Battery Insiders Reflection - Li-metal batteries with SES AI

0:00Transcript

0:00Welcome to Battery Insiders, your podcast providing you insights and the fascinating world of batteries. Hosted by Bhavya Jha and Simon Engelke. And welcome back, everyone, and welcome to our 57th Battery Insiders episode. And it was a bit of a special one, because on the one hand, we had this really exciting topic of lithium metal batteries with people from SES-E-I, and I think we had some great updates and insights, but also was here joined by Mariam. Mariam, good to see you. Nice to see you, Simon. It was an exciting episode. It absolutely was. Yeah, so maybe just a quick word. So this is the last episode of this year. So hopefully you enjoyed this year with us, if you've been listening with us for a while. Of course, we covered a range of different topics, and I think it was a great ending to the year, really looking at one of these companies, you know, at the forefront, and one of these topics looking at, but also a company which went through a SPAC, and I think was interesting to get a bit of, you know, thoughts and insights on the financing of battery innovation as well.

1:06So with this, Mariam, is there maybe anything you want to kick us off with? Well, I want to say that we started out because there was so much curiosity around why lithium metal batteries. We hear about all these different chemistries for batteries, and especially for EVs. And so that was the first topic of discussion for us is, why is SESAI even building lithium metal batteries? What are the pros? What are the cons there? So what was interesting to hear was that lithium metal, you know, it maintained the high energy density of other types of chemistries like solid-state, but the supply chain is the same as lithium-ion. And that sort of allows the interface between better performance and the ability to scale up manufacturing of these cells. 100% no, very much agree. And I think, yeah, there was a couple of interesting facts in there. We had our two speakers here, Tichao, CEO and founder of SESAI, working on this for over a decade, which I think was also interesting to hear their journey from the start at MIT, you know, through all of the, you know, the recent developments with the SPAC, et cetera.

2:13But also we had Mark Newman with us, who was the founder of Electric Revolution Ventures, who actually joined through the SPAC. And I think it was really interesting to also get there a bit more, maybe a bit of personal experience, you know, and journey through that. And of course, it's, you know, we're all very passionate about battery innovation. And as Mariam just said, you know, to get things implemented, get them done. And of course, money is always a big topic because we need money to make these things happen. And it's interesting to see what different routes people take. Maybe some of them are better than others, but at the end of the day, I think for us, it's just a bit great learning to see what's out there and see, you know, how they implement it. And I think they both gave a really insightful story on that. And maybe, Mariam, is there anything else you want to kind of bring up anything you found stood out to you?

2:54Well, what stood out to me was actually the discussion around why do startups exist in the battery space? So, Tichao, who's the CEO of SESAI, had mentioned that, you know, they're building a battery company. They're not just building a battery innovation. And what that means is that they have to own every part of the supply and manufacturing chain. And that actually got us, I think it was about 15 minute discussion, actually, about the role of startups in building out, you know, the battery industry. And I think there was agreement that there are market inefficiencies that startups can actually address and that startups have a lot of actually a very large role to play in innovation. So, I definitely agree with you there, Simon. Absolutely. And I think also something which stood out to me was this discussion about A, B and C samples, because we often hear about that. It comes up, you know, I think people in the industry know what they mean with it.

3:51But I think, you know, a lot of people are like, what are these samples? And also, it was also a question from the audience there as well. And I think it was, I mean, a quick summary. You want to probably listen to the full thing. But, you know, essentially saying the A sample here, or like the way, you know, the different ways to put it, but the way Tichao put it is the A sample is to de-risk the technology. Then the B sample is to de-risk the manufacturing and the supply chain. Something there, I think, in. And then C sample is actually the final vehicle testing. What I found interesting is that already in A sample, that they have to be at the right form factor compared to, you know, what the client expects. The performance might not have to be, you know, perfect yet, but it has to be, you know, decent and good enough. But the form factor already has to be locked in for the A sample.

