back here because I think there have been many updates. I actually have spent most of my time in recycling, but more recently actually have pivoted a bit more to second life topics as well, because I think there's a huge debate that we've also had on this forum about recycling versus second life.

1:08:34And, you know, I think as far as getting like raw materials from it that are, you know, that we're able to use, that's been a huge question. And I think thinking about the different recycling methods of hydro, pyro, direct, those are some of the questions that keep coming up. But I don't think there have been, to be honest, very like conclusive answers as to like what is the right way to go and really what's going to drive the change in industry to actually do that. And so I think that's where the policy questions have kicked in. But I know I feel as someone in the US that Europe has a bit more direction on that and that there is less so in the US. But I'd love, happy to hear someone's thoughts if they feel otherwise or have more updates on this front. Yeah, thanks. Thanks on that. Yeah, recycling is a big topic on its own. I would quickly like to touch on this vehicle to grid again.

1:09:39For me, that's a personal moonshot. The vehicle to grid is, I think, from a philosophical point of view against what we want to achieve. We cannot have very large batteries driving around with one person sitting on top. I think from the targets we have, if you just think into the future, not with your personal feelings, but from an objective point of view. And personally, I like driving big cars, I can tell you. It's just a waste of resource, a waste of space. So now we have the hype. We need 1,000 kilometer batteries. I think at the end, this will not be the future. This will be available as a technology, but the future would rather be like optimized cars cost-wise and size-wise and fast charging rather than big battery. Because if you have like a 300-mile range or 250-mile range, which is perfectly feasible technically, and you can charge your daily consumption even if you're not charging at home, like in 10 minutes, the topic is done.

1:10:51There is no big impact on your private life anymore. And hence, I think you don't want to have, let's say, conflicting optimization targets for these car batteries. You want to have them cheap. You want to have them optimized for the car application and small and lightweight, except for the long-range car. And then you pay more for the car and for the battery. And hence, you don't want to plug in this too large battery that we have today into the house and maybe reduce getting problems with your warranty or reduce the cycle life of the battery. That's why I think we need more differentiation between the different applications and more applied production and chemistry systems for all these applications. That's my personal view of the future in like 10, 15 years. No, I personally, maybe you have a point. Maybe just one quick thing from me before. I very much agree with this. And I think the one thing is also to appreciate, right? The reduction of cost of lithium-ion batteries is very much connected to the volume, right?

1:12:00I mean, there's this nice chart, and you might know it, you know, where essentially the cost of reduction is linear, like cost reduces linearly with volume of production. So it's not really time as well in production. It's something similar, what we have seen with solar, and something similar now we see with batteries. And based on this one, right, like the more batteries can produce, the cheaper it's going to get if there's not like a shortage of material, which of course is one of the issues Tushan brought up earlier today. But assuming this won't be the case, you know, the idea really is, you know, the more volume you produce, the cheaper it will get, which is one of the reasons why Tesla kind of, you know, has said they're going to reduce the product, you know, the battery cost by 50%. But that requires, you know, this increase of battery production. So they have to get everyone else to move electric, which they achieved, which is amazing.

1:12:48But to increase it further, right, it's really all about scale, like how much more volume can you produce to reduce it? So I think similar here, you know, you talk about cheaper grid storage, etc. It's quite challenging, actually. If you bring a new technology to market, we have seen many examples which didn't work or have been challenged by that is if you bring a new chemistry, etc., but you don't produce it at a similar scale, it won't be cheaper, right? Because the cheapness comes through the scale of it. So it can be quite tricky for some of these new technologies. If you talk about, you know, even if the materials are cheap, but you produce them at smaller volume to be cheaper, because just the volume production makes things cheaper. So that's quite tricky sometimes for these new technologies to enter because the price reduction is very continuous right now through the scale of lithium-ion and similar technologies. But Tushan, you had a point maybe you would like to add.

