Battery Revolution Clubhouse Recording - Closing the loops in the battery value chain on the example of Catena-X automotive network

0:00Transcript

0:00And welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for joining for our 63rd, by now already, session here on Battery Evolution, our Battery Insiders podcast. Very delighted to have you with us here. And for free to also introduce yourself in the chat, if you're listening to the live recording, or of course, if you're on Spotify, our podcast, etc. Big welcome to you as well. Today, we're delighted to have two fantastic speakers with us, Maria and Mara, so I'll quickly introduce them in the moment. We're going to talk about battery value chains, also with the experience with Catena-X, and really kind of one of these three initiatives, and how to close the gap between different stakeholders, and how can we really bring things together, and maybe also introduce more security, etc., in these topics as well. And yeah, we've got two speakers today. That's also unique in some way. Often we have one, but today we'd like to have two. As mentioned earlier, one we have Dr. Maria Faye, who is currently at SAP, and is the Sustainability and Incubation Director over there.

1:04Furthermore, we also got another speaker with us, Marius Paul, who has been also with the, he was the CEO of LRP Auto Recycling for over four years or so, which I think is really fascinating as well, from the cycling end, but also has been a member of the guidance board, came here at Catena-X Automotive Network, as well as also Maria. She also is involved in the Catena-X as well. So both of them have quite a bit of range of experience. We're delighted to have them with us and sharing the experience and also in general the topics. So with this, maybe we could start with Maria, maybe just if you could introduce yourself a bit, maybe also how we got into this topic of, you know, maybe now batteries, but also supply chain, Catena-X, etc. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for the invitation and for the introduction, Simon, and hello, everybody. Yes, so as mentioned, I'm with SAP and actually, well, I've been in consulting already for a few years before, let's say, I have moved into the area of sustainability and circular economy, which I find fascinating, especially since I joined the Catena-X program, which is really a huge initiative.

2:14It is really amazing how many companies are in one value chain and at the same time, how much do they actually sometimes lack information. And especially in the context of batteries and in the context of circular economy, each time, you know, we talk about two different companies, we hear that it would have been great to have informational material composition. So when I'm working on production data and so on, then I could take different decisions on what can I do with them with a certain component. Actually, my focus is not only batteries, but everything around the secondary materials and components. So, yeah, I find that the discussion today would definitely bring a lot of value, hopefully also to you. And handing over to Marius. Thank you very much, Maria. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Simon. Yeah, my name is Marius Pohl. I'm 30 years old now. I worked the last four years for my family company, or I call it like this, for the family business.

3:27I joined the company four years ago and had the opportunity to join the Catena-X network when it started. It was cold at the moment when we joined still automotive alliance. It was more consortia of some companies. And I got a call from BMW and they were, they talked about this crazy consortia that got together. And we wanted to shape the digital future. And, yeah, first, I expected that all the people that are telling me the stories about a closed loop digital chain, that they're totally crazy and this will never happen. But somehow they figured it out. And, yeah, here I am today talking with you guys. And I'm very happy to be here and hope we can figure out some interesting topic for you, Scott. Great. Thank you so much. And also for anybody who's curious, I also put the link for Catena-X in the chat as well. So anybody can look there or you can also look at it in the show notes.

4:38Because, yeah, there's quite a bit. I think you might want to look at it. And, of course, there's a lot to be shared as well. Thank you, O.D., Maria and Maris, for this quick introduction. And maybe now we can start a bit also exploring some topics. And, of course, we want to make this interactive as well. So anybody here listening live, feel free to also put your questions in the chat. Or you can also raise them then to discuss them as well. So I think in the discussion before, also we looked at different kind of, you know, different stakeholders and different steps in the battery value chain. And why maybe, you know, the data exchange can be quite important. Here again is Catena-X, right? It's a little bit about a mixed change. And, of course, there's also other organizations out there. Like, you know, the battery lines, for example, your battery powers and a lot of other initiatives, which I think are doing important work as well.