4:33Then the B sample actually is where you really have to iron out any performance, you know, deficient like C compared to what the client expects. So I think this was just really fascinating, also kind of their story. And as you say, I think, you know, them being a startup, which is, you know, rather advanced compared to many others, but also really, you know, I mean, Tichao has gone through it, right? He has done his PhD in MIT, as far as I remember, and, you know, doing innovation there. And, you know, really going through a couple of pivots as well. And I think he was quite open about this as well, how they wanted to go for full solid-state in the beginning. And then saw, you know, this is not really feasible at this point, right? So I think doing the, you know, the pivots needed to get to somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. And just to mention as well with the A, B, and C samples, what I learned is, of course, A is de-risking technology, B is de-risking manufacturing supply chain, C is de-risking operations.

5:24And what's interesting is a lot of times when we talk about innovation, we talk about the A and pre-A. We talk about how do you de-risk a new innovation and new technology. But there was a really big focus on this podcast episode, especially on the engineering challenges, not just the innovation challenges. So the idea that, you know what, the engineering challenges mean that you have to be able to decrease the cost, you have to be able to get performance to spec to where the OEM needs them to be. And for that, sometimes you have to make really tough choices, like having to own the entire supply chain, going from building electrolyte to building the cells, doing cell engineering, and then having to look at the entire picture on every part of the manufacturing supply chain. That's something that's, you know, almost never talked about when we talk about innovation is how do we actually innovate with the engineering side of things? How do we make it feasible and scalable?

6:16Absolutely. And I think that's also something we spoke about, right? I think that's like what matters in academia and what matters in the real world and how this can be a bit different at times. And, you know, you can get a great publication on a really fancy chemistry, which never see the day of light beyond the lab. But I think to get real things done, engineering is so crucial and often, as you say, overlooked. And I think this also goes a bit into this. I mean, there's a range of questions. Of course, it's always really nice for us if there's a lot of people engaged and excited. And I think we definitely could have covered more time. But I think, you know, the one of ours have been packed. And I think there's also the question about data. And I think something Achim also brought up and how data sharing can be made available, but also how, you know, yeah, just like, you know, how there can be more transparency across all of the different value steps, as you just mentioned, from academia research, but then also later on, you know, into the companies and then smaller companies, bigger companies.

7:07So we're just more data sharing. I think what was interesting also, this comment on, right, that, of course, at the moment, there is some sharing going on by people, right? Because, I mean, you know, of course, people have NDAs and things and they shouldn't be talking about what they're doing. But I think, you know, of course, naturally, people will move also between different organizations and they have bring their knowledge with them. Again, they have NDAs, so they can't really talk about what they exactly probably did, but they can at least use their skill set, right, what they learned. Okay, I know things that can be done this and this way. And I think that's actually quite, you know, something maybe we don't think about so much, right, that actually people are sometimes these bridges, not even, you know, at the current role, but when they change roles in the future. And I think everyone in the audience was actually quite pleased to know there was data that was published by SESAI, data reports that could be found.

7:53In an open platform. Because I think people, we all are looking to learn a little bit more about what we're doing and how we could do it better. And just having that data available makes that quite useful. But again, going back to the topic of academia versus private industry, private industry can probably move a bit faster. It's focused more on the engineering side of things. But with academia, you can publish data. And that was the whole dichotomy that was being discussed in the podcast is how can we do both? Absolutely. And I think that's a very, very important point you bring there. And I think I also in the chat also shared some of the resources on the website to find. And also, of course, we also maybe one thing we should mention, this was also a bit of a response. This event and a bit of connection to the Battery World event that just ran the same week, just a few days before. And also releasing new insights, new insights there and also data.

8:47So I think that's, as you say, I think that's quite important. And yeah, we just want to encourage more other players as well to do similar. I think it's really important. One question I didn't get to ask was also like, is it easier to share data as a private or public company? And I would say it goes both ways, right? On the one hand, you maybe have more requirement to be more transparent because you have to be as a public company. At the same time, of course, you have much more restrictions also what you can share when. Of course, no forward-looking statements and things like that. So yeah, I just found this also curious. And I've seen the struggle on both ends, I feel, but at least from other people we had in the podcast. But yeah, I think this was really, yeah, I think really appreciated. I personally, for me, maybe from my side to wrap it up, I think one of the highlights, definitely, has been a bit their personal story.