1:13:38No, I agree with you, Simon. When we have scalar production, anything, then the cost will come drastically down. But also, PeerMaker is a really important point on fast charging. So that's something that we need to crack. And once we crack that, batteries can be really small. Even with the current prices, they can be really small. If you can fast charge them within five minutes, and if you can get at least 150, 200-kilometer driving range, I think that would take us to the next step, drive even more towards EV and getting rid of the ice cars. So, yeah, I think people are working on, scientists are working on that. It's really a hard problem to crack fast charging. Even with silicon, yes, because you have a higher capacity, it might be a thinner silicon electrode, so there might be a lower diffusion path, so you could fast charge, but then it has its own problems with volume expansion. Lithium, the same problem. But even with current graphite electrodes, people are looking into 3D patterned electrodes and more and more solutions.

1:14:57So if we could crack that code, fast charging, yes, batteries will become smaller. We don't need large batteries, and the cost will come down as well. Maybe just one quick plug also to Battery Day, because on there we have Doran from Storedot on the panel in the afternoon, late afternoon, and maybe I've seen the news, so they have like a 14, you know, large cell, like the Tesla large cell format, and I think they do a charge in five minutes. Of course, you know, I mean, there's still, I think, many things to figure out, but it's interesting to see these companies, you know, at least claiming they can do this very fast charge, now also at large form factors, which of course is something also you have to achieve. The world is already better than, let's say, the color of the conversation we have at the moment. For these cars we have at the moment, with, in my opinion, for the average mass market, two big batteries, that's the reason why they can, I guess, fast charge at the lower rate of charge.

1:16:08We are already in the five minute range for the 100 kilometers, and in the range for the 200 kilometers. So that's already there. I think the development we need is at the range by half, like have a 300 or 250, 300 kilometer battery for the typical large urban city application of the car or small town where the people have a daily drive of 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 kilometers, maybe 100. And if you then can charge this 250 and 300 kilometer battery, like in 10 minutes from 20 to 80 or from 20 to 90, there is almost no impact on, for instance, in a country like Germany on the long distance travel. I mean, how long do you want to distance on normal life, you know? I'm not talking about the 2,000 or 3,000 kilometer vacation trip, but even then, you have a little bit more time. But interesting would be, like, to have these large charge rates that we have today going beyond the 200 kilowatt and having, like, 100 kilometers five minutes and 200 kilometers, like 15 to 20 minutes, half that speed, double that speed and half the size of the batteries.

1:17:22I think that would be then anything beyond that is really over optimization, especially, as I expect, we will see also a revolution in traffic and in transportation from the way we do the things there. Agreed. Just one quick, Mary, thing I would like to add also is, right, I mean, you know there's a user, you know, it's quite fast to charge about 80%. The last 20% take a long time. And the reason for that, actually, you know, when you go from constant current to constant voltage charging, right, I think it can be a bit of challenging to get the last 20%. So, of course, you have to take this into account. But if you get smaller batteries, you cannot actually charge, you know, all the way as fast. So, yeah, I mean, it's detailed stuff. Catherine, you're next. Catherine, are you here? Maybe not. I think otherwise Edwin joined us. Yeah. Hi, everyone. I want to add something to the discussion. There's also a lot to gain in the energy efficiency.

1:18:46While we just started to improve the energy efficiency for electric cars, I can give you an example of a company which achieves a great leap in this factor. it's Lightyear 1. They are making the first solar family car. And that solar car has a 60 kilowatt hour battery. But they were able to crank out about 710 kilometers on the range with that 60 kilowatt hour battery. And if you compare that to a 60 kilowatt hour battery in, say, for example, a Tesla Model 3, you get about half of the range. So, we can really improve the energy efficiency and make huge gains in range. That I wanted to add. Okay. That's an excellent point. Thank you for sharing, Edwin. And I don't know, do you know which cars are the most efficient? Because you mentioned Lightyear and I think there are some other ones, right? Trying to get into this. I think Lucid, did they also claim to be more efficient? I don't know, if you know more about Tesla efficiency compared to other models.

