Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Li-metal batteries with SES AI

0:00Transcript

0:01Today's topic is lithium metal batteries with Chi Chow and Mark. Just a quick intro on Who We Are, Battery Evolution, Battery Insiders podcast. This is our 57th podcast and we talk every month about all things battery related. I'm Maryam, I'm one of the co-hosts of the podcast, also co-founder at Pulsenix. We make hardware to characterize batteries among other electrochemical technologies. And I'll hand it over to Simon to introduce a little bit more about the podcast as well as the speakers today. Thank you so much, Maryam. Yeah, as you said, very excited for our final podcast of this year. This podcast has been running a few years now. It really started during the pandemic and convening lots of battery enthusiasts all around the world around a lot of battery topics. In case you're interested to listen to any of the past podcast recordings, you can just look for Battery Insiders on any platform where you listen to podcasts such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, etc, etc.

1:04And yeah, what we're going to do today, we have another conversation as Maryam just mentioned on this topic of lithium metal batteries. We got some two fantastic speakers with us today. One is Chi Chow, CEO and founder at SES AI Company, and then also Mark Newman, founder of Electric Revolution Ventures. And yeah, they just had a really exciting event as well. Just this week, where we're discussing quite a few interesting updates, something we're also excited to hear, of course, today. So this was their annual Battery World 2022 event. So yeah, I think just for the structure of this, if you have been with us before, you know, we like to have this interactive. So please get your questions ready. We're going to have a chance for all of you to ask them in the second half today. But before we do so, we're very excited to also hear a bit of a recap of this event. And I think Chi Chow and Mark will provide that, as well as also giving us a bit of a background to the both of them.

2:01So yeah, I think we're very excited to kind of kick this off. I think if I got it right, I think Mark wanted to start this. Mark, are you ready? Yeah, hi. Thanks, Simon. Thanks, Miriam. Thanks for joining us today. Just a few quick words. Simon asked me to do a bit of an intro on myself. Just a brief intro. I mean, my background is originally as a chemical engineer, a decade or so, decade plus in the semiconductor industry and moved over to finance at Bernstein covering technology and batteries. And over the last few years, I've been doing investments in the battery space, investing in startups such as Nyabolt, a few others. And we did a SPAC with Robert Friedland, Ivanhoe Capital. And that's how I got to know, well, that's how I became closer to Chi Chow because actually we knew each other several years ago from my Bernstein role. I've hosted him several times in some of my previous work as a Bernstein analyst, hosted him as a speaker.

3:18And for the Ivanhoe SPAC, after looking at pretty much all the battery startups out there, all of the likely names won't go into them here. We picked the top of all of them was SES. And that's how we did that deal. And that leads me on to next introduce Chi Chow, who can talk a bit more about himself and SES. And then we can talk a bit about battery world. And then, of course, love to hear all your questions after that. Chi Chow, over to you. Yeah. Thanks, Mark, Simon and Marion for hosting this event. So like Mark mentioned, I started SES 10 years ago in 2012. Back then I was out of my PhD work at MIT. And then I have known Mark since 2017. And then we started working together 2021 as part of the SPAC process between SES and Ivanhoe. And then we closed the deal early this year. So we've been listed on NYSE since early this year. And then the goal of battery world.

4:33So we started doing battery world last year. Last year, 2021 was the first time we did battery world. And then this is our second time. So the main goal of doing this is really to provide a platform to share our progress with the industry. Also to have the industry and the community to talk about battery breakthroughs. All the challenges, all the issues in the more in-depth and more transparent platform. So last year, battery world 2021, we first unveiled some data, lithium metal cell data on these smaller cells for amp power cells. And then also our partnership with GM, Hyundai last year. And then this year, the most recent battery world, we unveiled data on the larger cells, 50 amp power cells. Also some data on the 100 amp power cells. And earlier this year, Honda came in. So now we have partnerships with three OEMs to basically put lithium metal cells onto EVs in the next few years. So really, it's just to provide this open, transparent platform to not just talk about the good news, because the good news tend to be incomplete, but really to talk about all the challenges and the issues and how we are solving those things.

6:01Fantastic. Thanks so much, Jiciao. And maybe, I think Mark said, maybe you want to go a bit on the recap of the battery world event, maybe some more updates. You already touched on some of them, but maybe is there a chance to go a bit more in depth, I think for everyone, for anybody who has missed the event this week? Sure. So the battery world 2022, we talked about some data on the 50 amp power cells, lithium metal, 50 amp power cells. So we talked about some energy density, low temperature, room temperature, power density, some safety data, third party safety data, and some cycle life data. And then also a comparison between the four amp power cell data that we showed last year, and the latest 50 amp power cells, and also some 100 amp power cells. And then, so from an engineering perspective, we can get the 50 amp power cells, the large cells, the performance to match quite closely to the performance of the four amp power cells.

6:57And then, so earlier this year, we, so end of last year, we started building these large 50 and 100 amp power cells, we went through a lot of problems, but then we also solve a lot of these problems. And now, now the performance of the large cells can come very close to match the performance of the four amp power cells. So that's good progress. And then we also talk about supply chain. So supply chain for us in pre-commercial stage is really about degrees of freedom. And SES, so we started in 2012. And then up until 2015, we only focus on one particular aspect, and that was electrolyte. And then since then, we added anode, cathode, separator coating, cell technology, cell manufacturing, equipment design, cell design, engineering, and then BMS charge and discharge algorithms to improve the safety and cycle life of lithium metal cells. And then also recently, we also went further upstream, free electrolyte. We started making our own solvent, our own salt, because you can't buy a lot of these things on the commercial market.

8:16And then you really have to make a lot of these things in-house. And then anode. We used to take anode for granted, just a piece of lithium foil on copper. And then, but then that also had a lot of issues with performance and also limitations to how to, in terms of what you can do, what you can change to really improve things. So then we took the entire anode process in-house, basically from ingus to the final anode. We make the entire thing in-house. And then, so we started working on our supply chain. And then again, for pre-commercial, that's basically R&D, R&D, pre-A sample, A sample, and all the way up until B sample. So having this robust supply chain for us is really about having more degrees of freedom, so that we can change things, we can improve things. Without controlling basically every aspect, we found it's impossible for us to meet the OEM specs. And then we've been working with these OEMs. For us to meet their specs, we realized we just had to control everything.

9:29Like control everything, every material, every step in our entire process. Even if you don't want to, you have to. So just only by controlling everything, you have enough degrees of freedom to meet their full-blown specs. And then we had a lot of problems, solved a lot of problems this year. And then next year we expect to enter into B sample. And B sample, and then later, and then hopefully we can become commercial. And then get to C sample, and then start of production. Once we get to the second half of B sample, then the supply chain will become about lowering cost, and then increasing robustness, and then scale. And once you get to the second stage of B sample, cost becomes everything. So in Better World 2022, we unveiled the data on the big cells. We talk a lot about supply chain, because now we are in B sample, sorry, we are in A sample, transition to B sample. And in addition to the cell performance, this degree of freedom and this getting ready to have a robust supply chain is really important, not just to us, but also to our OEM partners.