5:24But maybe also here in the context of this automotive network and Catena-X, maybe Maria, you could also maybe share a bit about, you know, maybe some of the, what are some of the most prominent topics where people are interested in exchange? I think we spoke about Catherine Matures before and others like that. So just curious, maybe what are some of your learnings? What are maybe the strongest drivers for exchange for people willing to actually share data? Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's important to understand in general that Catena-X is more than just about batteries. So indeed, Catena-X is an automotive industry network and data ecosystem that is building on several principles like data sovereignty, interoperability and so on. So there are really multiple topics that we tackle within the program. So one of them being, for instance, traceability of materials, another one being circular economy. So this is where I am originally, let's say, coming from. So everything around closing the loops and what is needed in order to make sure that at the end of a life cycle of a component or of a whole vehicle, those materials are not lost, but that they are being reused, remanufactured, refurbished.

6:44And of course, in order to make it happen, somebody in the end of a life cycle, which is often, let's say, a workshop, a dismantler, a recycling company, they need information on what is actually in the car. What are the components, what is the battery, let's say, made of chemical characteristics, maybe carbon footprint, state of health and many other, let's say, details or data points that are crucial for recyclers. And I guess Marius can pick up on that definitely to share his firsthand experience. However, this data, it's not just, you know, lying there. It needs to be shared within in the same format. So companies in the whole network basically need to agree that weight is measured, I don't know, in kilos and not in grams or in tons. And state of house, state of health is measured, how CO, football, sorry, product carbon footprint is measured. And so this is basically what KTNX is working on. Also such standards agreeing on certain data models so that this information and if we talk about battery, of course, battery pass contains a really huge amount of crucial information.

8:25So that it's all being shared in the proper data solver and way so that the company that is in the beginning of a life cycle that is producing maybe a cathode active material, that they share it with a battery producer that is being shared with a further with a recycler and so on. So it's really a lot of components. Those are multiple components that are involved. And I think that's what makes it exciting. So Marius, maybe you could share on the perspective, what is important in the end of the life cycle? What do you need to know about batteries? Yeah, thank you, Maria. So maybe I have to go a little bit back again and maybe I will explain you first what was my challenge or what was my problem to solve at my old company at the LLP. So when you look at small and medium enterprises, then you look at companies, they have a lot, have not an own IT. They don't have an CIO.

9:45They don't have like the knowledge to do data exchange and stuff. Most of the time there are smaller companies that are mostly family businesses in Germany. It's like this. And they take care about the whole dismantling process of a car right now in Germany or all over Europe. It's pretty much the same. And when you look at these companies, they don't have a high technology, a high technology, technology level of IT infrastructure. I would call it, I would call it like this. And it's very hard for them to even track or make it traceable what they have in their stock. And also what can they make out of it. So for us, the problem to solve was pretty much to get informations that are in the automotive chain. And they got lost on the way to the dismantling process. Somehow, somewhere, somehow, we first have all the informations from the car and we get less and less all over the life cycle. And when we got a car, we don't really have more than a VIN number and the car was in front of us.

11:04But we never really had the information. If there is like a diesel engine inside of it or if there are any parts that have a value for maybe other stakeholders as well. Or when we look at critical raw materials, for example, for the catalysator, we never really could track how much rhodium, platinum, platinum, it's really inside of it. So this was a little bit critical because it was always a bet when we bought a car. And when we look now at the process of the battery material, we really need to know what kind of material is inside the car, how much value we can expect out of it. And to bring the battery to the right recycling process, we need the information along the value chain for it to get in touch with the right recycling processes. And this can CatenaX fix. Because CatenaX can bring all these informations together and make it very, very easy for small and medium enterprises to get the right information to scale the business up.