1:20:17I'm just curious if you know just like a ranking or something. If we go to, let's say, less typical car shapes, that's what I also mean with changing the principle of a car from a four or five-seater all-round going for shopping, going for surfing, going for whatever, to a thing which transports you from A to B with the proper range and the proper space maybe for two people and luggage. We have also the DERA concept upcoming and they are drawing all the strings you could possibly draw from what they show and from what they publish to increase efficiency. It starts with aerodynamic efficiency. The car rather looks like a fish than like a car. It's got half the coefficient of drag comparable to other cars which are top-notch today on the road and hence they are also talking about a thousand kilometer range. It's a lightweight car, two-seater, quite big trunk because it's drop-shaped. You can look it up on Aptera and in this range, doubling at least the aerodynamic efficiency already as well as maybe also increasing your driving efficiency with battery management, with motors and stuff like that.

1:21:42It all of a sudden makes sense to put solar panels on the thing because you might get really in the range of several tenths of miles, so like 10, 20, 30 miles of range just having the car parked, which makes then sense. That's definitely a super exciting concept. solar motors, right? We're a Bavarian building-based startup. We also have a participant from the IARA at the Batch MBA and it's super interesting what they're developing. Absolutely, right? That's so exciting, right? If you think back, how many new car concepts and mobility concepts have been there in the last hundred years? It feels like almost every month or something there's a new concept coming up from things we also discussed such as battery swapping and solar integration and more efficient drivetrains and electric takeoff. It's just super exciting I think the diversity we're getting now of different options and it'll be interesting to see what's going to prevail. I'm with you. That's super exciting that there's so many new things coming up and all enabled through the batteries, right?

1:22:58I mean, that's the biggest bottleneck for many of these things to work properly. looking at the time. We also have three minutes left. It goes by quickly. So if anybody wants to share something, Pierre, you just have me. It's not only the batteries. That's a major part. I think it's also society mindset which helps. For instance, the Aptera concept. I think it's brand new. It's great. When I was in school, we had solar race cars visiting the school. There was a large crowd of pupils around it looking at it. Basically, it was a sailplane, a sailplane fuselage, and they cut off the wings and they cut off the empennage and they put a drop-shaped large wing on the rear, a rectangular wing with solar panels. So at that time, they were optimizing for aerodynamic performance for sure and for reduced energy need so that they can use more solar and less battery. But people would have never liked to drive around in this kind of thing and the Aptera is for me like the next level evolution of these kind of concepts taking the best from today's motorary electronic software and going again away from the classic car shape to the more functional form follows function shape aerodynamically and given also environmental pressure, social pressure and awareness.

1:24:38People now look at this kind of vehicle maybe with a complete different view and have more acceptance to buy it. It's rather something special and something to be proud of than something which is just an in-between solution that doesn't bring you nowhere and you've got 10 kilometers of range and you need to charge for three days and stuff like that. So also that's a factor besides battery technology for me. 100% agree. I think it's a big kind of combination. It's a back and forth. Actually just thinking, I just look at this app Terra, I didn't really know much about them. but it's going to be interesting to see what mobility looks like maybe in a few years' time. It's developing very quickly. I maybe have also something news. They are starting to develop 3.75 megawatt charging chargers. That's about 12-volt increase over the 350 kilowatt hour charging we now are starting to see. but they are developing that for airplanes and for ships and for large trucks.

1:26:03I was in a mini congress just yesterday and it was mentioned that they are looking into those developments. Fantastic. Thank you for sharing and looking at the time. It's kind of time. Catherine, would you maybe like closer for the day and maybe just one last pitch also for Battery Day on the 23rd of September next Thursday? time. Thank you so much everyone. Time really slides quickly for these questions and thank you so much for active participation. So yes, a quick reminder on everyone that Battery Day happens next Thursday. Feel free to sign up on the website and reach out to Simon and Catherine and myself if you have any questions and Bobby as well. I don't see her on stage right now. probably dropped off. But yes, thank you all so much and look forward to seeing all of you guys back next week. Thank you.