10:47So those are the main things we cover in Better World 2022. So maybe I'll, this is Mark again, maybe I'll go a bit into the panel discussion, which I hosted, which was right on the back of, right after Chichao's keynote. We had guests from the three big car OEM partners of SES. So that's General Motors, Hyundai, and Honda. We also had Robert Friedland, founder and executive chairman of Ivanhoe Mines and Ivano Electric. And we also had a representative from Tianxi, which is a lithium miner. So Ivanhoe, if you don't know, they are big miners in nickel, cobalt, copper, all the big battery metals. Tianxi is a big lithium miner and processor. And then Chichao from SES. So those were the five, sorry, six panelists, plus myself as the host. And just give a brief summary about what we talked about. I mean, of course, you can access the recording. It's available on YouTube and we'll be sending out, well, SES will be sending out, I'll be sending out as well, copies of that if you haven't seen it yet, copies of the recording.

12:12But there's three kind of areas we covered. You know, first area was just talking about new technologies in general. And I was asking the panels about, the panel speakers about, you know, how difficult is it to introduce new technologies, considering the big ramp ahead of us. And there was a lot of comments on how, you know, a lot of the panelists, particularly the car OEMs, particularly excited about SES technology. SES is lithium metal technology. They've also got, of course, some of their own other things that are working on on the side. But I think in general, SES is the one that they're just generalizing. I don't want to put words in their mouth, but I believe they would always agree that SES is the one they're most excited about. And, but, but, but of course, it's difficult to not, not just, not just the work that Gichao is doing on the, on the development, but actually the ramping, which is, which is now what we're starting to look at and worry about.

13:24How is it going to be ramped? And for these car companies, they're also worried about how do you introduce it to, to the next car platform? GM, one of the things GM mentioned that's a particular note is how their, you know, their platform, their Ultium platform is like a plug and play. So the batteries they're working with SES are going to be plug and play with what they're currently using. Same size, same format, exactly. So that reduces their risk somewhat. Um, the second topic, just in terms of the new technologies themselves, uh, we, we talked a bit about various different technologies, uh, going into the electric car of the future. Yeah. Most of the discussion was on battery technologies, um, predominantly lithium metal. You know, I'm sure, you know, lithium metal is the, um, that's the innovation on the anode side. Um, and you have a few different ways to implement that. You have the, um, uh, SES approach, uh, some might call a hybrid, some might call it a liquid based electrolyte.

14:30It's a more conventional approach, um, where you have, uh, an actual, uh, liquid or, um, uh, solvent in salt, uh, as SES calls it, uh, electrolyte. Um, but there's also these solid-state alternatives as well. And a few of the car companies talked a bit about those, but there's challenges, um, in both, but particularly with the, um, solid-state approach. Um, and then finally, uh, going upstream, uh, the third topic we talked about, I spent quite a lot of time on is, you know, how each of these companies, uh, not including SES and the car companies and the raw material providers, the miners, how are they dealing with these huge supply chain, uh, ramp, uh, issues? Um, you know, particularly, you know, got this huge, you've got this huge unprecedented ramp happening in terms of demand, but at the same time, uh, introducing new technologies. And in addition, in parallel to that, you've got this new somewhat political uncertainty with the kind of tensions we're seeing, um, between, you know, particularly US and China.

15:44And there's some, uh, somewhat, you know, decoupling of Balkanization, uh, as Robert put it, uh, of supply change, which is obviously not the optimal way to do it. Um, it adds, it adds, uh, more uncertainty and complexity. Um, so there's a lot of the discussion was talking about that and, um, how each of these, uh, companies are dealing with these supply chain ramp issues. Um, a just final note for me before I hand it back to, uh, Simon is, um, I think it's, you know, of note that, um, you know, SES is already thinking about these things. Because most of the other competitors in this next-gen battery technology space, such as lithium metal, um, or pure silicon or silicon dominant anodes, uh, um, i.e. not just a sprinkler silicon, but almost all silicon, um, and solid-state. These types of new technologies, uh, you know, as far as I'm aware, they're not really looking deeply at the supply chain challenges, um, which are going to be quite immense.

16:58Uh, and, and how are they going to ramp up? Because it's all very well making a few tiny cells in the lab and having a few nice results. And maybe you can go to a few amp hours, but can you really go to a hundred amp hour cell? And can you make millions of them reliably, consistently? Um, and can you prove to the OEMs that you, uh, uh, can reproduce that time and time again, uh, and access the raw materials and the entire supply chain to ramp for a mainstream vehicle? You know, these things are difficult, uh, not completely solved, but I just give credit to SES for actually being ahead and actually, um, you know, starting to worry and work on these issues. Thank you so much, Marken and Chichao. Um, you know, in terms of the battery world, uh, topics, you really covered quite a, quite a few really important challenges, but also, um, focus areas in the, in the battery industry today.

17:57So if we take a step back and, uh, you know, Chichao and the battery world, um, events, you mentioned that, uh, hybrid lithium metal batteries, like if a lithium-ion battery in a solid-state had a baby. Can you, can you tell us why you think that lithium metal batteries are the way to go and why these, these are the best, this would be the best chemistry for the OEMs to, to incorporate into their vehicles? Yeah. Yeah. So I did say it's like a lithium-ion and, and, uh, also I'll say had a baby. Well, so, uh, it's because of the, the following. If you look at lithium metal, the cathode is the same as lithium-ion, right? We're using high nickel, uh, NCM, high nickel NCMA. That's, that's the same as lithium-ion. And then separator, the base film, same as lithium-ion, uh, produced by lithium-ion suppliers. So of course, with our own coating, uh, and then electrolyte is liquid. It's, uh, entirely our own material, our own, uh, formulation.

18:59But the, the, the whole manufacturing process is the same. The, the cell build, the, uh, stack pouch cell, that's exactly the same. And then, uh, our equipment vendor, uh, uh, is a lithium-ion cell equipment vendor. And then, and then the only key difference is the anode. So the anode in lithium-ion, you have graphite or, uh, silicon mixed together, coating on copper. In our case, we have, uh, lithium or, uh, composite lithium on, on this copper foil. So that's really the only difference. And then our internal team, the scientists are all from national labs. And then they have, they have, uh, deep expertise in the chemistry, uh, in lithium metal chemistry. But the engineers, they're all from, uh, LG, SK, CATL. They are lithium-ion engineers. And then, and then basically we're making lithium metal cells using lithium-ion manufacturing process. Um, so they share a lot of the manufacturing process, share a lot of the materials, and then also share a lot of the supply chain.

20:03Uh, and that's a good thing because, uh, when you have a new battery technology, it's very easy to demonstrate a particular attribute, but it's extremely hard. Like Mark mentioned earlier to go to the next step, a sample, B sample. It's really hard. And then the kind of problems that we are going through, I will say a lot of the next gen battery startups are not even there yet to experience those problems. So the fact that we are going through all these problems, but we can use lithium-ion supply chain, know-how, um, that actually helps us solve a lot of these problems. So, um, so that's why lithium metal is like a mix between, um, all solid-state and, uh, lithium-ion. And then your question about why I think lithium metal, uh, or, or the OEMs think lithium metal is, um, first of all, um, regardless if it's liquid or hybrid or, or solid-state, they're all lithium metal, right? Uh, and then, uh, Mark likes to say lithium metal is the end game, uh, uh, because lithium metal is what will get you the high energy density.