12:26And this is very hard for small and medium enterprises because normally they don't have the funding for like the whole software that you normally need to make this possible. When I talk about small and medium enterprises, even we were small and medium enterprises at the LRP, we dismantled about 12,000 cars a year. And even for us, it was really challenging to build up software that could fix these problems. And with the battery pass that will come in the future, what we can gain from the CatenaX network, we will be able to reduce the material that we really have to throw away. We can look if we can bring the batteries for a second use, for a reuse to maybe a different company, maybe for a solar panel. And we really help to get the sustainability in the car in the white loop. Because at the moment, when I look at the last year of my work at the LRP, there were very less of high voltage battery cars that came into this process.

13:59They went somewhere else, they went to different countries to get repaired and stuff. And it was very critical for us to even get to this input in our company. And we really hope that when we can close the loops closer and closer, that we will be able to collect more material and get a higher value material out of it. Because when we understand what's inside of it, we can really make the processes better and better. Great. Thank you very much for sharing both. I think interesting perspectives already. Maybe just to follow up a bit on this, because I think also, Marius, I think you give a lot of reasons why something like this can make sense, but also maybe some of the challenges. Because of course, data exchange also, maybe someone doesn't want to change with each other all the information. I'm just curious, what you have seen on this regard? Has this been a big challenge with other stakeholders? Do people concerned with what they want to share?

15:00Or how you build up maybe the different layers, what is being shared? Well, it's different for each, let's say, piece of data or data model, of course. So we are definitely not talking any personal data. So everything is just really on the level of certain components and so on, or bills of materials. And each company is basically the owner of their data. So within Caterina, within the standards, what is being defined are data models. So you say that each company that would like to, let's say the example of weight, I think it's a really easy one, that they need to have it as an integral type and measured in kilos, not in tons, not in grams. The same, I mean, with maybe amount of lithium in a battery or nickel, the same with the state of health, that it's all same format. So this is, of course, this, of course, means that companies that are providing the data, they also need to ensure that the data is being transformed into the right format before sharing.

16:30So this is a certain effort. Of course, also within Catena-X, that is building on the principle of actually a large European data system, Gaia X, there are really multiple mechanisms to ensure that the data is not, you know, influencing some competitive processes. So if you're in OEM, you would like to share your data maybe only with your customer and with your supplier, not with your competitor. And this is really being achieved through multiple mechanisms, such as access policies, user roles, and so on. So, I mean, it's, of course, work or something that we have been deeply engaged with since it's now multiple months or even years. But this is something that really guarantees or makes sure that companies can sleep well or can share their data without any concerns because we have hopefully thought of all of the situations and implemented the right mechanisms. Yeah, Marius, maybe there are some other topics that you see? Yeah, I mean, it's always the question about trust and Catena-X is a lot about trust.

18:10It's about trust into each other. It's about trust and to work with each other. But it's mainly about security as well, that you are completely in control of your own data. And really, you decide with who you want to exchange these status. When I look at my personal view, I always struggled a little bit in the beginning, because I thought, oh, when somebody else would have my data, this would be critical for my business case. But I got more and more the understanding that data is just data and you don't have the knowledge behind it. And when you don't have the knowledge behind it, you don't lose your business, you can make it better when you exchange data and you're maybe not your competitors, but your direct colleagues companies that you work with understand your process and maybe what's hard for you to track. And if you're not doing that, then you get a better understanding for each other and you can help each other better out. And I think this is very important to understand. Do I really like this, that I have to share my data? Maybe not at all. Maybe not. But do I think it's necessary to challenge the future future that we have in front of us? Totally. Yes. And this is a process. This is a process that we have to go now with the container consortia and the initiative because we have to show that the data is safe and you really are your own boss about your data. And when we can show this and can build up this trust into the whole automotive chain, then I think we are just in front of completely new business cases, even through the battery value chain as well. When we look at the critical raw materials, we really have to figure out new processes because otherwise we will not able to produce in the future.

