Battery Insiders Reflection - Closing the loops in the battery value chain on the example of Catena-X automotive network

0:00Transcript

0:00Welcome to Battery Insiders, your podcast providing you insights and the fascinating world of batteries. Hosted by Bhavia Chah and Simon Engelke. Welcome back, everybody. It's Bhavia and Simon here with another episode from the Battery Revolution chat room, focused this time on battery supply chains with some folks involved in Katana X, which I actually learned about for the first time on this conversation. And so that was really refreshing because hosting this podcast, I think I get to know a lot about the battery space, but this one was a little bit new for me. Happy to share with all of you during this reflection what some of the points were that we talked about. But before I jump into that, Simon, did you have any initial thoughts that you wanted to share before I give the synopsis? Yeah, no, thanks, Bhavia. And I think it was interesting because, as you say, it was a very local, East of Germany Now initiative. But interesting to see what happens when different stakeholders work together, right?

1:05And have this automotive lens. But yeah, I'm excited for your summary. Yeah, Maria Faye and Marius joined us. It seemed, obviously, they both have prior expertise in batteries. But the interesting thing we talked about was supply chain circularity and really tracking that in an open access way, which it seems like that's what Katana X does. That's what it offers. Maria Faye, I think, even mentioned that she was pleasantly surprised by how many companies are involved in this initiative, which I thought was really cool. Because we've talked to a few people who are interested in the tracking, open access database, everything, batteries and data-related space. But to actually see that this is happening was really cool. And it's a tool that I even checked out afterward after our conversation. And for those of you listening, I recommend you do the same. Of course, it raised some questions about, well, how do you get more companies involved? What does standardization look like? What is actually the cost benefit here?

2:11How can we enhance the tool and how can it be better used, right? So how does it change the game for how we think about recycled materials? And so those were some of the questions that I left with. And I think that a lot of the conversation also touched on a lot of these points and really made for a fruitful chat about something that I think is a little bit more cutting edge and different than some of our previous conversations as far as what's up and coming and what's new in the field. So that was really awesome. So thanks to you for finding speakers who could speak to this. And, you know, I think there have also been some developments, it seems like, over in Europe that maybe you could tell our audience a little bit about. Sure. Happy to, yeah. And I think also it's interesting from this perspective, right? We might have another follow-up conversation at some point because we spoke to quite a few people involved in this network and different perspectives and also other OEMs, for example, like BMW, et cetera, involved.

3:10And they were not part of this conversation, but I think, you know, there were definitely in the preparations. We were talking with them as well. And I think it was interesting as well, these different perspectives, right? I think as you just mentioned, we have Dr. Mayra Fay from SAP having more like from a data standpoint, right? And connecting all these different organizations or also connecting or digitalization, you know, and making data available within organizations. And also someone like, you know, Maris Paul, who also was part of CatenaX, but also, you know, has been a CEO of a family business, right? Which is taking apart vehicles. And of course, electric vehicles, you know, is an increasing number there. And of course, still a smaller number right now, but it's a growing number. And I think it was interesting kind of from a, you know, from a hands-on, let's say, perspective or from a, you know, from a company perspective, like what has been his experience. I think it was interesting to have these different perspectives also in this conversation.

4:05And as you mentioned, there's been quite some interesting developments since we recorded this earlier conversation with our two speakers. We're recording this now actually in between there have been some developments on the European front, especially on the European better regulation front. Especially European better regulation has been in the works for a while. It has been first been announced already in December 2020. This has been when the proposal has been presented by the European Commission on this. And this is really an overall framework, how to make the battery industry more circular, but also, you know, reduce emissions, make it more traceable. Yeah, really like, you know, make it a long lasting industry and sustainable, more in a sustainable industry. And it has a lot of requirements from emissions to recycling, et cetera, et cetera. And actually, it took another hurdle, like the major really next hurdle, which was on 14th of June, when the European Parliament approved it. So we did some other steps before that.

5:02And now it's like really, you know, very close to becoming law. Then things have a clear timeline because you just mentioned, right? Like, how do you get more organizations involved in efforts like this and data sharing and things like that? And of course, one is that they have to, right? And I think, you know, this better regulation includes a battery passport and most of the other companies we had on the podcast before, like Circle and others, include battery lines, work on, you know, battery passport concepts as well as, you know, traceability solutions. And I think, yeah, it's quite interesting to see now, you know, things becoming or going towards the direction of a law. And I think it will be very interesting to see how this then will be implemented as well in the future. I think there's still a lot of questions around that as well, like a technical implementation, for example. And I think we touched a little bit on this as well in this earlier conversation.