21:14Um, the energy density of a cell is determined by the cathode and the anode, not the electrolyte. The electrolyte can be liquid, solid, whatever. They'll have the same energy density. So we focus on lithium metal because lithium metal can get us the high energy density. Doesn't matter if it's liquid or solid. Uh, that is one thing that's important for everyone to understand. Liquid electrolyte, solid electrolyte, and, uh, sometimes we also integrate those, uh, basically to improve the cycle life. So one thing that people need to understand is the cathode and the anode determine the energy density. The electrolyte determines the safety and the performance. Um, and, and, uh, and then to the OEMs, I mean, at the end of the day, the OEMs don't really care if, if the electrolyte is solid or liquid. If you go to GM, Hyundai, Volkswagen, their internal plan, they don't have internal plans to put solid-state, uh, or lithium metal. Uh, sorry, their internal plans don't, uh, don't include, uh, solid-state, but they do have lithium-ion and lithium metal.

22:23Uh, because lithium-ion and lithium metal impact the range, the energy density. And, uh, and, um, um, um, the three OEMs I mentioned, uh, obviously they have invested in the variety of new technologies, but for next-gen, better technology that's entered into a sample full blown a sample joint development with, uh, all the, all the engineering team. We are the only one because, because we can provide a, uh, system. Um, so not only we have a new, uh, composite lithium, uh, metal anode, the new electrolyte. Uh, we can also build a cell. We are probably the best at building cells, cell engineering, cell design, cell manufacturing among the next-gen, uh, battery companies. We can also provide suitable charging, uh, protocols, algorithms. We also collect data and then we can also set all these boundary conditions so that when any of these get triggered, uh, we send a signal to the OEMs BMS. We also work on pack development. So, so we are the one, and also we, um, we are working on, uh, mining, refining, electrolyte, large plant, uh, capabilities in North America.

23:40So also on the supply chain side. Um, so they, they like us because we can provide a very complete one-stop solution for lithium metal. So, Chicha, what I heard is that, you know, I, I understood that, uh, lithium metal provides, uh, high energy density while also maintaining that scalability, uh, factor for manufacturing. But you also mentioned safety. So what you're saying is that the hybrid lithium metal that you're developing has improved safety features, uh, because of the electrolyte that you're developing as well. Yeah. So at the material level, uh, these lithium metal cells can, can achieve at least the same safety as lithium-ion cells using the same cathode. So, um, two cells, the lithium metal cell with the same cathode and the lithium-ion cell with the same cathode, they can achieve the same safety standards, uh, while the lithium metal one has higher energy density. So if you can improve the energy density and still achieve the same safety, then, then you are safer.

24:55A lot of, uh, uh, in the industry, a lot of times when people claim something is safer, the, um, the energy density is much lower. So at the material level, the cell can be as safe as lithium-ion using the same cathode, uh, while providing higher energy density. Uh, at the same time, uh, no one in the real world, including the OEMs expects the cells to be a hundred percent safe. The cells, uh, uh, will have incidents. I mean, by nature, all batteries will explode at some point. Um, so, um, this algorithm that we developed is basically to, to monitor, uh, from the incoming materials, the electrolyte cathode separator, the manufacturing process, every step. I mean, if you go see our line, we add a lot of AALT, uh, sensors and then we collect a lot of data. And then even, um, and then the cell assembly process, formation process, testing, um, even in testing, we also collect more data than lithium-ion. And then we feed all this to this, uh, software so that we can detect incidents because, uh, uh, it's impossible to not have incidents.

26:10Uh, even if you're a Panasonic CATL, even if you have parts per, per 10 million, when you have, uh, hundreds of gigawatt hours, that's, that's still tens of thousands of cells, um, having issues. So, so that you cannot avoid. So, uh, then it comes down to how do you, uh, monitor all the data, as much data as possible and then predict things. It's a combination of material, uh, and also the software prediction. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Ichao. And I think there's maybe another question, which actually I had the same similar to, to Mark. And I think I will ask it right now, which was about, you know, what are all of the steps needed essentially to commercialize or have a commercial product to do? Or have a commercial product on the market. So I think you mentioned like, you know, ACE, um, you mentioned like ACE samples and B samples, et cetera, but maybe you can even start a bit earlier. Let's imagine, you know, you're back in these MIT days.

27:04You have done, you know, your, um, you know, you got some great discovery there, or there might be another brilliant scientist in this room or anybody listening to this podcast. I'm thinking about, okay, they want to commercialize now the technology and they want to bring it on the market. They want to probably want to get it into automotive if possible, but also other applications. Yeah. Maybe if you could just walk us through like, what are the steps hurdles needed to get there and, you know, all the way through to get into an OEM. So the question is for me or Mark? Both can be either way. Works. Okay. Okay. I'll go first. Okay. So, um, I mean, I think, um, we went through, so 10 years, right? 2012 to now, the first, first, I would say five years, even six years, that's just R and D like chemistry stuff, building coin cells. And then all the way up to maybe like one M power cells.

27:54And then the next two years, two to three years, pre-A, um, then we started building these six M power cells, larger cells, same number of layers as the final cell. Uh, and then really demonstrate energy density performance, high temperature, low temperature, different cycle conditions, safety, all that. And then the last two years, then you enter a sample. Then you have to build a cell that matches the OEM final requirement. Uh, and then in the cell, you, you have to demonstrate the performance. So that's 10 years. Uh, and then, and then you go to B, uh, B is typically one to two years, basically it's a sample. And then, and then you build packs and then at the pack level, you have to demonstrate a lot of the performance. And then, uh, and then another one year or so for C sample. Um, so sometimes B and C samples are, are merged. You build packs and then you build a few dozen cars, uh, test vehicles, and then you put these packs on the test vehicles and then you test, uh, uh, real world driving conditions.

29:01And then, uh, SOP. So, so could take eventually, uh, 13 years, uh, or more, depending on how mature that, that technology you, uh, start with. And also another thing is for us, we also pivoted our technology a few times. Uh, uh, when we started, uh, it was all solid-state lithium metal, uh, uh, uh, uh, polymer base, all solid-state lithium metal. And we also did some oxide base. And in 2015, we decided, okay, that's really not that practical. And then also, um, um, at that point we started working with a few OEMs. Then we dropped that. Uh, so we switched to, so we switched to, um, hybrid lithium metal. And, uh, so I think for a lot of the, uh, uh, the entrepreneurs that want to start this, I think one thing is this does take a long time. And then at different stages you will encounter, uh, entirely new problems. Um, but also, also I think we should be open, uh, to pivoting the technology.