9:35They're introducing their journey and how they've gone through it. I think that's so important, right? We have many people on this podcast either are in the industry and want to like, you know, progress and looking, you know, what maybe next future opportunities are. We have people like before and start companies, they were looking, how can this be done? And we also have lots of people, and you might be one of them who isn't in the battery industry. They're just curious. They're like, what is this world? What does it mean? Maybe you want to join one day. Maybe you don't want to join one day, but you just want to, you know, learn more about it. And I think, yeah, for them, especially the data sharing and sharing of the real world and also personal stories are so important. Yeah. And on the point of sharing, I mean, in terms of even what type of data should you be sharing in order to understand performance, state of health?

10:16I mean, Chi Chow mentioned electrochemical data, temperature and pressure data seem to be top of the list for them, even though they measure thousands of data points. But these seem to be the ones, you know, that are most important to be measuring. And that's also valuable and an insight for people to understand. So even to the point of what did you find to be the most important data to gather? That's something that the industry can benefit from. But I totally agree about the personal stories, sharing the highs and the lows. And I think that's quite appreciated to be this honest on a podcast in a live setting, especially where audience can ask questions. Absolutely. And of course, there's probably always even more stories behind it than we would know. But as you say, I think, you know, it's definitely, I think the willingness to it is really important. And maybe one last thing also on my end, I think, as you say, this data standardization, very fascinating topic.

11:11We have currently also a little small project on this with battery associates and looking at battery data standards. Also, it's a battery testing, battery cycle, we have in works. And also, I know in the BatteryMBA, we talk about standardization so much. And really, there's so many aspects to it, right? From cells to the packs to the, I mean, even packs, I think people got very confused that there's no real, you know, standard either than, you know, looking on the testing, as you said, on the, also, yeah, I think there's so many other questions around this where, you know, standards could come into play. And yeah, I think, I think we're going to keep talking about it. I'm sure I was in the coming year. Yeah, we'll keep talking about it because it's a very important topic. And in terms of the data standardization, I mean, is there, is there anything that you'd like to share about, you know, the solid-state report or anything like that, Simon?

11:56Great point. Yeah. So yeah, maybe that's a really excellent point. So we have actually a white paper on the solid-state batteries, which is a bit about a year old now. It has been really well received all around the world, you know, from all the major organizations. So we, you know, we have a form in there. So asking for that, and we have been really amazed by the, by the reception. We know a lot of people, you know, yeah, I love industry players, but also academia and investment, et cetera. I've been reading that. So if you just Google, I think battery white paper, solid-state white paper, I think it's a second or so on Google, or you just go on battery.associate slash white paper, I think. Look on there. We're actually going to release soon a little update. That's a bit of like, you know, what are the maybe updates since then? And it's also going to talk more about the requirements. So I think this podcast also came very handy because it's just about to be released.

12:41And yeah, I think, you know, I think our team writing it also has been listening to a podcast very carefully. That's wonderful. Yeah. Can't wait to read that. Same. And yeah, with this, maybe we can, we will wrap it up for today in interest of time. But I think I just want to say a massive thank you, Mariam, for being an absolute amazing co-host this year and really stepping up. And I think, you know, we really enjoyed all of the conversations and discussions we had over the year. And yeah, also for the new year, I'm very excited. I think we have a lot to cover. We have a lot to cover. People tend to ask me, Simon, what are these podcasts? And you know, why can you only talk about batteries? I'm like, we haven't even scratched the surface. We're in the beginning. We covered a lot, but still so much more to cover. And yeah, maybe also one last invitation, especially also, I always try to get also more diversity.

13:28So if you're like a field founder or an organization, if you're less represented in the current battery industry, also please reach out to us. We're trying to find you too, but, you know, always love to hear from you. And also in general, if you're interested to appear on this podcast this year, I think we had more people also who have been, you know, contacting us and say, hey, I want to tell my story. I want to be on there, which is really helpful for us also from an organization standpoint. So please get in touch with that as well. But otherwise, Mariam, I just want to wish you a wonderful holiday season and really excited for our next session next year. Yeah. Happy holidays and can't wait for all the topics next year. I feel like even if we revisit topics that we already talked about, they're going to be huge updates. So thank you so much, Simon. And to everyone, happy holidays and excited for you to be listening to the podcasts.

14:13Bye-bye. Bye-bye.