5:54Yeah, that this is quite complex, but still should be quite worthwhile because it's really about how can we make this industry more circular, which is one of the, I think, big aims as well we want to really think about through batteries and battery powered world. So just to clarify, like things like Katana X are mentioned in this regulation. I mean, you mentioned the battery passport, or do you think that the regulation, because it includes things like battery passport, it opens doors for things like more tracking, like what Katana X does to become part of that law? Well, I think maybe for our listeners, like how does, when something becomes a law in the EU, like, you know, what is, I mean, I've looked a little bit into this too, like implementation, what does that timeline look like? Do you have any thoughts or could you shed some light on that? Absolutely. And I think, yeah, I think in these laws, right, like you don't, you kind of mentioned what should be done, but I think not who should be doing it.

6:51And I think also I just had a quick look on this European parliament, right, the draft, the draft, I mean, Katana X, I've mentioned anywhere. It would surprise me as well, because again, I think not single initiatives, it says more what should be done. And then I think, you know, it's about a separate implementation, how it's done. And I think there also, from a legal perspective, right, you don't want to choose winners. You want to provide a playing field, right? And set like, you know, the ground rules, what has to be done, but then who does it in what way, I think it's still to be seen. I think the one big difference, though, is that's a really major development, is that we currently have a battery directive in Europe, European battery directive. And the directive means in Europe that each country has to implement themselves. And maybe you have some more things to add on this. I spent a bit of time on looking at these differences.

7:39So I think that's a big difference, right, that with European battery regulation, we have something for the entire Europe. And it's not needing individual implementation for each country the way they want to do it. It's like one European white rule book, essentially. Anything you want to add on that? Well, hopefully we'll get some spillover effects here in the US. Oh, yeah, I definitely remember the battery directive. It's like it was my first, it was like my gateway into this world. And so when I was looking into that in 2019, you mentioned the amendments, proposed amendments in December 2020. I was very much involved and, you know, very much aware of that, because it was, you know, part of my research at the time. And it's amazing to see the progress that's been made since in the continuous conversation and the more number of people who were increasing number of people who are involved in these conversations. And, you know, I think that's just like a really interesting paradigm.

8:38I often, like as an American perspective, I often find that when Europe starts to push, you know, push forward on certain things, it definitely leads other regions of the world to, they start to think about them a little bit more as well. For compliance reasons, for whatever reason it is, like, just, you know, a good way to keep things, keep pushing things forward while also hoping that we can continue to put products on the market that are compliant, comply with, you know, other jurisdictions and whatnot. And so for those reasons, I think it will definitely spur OEMs to, you know, invest in and take the time to do this type of tracking, which I don't think is something that has been, that was a priority necessarily before. But I think initiatives like this, rules like this, of course, directives like this will continue to push OEMs on this. Absolutely. And I think that's also kind of the excitement, right? And I think of all this Inflation Reduction Act and things, and these initiatives and, like, programs around the world, you know, there's, you know, a race there.

9:46And then, of course, always the question with regulation is, will it, like, you know, help rather than hinder? And I think there's also different approaches different countries are taking. But I think the overall goal is really good and very, I think, important. But yeah, I think the limitation is always key. And as you say, some friendly competition, I think, in regulation might necessarily be a worse thing. And that would be interesting to say, as you say, I think the US in some way could also do a big push there, right? And maybe not move all of them, but I already have in some way through the Inflation Reduction Act, enforcing quite more local production to get, like, this report. So it's a different approach rather than regulation to, like, you know, it's a carrot and stick method and often used as a metaphor. But I think here it fits a bit as well. Absolutely. Well, I'm looking forward to having more conversations on this. I'm sure this is not the last time that we will talk about open access databases and tracing when it comes to battery supply chains and circularity.

10:46And so more to come for sure. And yeah, looking forward to our next conversation in July. And we will see all of you or hopefully tune in with all of you next on Clubhouse for our Battery Revolution session. And then, of course, our next podcast recording after that. Thanks, Fabi. I'll get to chat. Thanks. See you later.