30:07The goal is not. So the goal is actually not to commercialize the technology. The goal is actually to build, um, a battery company. And then if the technology that you had in school was great, then good. But if it's not good, then you have to pivot. I mean, most battery companies in the U.S. Um, uh, pivoted the technology a few times. Uh, and, um, so, so, I mean, the, if the goal is to commercialize that technology, you'll probably fail. Because that technology, uh, probably doesn't work. But if the goal is to build a battery company, uh, supply it to a really cool application, focus more on the market than the technology. Then I think, uh, you have a better chance. Maybe just to add to that. Um, I think, you know, SES had this great chart in the deck about a year ago that I'm not sure if it's still in there to tell. It has the development kind of form about 10 years ago, uh, when it's like coin sales, you know, half sales, uh, one layer, two layers, eight layers, you know, all the way up to the 20, 30, 40, 20 to 30 layers where they're at now.

31:20Um, and then growing the size from, you know, these tiny coin sales, which are, you know, much less than an amp hour, you know, in the, in the million powers to single digit amp hours, you know, one amp hour, four amp hours, then all the way up. You know, stage by stage up to the 50 to 100 amp hour size, which is what, um, the last data was demonstrating on the, uh, the recent 50 amp hour sale from SES. So, you know, those, those stages, uh, took a long time, right? They took you about, um, nine, 10 years to get from the coin sale to the 50 amp hour and 100 amp hour sale. Didn't it to tell? Yes. Yeah. And, and, and now the next step is this a sample, B sample, C sample. So, um, you know, it takes time. A lot of these companies just, just bear in mind that there might be some interesting data out there, but, um, uh, a lot of them are very, very early on.

32:22They, they haven't even got to that kind of 25, 30 layers and, you know, 50, a hundred amp hour. They're not even, they're not even there yet, let alone a sample stage. So, um, it does take a long time. Hope that's helpful. That's great. Now, thank you so much. And I think maybe just one thing also for the listeners who are like, what is an A sample? What's an B sample? You know, as far, I mean, there's probably also different definitions, but, um, you know, I think a sample is more like a prototype, B sample, almost final, Metro product and C sample is really there. So, as far as I would see it, would you agree on that? Yeah. Um, so, I mean, globally, um, different OEMs have different definitions for A, B, C samples, but the, the typical industry standards is a sample. Basically the cell format, the dimension needs to meet the dimension of the final cell that will go into the, the car.

33:14For example, GM Altium, the cell is that with that length. This is a, uh, a big wide, uh, cell. So, A sample, um, the cell format, the dimension has to match that. A sample cannot be a four amp hour cell or five amp hour cell. Um, if the current OEM is using that particular dimension, you have to fill that. So, A sample, basically the cell level dimension meets the final product spec. And then the performance, you also need to, uh, uh, almost, uh, meet the, the performance of the final product. You don't have to meet the 100%, but, uh, almost meet the performance. And then A sample, you, you build it on the pilot line. Typically, uh, half cell per minute, uh, under one cell per minute is okay. And then B sample is basically, you take A sample, same dimension, same X, Y, Z. You don't change that. And then now you build a typically five X, uh, faster. So you, you build it on a line that's five cells per minute.

34:17And then, and then you also, uh, uh, further improve the performance. And the performance basically meets the final product specs. And you also integrate the cells in, into packs and then, uh, uh, do the pack testing. Once you get a C sample, uh, so, so A sample, basically you de-risk the technology. B sample, you de-risk the manufacturing process and the supply chain. And then C sample, that's just final vehicle testing. You put the packs that you develop in B sample, and then you put them in several dozen, say 40, 50 cars. And then they will test the cars for six months to nine months in the, um, test tracks. And then run everything, uh, test the door, test the wipers, the entertainment, the electronics, the lights, but also all the different driving conditions, uh, fast drive, slow drive over bumps, over water, over potholes. Um, basically a lot of, try to simulate how in the real world people would abuse this. I think it's, it's worth noting that timelines for scaling up batteries has historically been, it taken a very long time.

35:30So, G. Chow, you mentioned 13 years, uh, sometimes to, to develop a battery chemistry to a point where it could even, uh, start to be tested. Um, uh, within, uh, you know, uh, operating conditions and so on. Uh, but in the battery world, you, uh, had mentioned that you, you've already manufactured about 1,050 amp hours and 100 amp hour cells. Um, and, you know, last year's battery world, you unveiled data on your 4 amp hour, hour cells. Um, so what has enabled that extreme scale up of, of, um, of your batteries? Essentially, what is it that is the key that, that is enabling you to be able to develop 100 amp hour cells when a lot of maybe industrial players are unable to get to that point? So I think, um, so on the scale up part, the one thing is we are making lithium metal cells using lithium-ion process. Um, because the lithium-ion process is already very mature. The equipment, um, the, the talent, the engineers, the process, um, basically they are already there.

36:39Some companies that develop next-gen lithium metal cells, they have to develop the equipment. Well, or even the process for the equipment to make this. So that's, that's challenging. Uh, uh, two things do happen in parallel, the process development and the equipment, and also the materials. Um, um, um, even if you have the process and the equipment scaled up, uh, if the final cell does not meet the OEM specs, then say you're just making garbage in a very automated high quality way. Right? So we also, um, spend a lot of time developing the chemistry. So I would say this, this long period, most of that is, is still chemistry material development. Because that, that's the, the hard part. And then, and, uh, uh, 30% or so of that is, uh, is the manufacturing process scale up. So Chi Chow can you tell us a bit more about the avatar that you're building? So you mentioned that you are essentially controlling, you know, the vision is to control the entire supply chain because you have to, not because you want to.

37:46And taking data from different parts of the supply chain, feeding that into an avatar that allows you to actually, um, evaluate the state of health of your batteries in a very accurate manner. Can you tell us a bit more about that philosophy? Yeah. So, um, the problem that we're trying to solve is when the energy density of, of the battery gets higher and also the, the individual cell capacity of the battery gets higher, uh, the batteries become more dangerous. And that's just fundamental chemistry. Doesn't matter what, what, uh, system you have, even if you make an all solid, say lithium metal, if you put a high nickel cathode and then you build 120 amp hour, high nickel cathode also. So, uh, uh, because of this, but the industry is heading down this trend, um, higher energy density, higher capacity per cell. So then how do you improve the safety? Because the, the cell level, um, uh, safety is getting worse. That's, that's the industry trend.

38:51And it's, um, um, and I think we are hitting the limit to improve the safety just purely by materials. Um, so the approach is let's use software and most of the, uh, uh, uh, field incidents, for example, the recall that GM had, Hyundai had with the LG batteries. And then in the past Samsung batteries, and then also Panasonic Tesla batteries, a lot of the incidents are due to manufacturing issues. And for example, if you look at the entire process, you have, you start with the mine and then you refine into carbonate or hydroxide. And then you produce cathode electrolytes, uh, separate anode, uh, uh, uh, starting this step, if you're using a high nickel cathode. Um, so we collect all the data, uh, different cathodes have different, uh, safety behaviors. And then, and then in the, uh, cell building process, so we, we do very rigorous, uh, quality control of the incoming materials. And then we collect data on, on all the steps. For example, when, uh, on the anode, when you punch it out, if you use laser cutting and, uh, uh, and then that, uh, quite often, uh, creates a lot of copper, uh, powders in a cell.