20:30Everybody knows about the critical raw materials and we really have to solve this. And maybe here's a good opportunity to break up new business cases. I think those maybe just to add up on this, Marius, I think it's an excellent point about trust and indeed it's the value that can really create positive business impact for each particular company. It's the largest, the most important motivator for everybody to proceed. Thanks for sharing. Maybe could you maybe expand a bit on some of these business cases, which could be like potential, what you maybe have seen people exploring, etc. So I think maybe also be interesting for others. Yeah, Marius, would you like to start this time? Yeah, I mean, we worked at CatinaX at something that's called like this dismantling dashboard. For us, it was important to get a better understanding what kind of material is in the car, because then we could get to different, we could make up different recycling processes. And when we looked at the recycling processes, we noticed that like every recycling process is already there. But we could not really identify the different materials inside of the car. And so we built it up this dismantling dashboard, and we could identify via a VIN number, all the material what's inside what was inside the car. And we could not change completely the workflow, but we could get better on the status quo. So when we look at plastics, maybe a little bit away from the battery, but when we looked at plastics, normally there were only like five kilograms that got dismantled, because we never really could identify the different types of plastics when we dismantled them. And with this dismantling dashboard, we were able to identify 25 kilograms of really clean plastics that we could dismantle and went through a new recycling stream.

22:53So we could get better in this process already. And this was just the beginning to show what is possible. So now we are looking for aluminium for this, well, to identify the aluminium as well. And when we get the information just in time from the automotive chain, then we can build up really good processes. And when I look into the future, then we will be able to build up cars in something like a metaverse and dismantling them on a line that is maybe not there today. But when we can build up digital trends from cars, then we will be able to dismantle them on a dismantling line as well. At the moment, it's still a lot of manual work, because we don't have this digital trends. For example, for Germany, we have about, I think, 58 million cars right now on the streets. And they don't have this digital trends. And they don't have this digital trend that we will have in the future. But when we have them, then we can build up completely new processes. And I'm excited because I think we could build up the standards right now for this digital recycling world in the future. But also, we could get an impact on the producing side as well, because we really get in touch with with the OEMs. And they talk with us, okay, what's your pain point in the recycling way. And batteries were a very big part that we talked about, because at the moment, we were just able to dismantle them. We don't really have a business case to bring them to shredding companies. And right now, they're building up there are a lot of companies that are jumping on this train and build up recycling, up recycling, big recycling centers for batteries. And I think it's very exciting to see who will win this race at the end. At the moment, there's just not enough input from the high voltage battery cars, the batteries don't really get to the dismantling companies at the moment, but they will, they really will in the future, we just have to wait a little bit longer. And then we will see how the battery pass how all this apps from Catena-X will really shape the future. And if you don't heard about Catena-X, please just look up on the website. You can look the videos. I think they're pretty good. And they give you a very good insight, what's in for you.

25:48Because this is really what Catena-X is about. It's not only the battery pass, it's not only the traceability app that's inside of it. It's like a cake. And hopefully for everyone is a good piece of cake there. Great. Thank you, Marius. I'm excited for lots of cake. Let's get to you. I like the analogy. Yeah. Maybe to add up on this. So of course, if we share also more information, then let's say there would be also potential for new companies to join, for instance, recycling capacities. And I think we all know that they need to be built for the future. Now that batteries are really with the rise of e-cars and so on. So if then those new recycling company companies that would be producing black mass or doing hydro metallurgy, if they would then really know what they can work with, what what's inside of a car, then it would of course help them also to evolve their business. But I think it's also, I'd say it's not a business opportunity for a new company, but I think it's a really interesting business opportunity for existing ones, the feedback to design.

27:11So indeed, if in the end of the life cycle, you'll find a way to close the loop and also to tell those companies that are producing cells or cathodactical materials about the material composition in terms of how easy or complex it is to be recycled. So in terms of dismantling cell to pack versus cell to module and so on, what do recyclers think? Then also companies then producing cells, modules, batteries, they would really have huge value developing their products going further or maybe taking their products back for recycling. So I think it's also not to be forgotten about this feedback to design aspect. Totally. And this is, this just opens up right now. I think greenwashing is still big in the industry, but at the moment for me, just my personal experience is that the OEMs really care about to get better, to change the process. And they didn't start now. They started years ago to translate the producing process and they really try to put the sustainability aspect in front.