40:13And then you have to track that. And then when you build the cells, the, the welding strength, the alignment of the electrodes, um, and then electrolyte filling. Sometimes the filling is not that uniform because the cell is so large, the formation process during the formation process, all the data, chemical data. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Can you hear me? I think it's a bit, a bit shifter, but it's okay. We can hear you. Oh, okay. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. So, um, and then all the chemical data, the, uh, pressure data, um, basically try to collect all this data. And then, so all this process manufacturing to formation up until the cell comes out, we call this the, uh, pre-birth data. It's like the baby inside the mom's womb. And then you collect all this data and then the cell comes out. So after birth, um, and then we, um, um, collect those data because different, uh, drivers, when they drive this, the, the car, they charge it differently.

41:12They drive it differently. Some people driving cold place. Some people driving hot place. They drive over potholes and it's raining and they are very aggressive. Some people use a fast charge much, much more often than, uh, others. Some people use very nice, slow charge. So we try to collect all this data. Um, it's like a person, right? A, uh, how long this person lives. Uh, part of that is based on this person's gene, the DNA, uh, pre-birth. Um, and then, uh, and then also part of this is, uh, uh, lifestyle diet, all that. And the number one goal is to predict incident, um, because, because the OEMs know, um, uh, just doesn't matter what batteries, uh, you use. Um, um, um, if we use the conventional way, these cells will have a chance of having an incident and then they'll have a recall. So how can we monitor things so that we can predict things and then turn these safety incidents, these field recalls to maintenance.

42:17So if you can predict that, for example, based on all the data you collect and the cell is fading. Okay. Then before you have an incident, you take it to a shop and then, and then do it, do a maintenance. Um, maybe you, you perform a, uh, uh, charge and discharge cycle protocol to, to heal the battery. If it's too bad, then you have to change the, the battery pack. So the number one goal is to save money from, uh, recalls, just safety. And then number two, uh, is once you can actually predict the state of health of these batteries, um, uh, then to the OEMs and then to the insurance companies, it's very valuable because then you can, you can connect that to, uh, vehicle insurance. Uh, and, and the premium that you pay, um, because the, the value of a electric vehicle really is just the battery health. So then you can connect that to the, uh, to the insurance and the economic value of the car.

43:17So, so then you'll have lots of interesting business models and that's the, um, um, motivation for doing avatar. So, uh, again, number one is really to ensure safety because lithium metal inherently, uh, is more sensitive to the environment than lithium-ion. This is why we have to collect all the data and then really to ensure. Thank you so much. And I think now we're going to ask my final question. And I think it's our final question before we go to go to audience questions. So please everyone already put their question in the chat, please get ready. We're going to invite you up in a moment. And I think there's also a question on data. So I think, you know, we can talk a bit about this a bit more. And now I have one final question. I'll be all for Mark. Um, think a bit more about financing. And I think you also described, right, you have done financing in different areas. So I'm just quite curious, you know, I mean, how can we finance these big, you know, transformative technologies?

44:06I mean, SPAC is not one vehicle you also have used, but I think you also have invested in different ways. Maybe you can just show a bit of a landscape. Maybe, you know, the, do you think for example, we're going to see much more SPACs in the future? It feels like there was a big wave coming. Is this a, you know, more vehicles like that? Do you think we're going to have other investment vehicles? So I'm just curious, a bit from the financing perspective, how you have seen it. Uh, yeah, thanks, Simon. Um, so a couple of things to say, I think, first of all, the market, the financial market backdrop is very weak right now. So public markets are very weak, you know, everything in this high growth, um, kind of anything where you have all the profits to the right. Um, meaning in the future, uh, you're going to have, uh, a big drop in share price when interest rates go up, right?

44:55That's just the nature of, uh, finance. And so that's why you're seeing all of these, um, companies come down 50, 60, some down 70, 80% from where they were about a year ago. Um, and so that's also hurting valuations in later stage ventures. Uh, and it's also made also related to that, but a separate issue is, uh, SPACs are getting a lot more scrutinized. There are still SPACs getting done. Um, but, uh, they are getting much more heavily scrutinized. So the, the number of SPACs getting done are less. Um, but I think, you know, it depends on where you are in fundraising. If you're talking about, you know, how do you raise money or what do you do to get money? Um, if you're an early stage, uh, battery company, then, um, you know, you, it depends, depends, depends how early, but you're going to see that valuations aren't going to be hit as much, um, because you're very early stage. Um, the latest stage ones are going to see, and I have seen already valuations come down quite a bit.

46:08So the good news is if you're early stage, valuations are not down anywhere near as much. It's also a very hot sector batteries. So, so, um, valuations aren't going to come down as much as other areas. Um, and you know, I, I, I'm personally investing and, um, through my personally and through my, uh, fund electric revolution ventures. So you can feel free to, um, reach out to me if you've got the next great, uh, idea. Um, uh, I, I, I'm hesitant to give my email, but I'll give it anyway. Hopefully I don't get bombarded with a thousand emails, but, um, my email address is mark at electric revolution.vc. Uh, feel free to send me an email if you have any great idea. Fantastic. Thanks so much, Mark. And I think now we have a lot of questions and I think before we were discussing, you know, how much time do we need? But I think we need the one of ours to just go through all of the questions we have lined up here.

47:07So I think maybe just a quick word, of course, this is a public company now, so we don't have any forward looking statements. Just to throw this in there. I don't think this will be an issue, but just to mention that for anybody asking or thinking in this direction. I think the first questions we have are from Pooja. Pooja, would you like to go first? Yeah. Um, thank you very much for the very interesting, um, discussions, especially around, uh, cell qualification. Um, that was really interesting to hear. So I just had a couple of questions. Um, the first one was, um, SCS is technology. Basically, you know, you have a lithium metal anode. Um, so basically how are you able to have a very stable plating and stripping? Um, cause obviously this will give you, you know, a good cycle life. And is this through like a stable SCI layer? Um, that's kind of formed, you know, from your liquid electrolyte or some kind of coating layer on the anode.

47:54Uh, and whether you can kind of comment on what this layer kind of looks like chemically or visually. And then my second question is, um, how do you make ultra thin, uh, lithium metal anode? And, you know, I think you mentioned, uh, Mark about supply chain issues. Um, how do you see that with, uh, lithium metal? Yeah. So on the first one, um, I mean, that's, that's basically what we do. Uh, and then even until today, we still don't completely understand the, the, the mechanism. Uh, and there are lots of papers out there talking about different mechanisms. And then also we have a lot of, uh, uh, fairly deep understanding of the, of the mechanisms, but, but we don't have a full understanding of the great, uh, of the, the, uh, real, uh, mechanism. But overall, um, this lithium plating, how do you make it uniform dense? Um, how do you plate lithium as opposed to like some mossy lithium compound? That's really hard. And then, um, for us as a combination of this electrolyte, this electrolyte, and then how it, uh, it has high clombic efficiency.