28:53And I think this is, this is a completely mindset change because when I think back 10 years ago, like there was like no company on the market that put it, the sustainability so in front, like it's right now. And they really want to change. And when we, what also changes. And when we, what we're talking about is they start listening, they start listening, they start listening about the whole automotive chain and they know that they cannot solve the problem by their own. The problems that we are challenging right now in the automotive industry that are bigger than the single companies. And when you understand this, then you understand what you have to change and that we have to collaborate. And yeah, I'm just excited. I'm a fan of Catena-X. I would call it like this because I see this huge opportunities and that we will have in the future. And to go through the whole automotive chain. And when you really look at the battery recycling process, this is something that I can explain you with the catalysators as well.

30:13When you look at the recycling process from a catalysator right now, then you have like 1000 catalysators and you bring them to a company, they break them, they measure them. And then you get, then you get back the result. How much rhodium, how much platinum was, for example, inside of this 1000 catalysators. And then you have a value behind it. At the moment, it's always that they really have to measure it before or after the recycling process. When you know what's inside of your charge, before you go through the recycling process, then it totally changed the whole process. Because then you already know what's inside the box. I would call it like this. And then you can go with a completely different business model on it. And this is what Catena-X really enables. This was not possible back in the days. Great. Thanks so much for sharing. And I think there's also a few questions coming in. First one's from Mark. Mark, would you like to come on stage or are you maybe not able to speak?

31:30If not, that's not an issue. And I can ask also some questions for you. Okay, very much as well. Okay, so there may be, if Mark, you cannot join stage, no problem. So the first question was, are Asian OEMs participating in data sharing? I think we need to take a look at the list of the current Catena-X members. To be honest, I do not know exactly each company that has joined already the association and the initiative. So we can take a look at the list. Maurice, maybe you have. So there's a big interest, of course, at the moment. But not bad. The initiative was founded in Germany and went through Europe. We already got in touch with the USA and Japan as well. And we really look to looking forward to make it globally. And there's a lot of interest at the moment. But we really need to get a better understand. Or we need to bring out the standards that we developed. And the people have to get more trust in through the standards that we bring with us.

33:01But we really know that we need the Asian OEMs also inside of the Catena-X network to bring it all together. We all know how big this market is. And without them, Catena-X will not fly so high that it could. Great, thank you. And also I found the PDF with all of the different companies who are part of it. So I'm just putting it here also in the chat if people want to read it. All of the, at least the current ones, should be listed there. So maybe you want to have a look. Otherwise, also I will go to the next question maybe from Mark before we go to Wadov. Second question was here. Why aren't large dismantlers becoming battery recyclers? So at the moment, there are a lot of recyclers that are going exactly this way. When you look at companies, I will not. When you look at the bigger companies like a BISF or when you look at a Romandes or Mercedes-Benz also, they are all developing new recycling processes for high voltage batteries.

34:12But they all struggle with the input as well at the moment. As I mentioned earlier, there's too less input at the moment for this huge shredding machines that they have to build. Because otherwise there is no good value out of it. You have to think it really big that the process makes sense. At the moment, there's not enough material in the market to run this big shredding companies. And when you look at the dismantlers right now in Europe, then they have a different business model. Dismantlers have their main focus on dismantling automotive parts and sell them into a second life. And they always put this first. The second step is to go to remanufacturing process. And just the third step is a raw material recycling. And they just prioritize the reuse over the battery recycling process. And this is like the main case. When you can sell a battery for a reuse, you will get a lot of more money out of it. And then when you would bring it just to a normal recycling process.

35:47So reuse is at the moment like a lot better if you just look at the monetary on the money that you get out of it. Great. Thank you. I think Redhoff, you have another question on that or a thought. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Simon. So I had a question on this. Let's say you decide to onboard an OEM today and a second life deployer on your platform today. So it's not, I assume that it won't be as simple as just onboarding them and having an handshake. And, you know, they'll be able to off take their material and deploy it in some second life. The whole process of building a second life product has to start very early on. Let's say if you are developing a high voltage battery pack for your car. So you'll have to start looking for the suitable second life deployer who can build products out of these batteries, no matter at what stage of life they are at. So how do you go about solving such trivial issues in this whole value chain?

36:51And furthermore, in India, I'm aware of a battery waste management rule that mandates the OEMs to tie up with the recyclers on day zero itself. And to produce certificates to the government that they have handed over the material and to also show a bit of a chain of custody that this is how the material went through. However, in Europe, I'm not aware of any such government mandates in place. If they are, I'd be happy to know more about that. So what's your thought on, you know, these things not being in place and that causing a bit of lack of synchronization? Yeah, maybe I would try to answer your question as best as I could. So at the moment, CatenaX helps us to find the right partners. When earlier, when we didn't have CatenaX, we weren't able to get in touch with the automotive chain or with the with the cell producer or with the, for example, with the battery module producer, we were just not able to get in touch with them.

38:12And later on, there will be also a marketplace to on CatenaX to sell services as well. And this is what we figure out right now that we can get in touch with them and build up this business models, what you have talked about very, very early. And we will try to focus on this, but the companies have to do this a little bit by their own. CatenaX is just like the helping tool that they could use. But the business model behind it, that is something that the companies have to figure out for themselves always. And with the with the law, what you described in India, I'm not firm with this. I cannot really give you like insights out of it. Sorry for that. Understood. Understood. Great. Thank you. And I think maybe feel free to keep more questions coming as well in the chat or have my Anna also hand up. So get you up here first. Hey, man, are you able to join us?

39:19I think right now we don't see you here yet. Otherwise feel free to keep trying. At least on my end, you should be invited. Another quick question I have for you also, Marius, from just from a first-hand experience, because I think there's not too many, many people who have this experience, you know, being on the dismantling side. Maybe some of the, you know, differences you have observed now with batteries or how is it, you know, how, what are big defenses or whether maybe challenges, but also opportunities to move to EVs from a dismantling standpoint. Honestly, it's not a rocket science. It's more about, it's about safety rules that you have to follow. Because high voltage batteries are not fun. They're really not fun. They're much more critical than, than a normal car that we had before. And when you look at the dismantler, what a dismantler is doing right now in Germany, then you just dismantle a battery pack. You don't dismantle a single modules.

40:25You just dismantle the battery pack. At the moment you can sell them as reuse when you have like, write the right tests for it, that you can really prove that the battery is not damaged at all. And you can sell them to people who have the right certificates for it. But it's really not rocket science. It's more about getting more and more firm with the safety rules behind it, with the, with the access and with your business case, pretty much. Maybe there are dismantlers also that are dismantling batteries on module level. But at the moment, this is not common sense. This is, this is a little bit too deep because you need different tools to dismantle the battery. So deep, you have to follow much more straighter safety rules as well. So at the moment it really looks like that a dismantler just dismantled the battery pack, put it into a box, measure the state of health measure. If the high voltage battery still has some voltage inside of it.

41:38And then we just, they just sell it or they send it to this, to recycling factories that are from, from my understanding, then dismantle the single modules out of the battery pack and bring them to the shredding process. Cool. Thank you for sharing. And now, Mariano, would you like to go next? Yes, Simon. Thank you, Maria. And thank you, Marius, for that very interesting topic to cover. My question is, if you, the members of Cartina X, did you see a movement to, to going deeper on the ripple pose? And that means, in that case, that the, that you ask the battery manufacturer as a vehicle OEM, that, that the design of the batteries and in cell level and in module and pack or cell to pack, that it's, let's say, easy to repurpose and to change, let's say, change single cells. And then not changing all the pack. That we saw, we saw, we saw in the guarantee. And so we saw many videos on YouTube.