49:04It doesn't consume as much electrolyte. It doesn't consume as much lithium. Um, because each time you plate and discharge, you, you will, uh, uh, uh, form some type of layer. A combination of this, uh, also this protective coating, and then how this, uh, this can make the, the plate in more uniform, uh, slow down the consumption of either the electrolyte or the, the anode, uh, as well as, uh, uh, uh, so these are stuff inside the cell. And then outside the cell, how do you apply the pressure? Um, um, um, um, and then what amount pressure? And how do you apply it uniformly? And also what current do you, do you apply? Uh, constant current or some, uh, more complex, but more favorable protocols. Um, and also when you build a cell, how do you design the cell? And then how do you fill the electrolyte? How do you, how do you form? Um, so it's a combination of a lot of things. Uh, and then it's really complicated.

50:12And, and then on your second question about lithium metal anode, um, we have been exploring several different ways of coating this thin lithium, um, including, uh, extrusion, lamination, uh, thermal evaporation, coating, uh, basically, uh, a few. Uh, and then now we're using one approach that we like, uh, and then it's, uh, based on a combination of, it's capable of delivering this wide width thin lithium foil, as well as it gives it, it gives us the flexibility so that we can add materials to lithium to improve the performance. Um, and then in terms of the supply chain, so currently this lithium anode really doesn't really have a supply chain. A lot of the vendors in the world today, they're just really fragmented. You have, uh, one company that would basically supply a low grade ingot. Another company would purify the ingot to a better grade and then either roll it down to thin foil or evaporate it. And then in the past we will laminate it onto copper.

51:24So you have several companies, just different step in the whole process, very inefficient. And then, and then if you want to change something, uh, um, it's really hard. So now, now we're doing this whole thing in house, uh, from ingot to the final anode. We're doing everything in house. It's more efficient. Also, um, earlier I said, it's, um, it's another degree of freedom. If you want to change the material, add something to it, then we can do it. Yeah. I'm not sure if the supply chain, uh, question was meant for me, but I think Chachao's already answered it very well. So I don't really have much to add unless there was anything specific for me on that. No, I think it was, um, yeah, just as, as you kind of mentioned that there's no supplier right now that I've seen for like thin film foil. So yeah, I just wanted to see. It's interesting that you do it in house. Um, I don't know if there's any cost considerations to do with that.

52:17It was maybe something that you could mark. Yeah. Um, sorry. So, uh, I mean, there are some companies that can provide you samples, but for us, for example, this one, 100 amp hour cell, we'll need about 40 meters of this thin lithium foil. Right. Uh, and then we, uh, we build thousands of these cells, um, uh, in a few months. So we really need tens of tens of thousands of meters, um, of these materials and no one can really, uh, provide this at scale. The cost of this, um, at least for us has come down by about two orders of magnitude. When we buy this thin lithium foil, it needs to come down by another order of magnitude, um, to become cost competitive. But, um, but I think it's, it's, it's possible. Thank you so much, uh, Prudja for your question. And, um, Esteban had to leave, but he left a question in the chat, uh, piggybacking on, uh, Pudja's question. How do you solve surface homogeneity in a large format cells, both on the anode and separator to avoid localized lithium plating or hotspots?

53:30And you did touch a little bit on that, uh, Chicha. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, there's no one thing you can do, uh, as a combination of co-culture, electrolyte protective layer, the, uh, cell build, uh, in the past when we first started building these large cells, the quality was bad. And then cells would die just because the, the plating, electrolyte filling, soaking, all those just were not uniform. But now a lot of those have improved a lot. Fantastic. I'm just looking through the chat and I see the next question is, uh, Mark's question. Mark, do you want to ask your question? Mark Strauss. There are two marks on the speaker panel. I think we might already have that question, right? This was about the A and B samples. I think we already have been covering the question. Um, right. Mark had another question though. Yeah. Are you there to, to ask it Mark or should we ask it for you? Otherwise we can also, when we go to Erin first, I think we had another question there as well.

54:29Should we go to Erin? Yeah. Um, thank you very much. Um, thank you very much, um, Dato for the nice conversation so far. I think my question is about, um, how you'll say performing comparison to say competitors like QBIC, um, in terms of cycle life under moderate conditions and also your safety test. Particularly what would be interesting for me would be say your internal short circuit, external short circuit, crush, and maybe thermal stability. Do you have these results? Um, is it okay for you to share this result with us today? Yeah, we, uh, published these, uh, results, uh, nail penetration, thermal, external short circuit, high temperature, uh, third party testing. We published these, uh, uh, data. We also published some, uh, cycle life under different charge and discharge conditions, all based on the 50 amp hour cells. Uh, Mark, the, um, the data are available on the website or. Um, where's. Oh, the original data, uh, that was published on the four amp hour cell.

55:33Uh, when the SPAC was, uh, the SPAC IPO, SPAC merger was going through. Uh, I'm not sure if that's still on the website, but that's through the sec filings. Um, and the recent, uh, data for, um, for this battery world, uh, that I believe is on the website. I have to check, we have to check, but I'm pretty sure it's on the website right now. But if, if you don't, if you can't find it, then just reach out to one of us or one of the people at SES and we can get it to you. It's all, it's all available. Okay. Thank you very much. Fantastic. Thank you so much both. And I think also in the recording, I think, as you said, they're also live. So maybe you can also find something there, but I think talking about data, I think Joachim's question might be, might be a good addition there. Joachim, do you want to go next? Sure. Yeah. Happy to ask my question here.

56:30Um, so you mentioned multiple times that, um, data is really central to your strategy. And I would be kind of interesting whether you can share a little bit more, like what types of data you're currently collecting during the manufacturing process or kind of like the pre-birth and then, um, also like the, the life cycle of the cells. And maybe you can, uh, you can state some examples where this data driven approach really came and helpful and save you a lot of people. and save you a lot of time already as of now. Um, because I assume like in your stage, you don't have this, um, safety incidents in the fields and then maybe, um, because you're not there yet, but maybe there's like some things in the earlier stage where this already can came in very, very helpful. Uh, yeah. So in the manufacturing process, we, we, uh, have a long list. Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's probably several hundred, almost a thousand, uh, items, uh, uh, all the data we, we check.

57:27Um, and then we do follow a very, uh, rigorous, uh, quality management. And, and, uh, and, uh, and this is, uh, uh, uh, uh, so we are, uh, constantly improving this, uh, too, with our OEM partners. One of the big, uh, the biggest aspects of these JDAs is the OEMs will actually send a quality team, uh, to our lines. And they do this all the time with, with their other, uh, battery suppliers, LG, CATL, all that to really, uh, help improve also have a deeper understanding of the whole quality process. Uh, and then the second part is, um, after manufacturing at the cell level. So again, lithium metal is a lot more sensitive to the environment than lithium-ion. And if we just work on lithium-ion, we probably would not, uh, collect this data, but we found just collecting electrochemical data is insufficient. You also need to collect pressure data. Pressure data is actually, uh, really important for lithium metal. Uh, and also in the past, we, uh, just collected, uh, all the other things that we have.

58:33Uh, just collected, uh, uh, one point, but now we are collecting, uh, a 2D map of the pressure. So we also get a sense of the uniformity, uh, and, uh, temperature. And then, uh, because we don't have a complete, I don't think anyone has a complete deep understanding of the mechanism. And then, um, uh, all the, all the physics-based models for lithium metal cells, uh, out there, including our own, uh, are not that accurate. So we rely a lot on machine learning and then use the data that we've collected. Uh, for example, the smaller cells, 4M powers, we collected, we started collecting data since 2019. Uh, and then that we have a lot of data. So the, the accuracy of the model is actually quite good. Uh, but for the 50 and the 100 M powers, we only started collecting data this year, but we have been collecting a lot of data. Um, also in the past, um, the, uh, data were inconsistent. The cells were just, just bad quality.