42:54You can see many videos on YouTube. When, when some OEMs has, when some, when some user has, let's say, some warranty with the batteries, then let's say change pack. Then that's the user what they saw, where they, they change the pack in, in all and yeah. Okay. That's it. But definitely after the warranty, then we see that they are trying to change, not the pack at all, because it's, it's costly. Then they, they change. But my question is, did you see some movements on the OEM side that looking at, at the cell level to change that and to easily repurpose and reuse? Thank you. I mean, they should, they should make it. They, but it's not a, it's not a Catena-X thing. I think I'm not completely sure if this is in the new battery regulation on the European level inside as well. Um, that. When we look at the high voltage batteries that we have dismantled in the last years, then it never really was that you just have a single damaged module inside of the battery.

44:08Um, this is not how a battery, um, how, how I can describe it as best. Um, normally when you have a high voltage battery, then it's not that a single module breaks down. This is not like how the battery, um, how the battery is damaged the most of the time. Um, normally it's like that your whole, uh, state of, uh, status of health drops down. Um, and this, the most of the time over all the modules, it's not that a single module is damaged and they lose the state of health. Like for example, 20% and you just have to change this one model and then, uh, you fix the problem. Um, this is not how a high voltage battery is, is working. Um, only when you have like a, like damaged battery from an incident, for example, then you can change single modules, but only like the experts, uh, can do this. And this is, uh, not the recyclers that are doing this. Um, these are like always the, uh, uh, the, the producer of the battery packs, um, uh, that can do this because otherwise, um, it's not possible when a module is damaged to give a warranty again on this modules.

45:35Um, we, we, we, in Germany, we can simply don't give it, there are no certificates that, uh, we can, um, bring the battery back into the market. Um, and we cannot, uh, give a certificate that it's proven already again. Um, but I've shared about this as well, that they need to, to, um, put the reuse and, um, and re-manufacturing, um, on a higher level of interest because we have seen, uh, there are different types of high voltage batteries. We have nickel, cobalt, mangan batteries that are normally pretty easy, but we also have nickel, cobalt. Um, I just know the German word, sorry for this, uh, Eisenphosphat, um, that are the batteries that are normally, um, not so, there's not a lot of value behind of it. Um, they're, they're cheaper and the thickness of energy is not so much inside of it. And they are a little bit critical, um, to, to recycle and go the recycling way with them because, uh, they, they are a different type of battery inside of it.

46:57You cannot easily change the modules out of it, even for the recycling process. Thank you. Thank you, Marius. You, uh, if, if, if I may ask, uh, a question that, uh, related with, with the, with the, with your response. What, uh, if you, if you, if you know, what are the, the, the members of the Catena-X, uh, thinking about the LFP that's make, um, somehow not always business. Maybe. Or what, what, what, if, if you know something else, uh, about that could be great. I didn't get the whole, uh, question, um, but I tried to answer it as best as possible. Um, I cannot really talk for the Catena-X, um, association. I can only talk for myself. And, um, at the moment, uh, it looks like that the LFP high voltage batteries are not so easy to recycle. And they really have to think about how to, how to challenge this, but the Catena-X can for sure help to bring the experts together and, um, maybe to build up business cases, uh, from taking back systems up to, um, new recycling processes.

48:13And Catena-X can help to get a better understanding what's inside of the battery because, um, you cannot, uh, bring, um, LFP high voltage battery together with a, like a cobalt mangan battery. Then you, the whole charge is completely destroyed. You cannot bring them together in a recycling process. You can only bring LFP, um, batteries, uh, with LFP batteries together in a recycling process and the nickel cobalt mangan batteries together in one recycling process. And the most of the time it's always about input, like how much you can get together to, to start this recycling process. And, um, when you have enough LFP batteries, then there will maybe at some point, um, also be a value out of it to build up a recycling process for them. But at the moment, uh, as I mentioned earlier, there's just not enough input to handle this batteries. I'm not really sure how, uh, the, the companies in the consortia or even the companies that are not in the consortia have a solution for this at the moment, but it's not a Catena-X, um, thing.