59:40Uh, but, um, and, and we have inconsistent cells and, uh, bad data. It's a double-edged sword. The bad thing, of course, it's hard to, uh, use it. The good thing is sometimes you can use that to, uh, train the model. Uh, train the model, but, uh, now we continue to collect, uh, more cells data, uh, collected from more cells, but also collect more, uh, diverse data from individual cells. Um, and then, uh, that's really helped, um, helped us, uh, build this model. Uh, and so now we, we rely more on the machine learning base, just, just pure database model than the physics-based model. And, and the accuracy in terms of predicting failure for the 50 MPOC cells has increased a lot. It was 0% early this year. Now it's, now it's more than 60. Uh, and then, and then going forward, um, um, we expect the quality of the cells to significantly improve. Um, and then once we have better quality cells, then we also expect this, uh, this, uh, prediction, uh, accuracy to also significantly improve.

1:00:50Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. Those are very interesting, um, details along the same lines. I mean, you mentioned you were, you're collecting all this data from the cells. Um, and also you had, you had a recent data release, right? Where you, where you made some things publicly available. So can you maybe share some of the, um, some of the reasons like why you're publishing data and, um, what your hopes are in terms of, uh, maybe also engaging community or just showcasing technology. Um, yeah, I think that would be very interesting. Yes. Um, so the main goal is to give everyone an update. Uh, I mean, we, we had data earlier this year, but they were too bad. So, so we didn't share those, but we have been sharing data, um, um, the whole time with, uh, JDA partners. It's just, this was our first time we, uh, shared data publicly. Uh, and then, um, so, well, one thing is we've improved the, the, the quality of the cells.

1:01:52And I think we've reached a milestone and then we should, uh, give the community an update, but also, uh, just in general, even from last year, um, we always wanted to, uh, to just, just, um, help the industry set a culture of, uh, transparency because the battery industry, um, quite often is, is very noisy. And then a lot of times when you have these new approaches, new claims, okay, but then what's the data? And then sometimes it's easy to show very good attributes in one aspect at the expense of other aspects. So not only you want to show data, you also want to show complete data from the same cells. Some, sometimes you, uh, you have people that, uh, optimize cells for certain tests and optimize the cells from different tests. And then you combine data from different cells. So it's very confusing. And then, uh, when, uh, we work with Mark on the spec merger, one thing was, okay, let's try to change that.

1:02:55Let's try to change this noisy, uh, situation in the industry. And then try to set some, some rules. We're not saying we're the best or anything. We're just saying when anyone evaluates any better technology, you should use these set of metrics, uh, guidelines, so that you have some objective standards to evaluate things. And I think that, that helps the industry move forward. So that's why we're doing this. If I could just add a little bit, um, yes, I think it's just a breath of fresh air, really, just to see all the data coming out from SES in this area compared to, um, there's, there are others that, uh, will just release one metric as, as you shall mentioned. So they may, um, may perform, may show energy density is excellent, but then separately in a separate test, they may report on rates or power. Um, but you know, you, you need to do both and cycle, you know, all of these things at the same time, uh, and the different temperatures.

1:04:07Uh, so, you know, uh, that's what we did, uh, during the due diligence, uh, when, uh, we were looking at SES and various others, uh, during the SPAC process, um, prior to, um, uh, selecting SES and prior to SES therefore going public. Uh, that's what we, uh, uh, uh, that's what we, uh, uh, pushed for. Um, and you know, I, I worked very hard to make sure we could get all that data. Um, and afterwards, uh, you know, GTR just agreed to just, uh, make it, uh, make it public. Um, so I think that there was a few things that were, uh, from other people that we'd interviewed that, that maybe were not completely, uh, made public. but almost everything in our due diligence on the technical side was actually shared publicly just to see all the kind of work we did. And SES has followed that up this year with the Battery World 2022 with more data on the 50 amp hour cell. So I think it's just, as I said, a breath of fresh air.

1:05:18Unlike others, they're showing all the data, good and bad. It's mostly good, though. And I think you should, you know, if you're looking at other companies, you should be, you know, bearing that in mind. I hope other battery companies can start to do more of the same because then they can be evaluated more fairly in that case. Yes. Thank you so much for sharing. I mean, those are very interesting details. And I fully agree that, I mean, we've been seeing that a lot also in academia, that there was a certain hype cycle and that certain papers would promise certain things. And then journalists would blow that up even more. Right. So then it's sometimes very hard to put that into perspective and kind of understand where we really are and where we stand in terms of innovation. And along the same lines, I mean, there's a lot of controversy whether startups are really the right approach to accelerate innovation in this kind of early stage things or whether more stuff should be done at academia where often information is more freely shared than it is at companies.

1:06:27So what were your reasons to say, like, well, actually, we should do this with the company and this is the right way forward to bring this to market already like 10 legs back, right? Yeah. So academia focused more on the concepts and also writing papers. And then when I was in my PhD in 2010, 2011, it was clear that to improve. So back then we had coin sales and academia does not care if you have a pouch cell, does not care if you solve all these engineering issues, like all the issues that we are solving and we're working hard to solve at SCS and also companies like LG, CATL. Most of the issues that they are working hard to solve, academia will not care because you can't write papers about those. Like when you solve, for example, this laser punching issue and how that creates copper particles in the cell, that's not sexy enough for a paper, right? And then when you're in academia, okay, if you have like a new concept for high concentration solvent in solid electrolyte, that's sexy.

1:07:42And then that you can publish paper. If you have a new novel concept for coding, that's sexy. But then once you have the concept from the concept to actually solving all the problems, that's not sexy. And so academia could be a good platform for early stage technology concept. But then to turn that into a practical battery, solve all the practical issues. I mean, all these practical issues are not sexy for publications. publications. So then you have to do it in a company. And then so it's not sexy enough for academia, but then these are important practical issues that you have to solve. But then if you go to like a large company, LG or CATL, they don't care enough about this to give you the resource, to give you the focus. So then you build your own company. Because then, one, you care. And two, you raise the money and then get the resource to solve all these important, very, very detailed, practical questions that are not sexy enough for publications, but very, very important to get to the final sale.

1:09:00Yeah, you touched a very interesting point there because, I mean, in academia, you said publication, right? And then all the knowledge becomes public. And then maybe it's just a few groups carrying out the same experiments in parallel. But all the kind of less sexy problems you're solving, I mean, there might be like 10 or 15 companies, like all working on the same things in parallel and not sharing information, right? So I totally see this advantage you pointed out there for bringing this to market. But then also there might be lots of things happening in parallel and more sharing could maybe help. So what are your thoughts on maybe more sharing? So they do share. Maybe not so much with the public. But, for example, like you said, there are around 10 companies actively working on this. And then our scientists, engineers, they sometimes do talk to each other. And then also the people move around, the engineers, scientists, they change their jobs. So the information does get sent around.