49:28It's more that Catena-X could help to handle this problem, but will not, uh, bring the solution for it. Thank you, Marius. And, uh, excuse me for this, uh, uh, bad connection, but no worries. But great, great insights. Great. Yeah. We were getting also towards the end of today's session. I'm just curious also may Maria, anything you would like to add maybe also, and then of course, Marius as well, maybe some of the opportunities you say, you know, like for something to happen. Of course, it's also other, you know, as you mentioned, also changes happening, regulatory changes like battery regulation, battery passports, things like that. But also, yeah, maybe, you know, what are some things you think, what could be like the potential also in next evolution, right? Like, you know, be it that every organization, every individual, everyone knows all of the, you know, important data to them or things like this or what, where, where do you see it for the future potentially?

50:28Well, it would be, if I could make a wish that there is no waste, uh, in the future, you know, that, uh, we, as, um, as companies, as, or as individuals also, manage to make a world a better place where everything is being reused, remanufactured, that not all the time new resources are being, being used, but rather the secondary ones. And I mean, this is also why we have, um, so from the SAP side, build, been building solutions, um, such as the marketplace, secondary marketplace that Marius has mentioned. Um, indeed, where to really make sure that, you know, companies that have certain, um, certain ways or components to sell that they can do so that companies that can handle this waste or old components to remanufacture them, that they find each other, that they, this demand, the supply comes together, that information that is needed for it about, um, be it production information, material composition, or anything else is being available and being shared. Um, I mean, in the end, really what it comes down to providing as much value for certain companies as possible, but, I mean, it might sound really big, making the world a bigger place.

52:00But this is something that really fascinates me in Cartena X that, you know, all of the companies and we as individuals working there, um, really want to make a difference and find solutions. I mean, it might be really hard and there might be, you know, some process difficulties or technological differences that, um, um, what Marius now mentioned, for instance, with LFP, um, LFP batteries. But in the end, um, we are all working towards one common goal. Thank you, Maria. And Marius? I think for me, it's not only about the companies, it's about the people behind it. As Maria mentioned, um, when I first heard about the Catena-X initiative, um, I really expected that this will fail like any other big project, um, what try to aim on this targets. And at the moment they showed that, uh, when people come together and challenge the future, uh, in a way with technology together, that they really can make a change and, um, change the society into a better place.

53:24And, um, I always hear that sustainability is expensive and, um, we figured out in Catena-X that this is pretty much a lie sometimes. Um, and it's, it's more an excuse to don't, to don't aim for, for different targets, uh, that they had in the past. And, um, I think we can really make this change with Catena and it can help us to trust each other a little bit more and, um, take this as, uh, how I can describe it, um, pretty much as the starting point. It's the starting point to really change something in, in this world. And, um, hopefully this change will help to grow, but there will also be companies that will not be able to get this change, this technical change. Do I like this? No, but I think also this is completely necessary, um, because the challenges that we are facing, that I'm, they are not fun. They are not, uh, they are not, okay, we can do this in 10 years.

54:50We have to try to challenge them now and we have to do it with a power that no single company has. Um, and I really looking forward to what's coming out in the next years from Catena. And, um, hopefully we only get the best. Thank you for this and for this. It's also really interesting. Yeah. I just really want to say a big thank you for both of you to, to share your insights with us. Glad to hear that you're so passionate about it. That's good to hear. I think, yeah, we need to, you know, I think we're all in for collaboration. I think that's also brings many of us in this room today as well and to see how we can support each other. So really big. Thank you for both to you, Maria and Marius for, for sharing insights with us. Of course, also everyone asking the questions, including Mark, Manor, and everyone else to listen. And, um, yeah, please, um, stay in touch.

55:41If you, if you wish so, if you have any other questions, you're free to also reach us maybe on LinkedIn or so. And otherwise we're looking forward to another of these sessions discussions in about a month's time. Whereas on the first Saturday of the month. So with this, just a big thanks everyone. I wish you all a good weekend. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you for the audience. Thanks. Have a good weekend. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.