1:10:05Also, we're working with the same OEMs a lot of times, and then they share information. So the information gets shared, not publicly, but among the players. Yeah, thank you so much. I mean, I know it's a very tough question and there's no idea to answer. I mean, there's a lot of controversy around it and people still debating how we can really accelerate innovation and make things happen. But, yeah, thank you so much for answering all my questions. It was a great chat. Thank you. And the other thing just to add on big companies, you know, it's classic innovators dilemma. I'm not sure if you've read that book from Clayton Christensen. But big companies typically, except for extraordinary ones, they're not very good at disrupting themselves with a disruptive technology. They typically, just typically for the way that they're set up and, you know, the way that companies are set up, the way that employees are motivated financially through working for big projects. So if you're an engineer at, you know, one of these big battery companies, you probably think it's more prestigious to work on the development for, you know, the lithium-ion battery that's going in the next mainstream, you know, the next mainstream car OEM from, that's, you know, just one year.

1:11:36Just one, you know, a shorter term project that's very, very prestigious because of the huge volume. And some of these next generation ideas are more kind of back office, back, you know, backroom lab, I should say. And so maybe a little bit less prestigious. So typically, but that's not always the case. I think there's a lot of great research that comes out of big, large companies, really, really good. But not always, especially when it comes to disruptive stuff, they're often just not the right places for that. Yeah, I fully agree with that statement. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. Sure. Yes, I'm obviously biased, but I'm very pro startups to address industrial inefficiencies in the market. Mark Strauss, you had a question about the recycling, recyclability. Are you able to ask your question? Yeah, can you, can you hear me? Yeah, we can hear you. Yeah, we can hear you. Perfect. So I appreciate your, Shang, Chau, and Mark's willingness to share pleasant and unpleasant information.

1:12:44It's really important to get that sort of transparency in the market for batteries and really understand innovations. That's really helpful to people who are just trying to learn because there's sometimes a challenge when people only present shiny, sexy pictures of their technology. So my question is about the design for sustainability. Is there any considerations designed for sustainability of your cells or your packs? Is there my question? Hello, yes. Yeah, so it's very similar to lithium-ion. From a recycling perspective, the cathode is the same. So high nickel, NCM, NCMA, the recycling capability is actually quite mature for the cathode. Electrolyzed, separator, very similar. The only difference from a recycling perspective is just lithium foil versus graphite silicon mix. And then we are working, so graphite doesn't really get recycled that much currently because of, it's not economically efficient. But some companies are working on that technology. For us, we are developing a technology to recycle, cycled mossy lithium, basically after cycling, back to, say, lithium carbonate or lithium hydroxide.

1:14:16So we are working on that because that's the main difference between lithium metal and lithium-ion. But the other aspects are very similar to lithium-ion and then quite mature today. I guess one of my questions is with the packs, it's often very difficult to open up the pack and maybe test the cells or even as a recyclist, say they're all dead, for example, or bad cells, to take them out without in a more delicate way. So they can more maximize the recovery of all the materials. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at that level, actually there are companies that take packs and then basically take out all the package out and then separate the cells from the packages. There are companies that do that, commercial companies. Okay. I just don't know if there's any differences in terms of your pack design. It's a standard pack design for what I'm hearing from you. Yeah. From that perspective, quite similar to lithium-ion.

1:15:23Yeah. And it sounds like your casing for your – and I don't think you said the type of cell you're using. Was it cylindrical cells? Couch. Okay. Yes. Yeah. I don't know. I assume using steel casing for that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the pack recycling, that part, quite similar to lithium-ion. And then if you need, I can send some information on the companies that we're working with on the pack recycling. Yeah. I'd appreciate that. And thank you for your help. I don't have any more questions, but I wish your company success. Thank you. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Yeah. And I think we are pretty much out of time. And I think time always really flies. I'm sure we have many other things we could still discuss. And I think we have an engaged discussion. Yeah. Also, if you want to check into the group chat, you can also find some, you know, more resources there. Also, thanks a lot for Aaron who posted the information which was published by SAS on the website on the data from 2021 as well.

1:16:28And as also mentioned by Mark and to Chau, probably there will be more data to be found as well, you know, from the latest release this week, which was really exciting. And the presentation is already live. So we also shared the link in there and I might also share it in this event. I think, yeah, before we go maybe to the new year, just a quick outlook. Maybe, Mariam, is there anything you want to say before that? I want to say thank you so much, Chichau and Mark, for this discussion. A lot of things have been discussed, you know, typically we'll talk about a specific topic, but it seems like people were so curious about everything, you know, that goes into building a battery company from the concept of should startups be the ones pushing innovation to the manufacturing supply chain to performance and data to the actual chemistry itself. So thanks for shedding light on all of that. And, and Mark, thanks for sharing your, your email as well.

1:17:30It was a pleasure to, to do this podcast with you. Thanks very much. Appreciate that. Fantastic. So much, Chichau? Yeah. Thank you guys. And hopefully we'll have some more stuff to share in the coming year. Fantastic. Yeah, we hope so too as well. I just posted also here on this event. In case you're listening to this live, you can also click on the YouTube link there. If you want to watch the recording, we spoke about this week, but they're also sharing some more and also you can send some, some plots, et cetera, in this presentation. Yeah. This also really wraps up 2022 for us, at least from Battery Insiders, from the podcast side. And as mentioned, beginning of today's recording, you know, you can find many, many other recordings of many other podcasts over the past years on batteryinsiders.com or anywhere you listen to your podcasts, such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all of these other platforms. And we have really covered lots of interesting topics from last time, cathode production to recycling through policies and lots of other really important topics.

1:18:32And I'm sure we're also going to discuss many of them as well in the future. I think I didn't mention in the beginning, Simon here from founder of Battery Associates. Also, Mariam is one of our amazing ambassadors there. And also Pooja and others have been engaged there. And so it's a big gratitude to everyone who's been involved from that side as well, all of the editing there as well. And yeah, also if you want to maybe one quick thing, if you're interested to learn more about any of these topics, you also have a program called The BatteryMBA, which a couple of you have either lectured in or participated in. So just I thought I saw this out there as well. And then, yeah, for the next year, these sessions usually always take place on the first Saturday of the month. So I think, you know, look out for that. I think we might have one week delay in the new year just to give us a bit more time around New Year's.

1:19:17But yeah, we're going to have many other amazing speakers. We already got a few of them lined up. So hopefully many of you can tune in then either live here on Clubhouse or also as the recording. We really enjoy it. And yeah, also maybe one thing for my and myself, you know, for free to get in touch. We always love to hear from you. Many of you have reached out in the past year as well, giving feedback, thoughts. Always really appreciate that as well. And it's really fantastic to meet many of you there. With this, we are pretty much perfect on time, one of ours. I think this went by really quick, as usual, to be honest. And yeah, hopefully see many of you in the new year. And big thanks again to Jiao and Mark for spending your time with us today and really giving also a lot of personal stories. I think we just really appreciate it to hear as well. Thank you so much.

1:19:59Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thanks very much. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you all so much.